That has actually basically happened, in South Sudan for example.
See, I'm just not convinced that the temporal and spiritual can be divided off into different categories so easily.
Manchester Arena Bombing 22.05.17
- Thread starter VeevaVee
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That has actually basically happened, in South Sudan for example.
See, I'm just not convinced that the temporal and spiritual can be divided off into different categories so easily.
Im not blaming the atrocities on western foreign policy. It's a 50 year old armed conflict and our superior armies leave this as a viable tool.
I'm saying it's circumstantial and if christians we're living in ruined cities and the hand of another religion we might use anything at our disposal.
I think it's despicable but it's not happening in a vacuum.
But he didn't find justifications for his actions based upon that faith. Not that I'm aware of.
Had some attacks on Abortion clinics in the US done by right wing Christian nutters. While not lone wolves and not religious, you have some pretty radical members of environmental groups who have committed acts of violence before.
No. I was going to add and change that actually. He even admitted he has never really been a Christian.
He came up with a rather novel ideological justification probably best described as "Western Supremacism" or something like that. There was certainly an element of Christian rhetoric and imagery which he appealed to (he praised the Crusades for example, and saw his own actions in their image). But his basic worldview was the Clash of Civilizations thesis.
What about the Planned Parenthood attacks in the US?
Ok, firstly I don't see Sudan and the almost continuous 50 year conflict in the ME as comparable, abs secondly I don't know enough about Sudan to back my first point up.
Well, the way I view it is like this. Temporal authority generally served at the behest of spiritual approval up until Luther and English Reformation. Then came the Enlightenment and the complete overthrow of the spiritual by the temporal in France (by violent revolution). The same process happened in England, but gradually, and through industrial revolution rather than any bloody conflict. Metaphysics became less and less valued in a landscape where empiricism was vital for growth. Over a long period of time, the dominant force was no longer the church or doctrine. It became secondary. The West is almost entirely secular, and for a church of any denomination to work here, it has to adapt to cultural values or else it's on the margins of society as taboo, tolerated only as a principal of free speech (WBC, for example).
When the West invades countries, it might do so with liberalizing values, but that only ever serves as the propagandist arm of temporal force. The liberalism is in itself the proselytism of bygone days under a new name. I think the two are certainly distinct in the West. The spiritual would have been extinct if not for the question of morality and theology being intertwined in some people's minds. Remove that last hurdle and religion no longer serves a purpose.
And yet a quite opposite phenomenon has occurred outside the west, especially in Islamic-centric civilisations.
A problem occurs when the west thinks its solutions are superior to those from the East and tries to impose those beliefs onto other sovereign nations.
Yeah, ok, understood. And I agree with you. To a point. I'm not sure that a desire for jihad (or the equivalent) could ever arise out of a christian country, no matter how persecuted they feel but in the absence of any concrete examples that's just speculation on my part.
The elephant in the room that no one is willing to acknowledge! Wahabi scum, the allies of the liberal west, who could have thought of this.
by the way, you should read about the beginning of the al-saud dominance and there merger with wahabis. The british used the looted wealth from India and propped up saudi-wahabi clan financially and militarily to rebel against the ottoman empire.
I don't disagree. I'm against nearly every intervention the West has made in the ME. Mainly because there have been ulterior motives, but also because morality is relative and our way isn't the only way. So, even if the liberalizing mission was all there was to it, I'd still have been against it. It's simple ethnocentrism. We shouldn't view ourselves as moral standards from which any deviation is a crime.
I'm speaking solely in imperialist terms here. It's fine to condemn people, but to do so as a method of enforcing regime change is a different matter.
I've read that the intelligence/security forces monitor up to 3500 people at any given time. That's quite a lot of potential terrorists, but if one of those people makes a trip to one of these countries, I can't help think that a lot of red flags should have been raised.
I'm not sure what you mean by "continuous 50 year conflict in the ME" but they are comparable in terms of the point being made - we haven't seen South Sudanese Christians blowing themselves up in downtown Khartoum in revenge for the horrors the north inflicted on them for a number of decades. Likewise we didn't see Vietnamese or Cambodians blowing up schoolgirls in Western countries in revenge for what the US military and its allies got up to in Indochina during the 60s and 70s.
The bolded is one of the things I was getting at.
I tend to agree. Here's a quote I like:
"the European wish to make the world in its own image is not necessarily to be disparaged as ungenerous. If one believes oneself to be the source of salvation, the wish to make others reflect oneself is not unbenign, however terrible the practices by which this desire is put into effect."
I think this applies equally to Islam and its own world mission. And hence, the apparent conflict between 'the West' and 'Islam' is due as much to what makes them similar - i.e. their universal impulse - as to what distinguishes them from each other.
There's big question marks though over whether anyone would actually know they'd been at the time. It's usually people flying to safe countries nearby and then slipping across into these places from what I understand, not just heading to Heathrow and jumping on a plane to Syria.
Western values are the most superior, most evolved on the planet. If anything, the allowed divergence of opinion on this thread alone proves that.
Syria should definitely raise suspicion, but in this case the guy's family was from Lybia and has legitimate reasons to be there.
Even if that were true, how successful do you think we'll be by imposing those values exogenously by force? If ours is the superior mode, then it won't take long for others to catch on. Revolutions have to happen from within. When it comes from without, it breeds hatred and resentment. We can't go around regime changing because we consider their values antiquated.
It's a dangerous view to take that we're more evolved and superior, though. That justifies any action you wish to name.
Like winning WW2 for example.
There aren't really many 'western values'. There are considerable differences in values between different western nations and even different regions of those nations. Values in Alabama are very little like those in Norway for instance, and Hungary has little value wise in common with say Holland.
Well WW2 in Europe was a bunch of Western Nations fighting other Western Nations.....which side had the superior moral values again, the Westerners or the Westerners?
Or Hitler's final solution, which arose from the same sense of moral/ethical and racial superiority. It's just dangerous all round.
From the Independent
Sadly familiar response.....my son is innocent says his father.
Well thank G-d the superior side one.
Goes without saying that these people who worked through the night to try and save lives were of many different faiths, including many muslims.
Inside the stadium yes. But this latest attack used different methodology. The throngs of people leaving a venue, and the security net it provides.
Took me a second viewing to see at least one asian looking dude joining in the singing. Which took the sting out of it. Until then it was uncomfortably reminiscent of Ingerland fans and their anti-IRA chants.
Couldn't get to the vigil last night so figured I'd have a walk through Albert's Square just now, there's feck all there aside from media vans and police.
I did see John Snow in St Peter's though.
I did see John Snow in St Peter's though.
Reading several posts on this and it is clear that Europe is already lost. People blaming colonialism for today's terrorism or oil and the west being involved in the Middle East but somehow forgetting the stating goal of Islam is to rule the world with the sword or As imams in Europe and in Manchester have being saying for decades they are going to breed out the native population and you lot still want accceptance of this lunacy. Most in England support hate speech laws when someone calls out this awful religion but all speech should be protected England Canada Australia Germany France etc have all gone down this path changing western values because it might offend Muslims. When 1/3 of Muslims in your country will not report someone who is about to kill innocents and your answer is still have something to say on Twitter or change your social media supporting the good Muslims? Other say it is because of poverty and while in Syria that might be a factor it wasn't here or in Boston or in Orlando this individuals had the western experience and the idiotic religion of Islam still compelled them to kill. Western men for hundreds of years have died in the millions defending Europe from Islam. Unfortunately today's men with there nihilism and narcissism are still sleeping. 1400 girls and boys raped in England by Muslim gangs hundred women are girls groped and raped in Germany and Sweden numerous attacks in Europe and you are still giving them excuses while claiming the west needs to be responsible for what we have done in the Middle East. Let's be clear most liberal leaning men have been walking around with guilt because apparently it is only the west and in particular white men who are to blame. Schools in the west, media in the west and nearly all of left leaning politics has this view. When you continually shame and blame men for decades this is the result and wether you like the term **** it is abundantly clear that it is true. Either way in the end Europe is killing itself without a real awaking your kids or grandkids will be governed under a theocracy Islamic state.
Must have been mental. So many people are going to need a lot of post trauma counselling for a long time.
Ignore
I imagine what will happen is that they will set up a cordon further out from the ground when its time to leave to control the ability of people to get near the biggest groups. The attack happened simply because the foyer of the arena is completely open to the public.
Westerners. Such as Japan?