Manchester Arena Bombing 22.05.17

rcoobc said:
The problem with this "Islamic terrorists are evil because of Islam" idea is that, it completely negates any responsibility from the West

In the past 40 years, the West (including Russia) have had wars with Libya (1986, 2011, 2014+), Syria (1976-1990, 2011+), Iraq (1990-1991, 1995-96, 2003-2011, 2014+) and Afghanistan (2001+). Each time the country or group in question is fighting a global army, 10,000 times in strength.

Why does this matter? Think about how we feel during the Paris, Brussels, or Nice attacks? Heartbroken, hurt, angry, sad. We all feel a strong affinity towards our French, Belgium, German, and American friends. And for good reason, we are now very similar, and they are our allies, brothers and sisters.

But maybe during the Turkish bombings, perhaps we didn't feel quite the same? We don't have the same strong feeling of affinity towards the Turkish people?

But for Muslims, it may be quite the opposite. The people of Iraq, Syria, Libya, they are their brothers and sisters. They feel a strong affinity towards them. I could be a real hurt that their friends are being killed and no one in the west cares.

So what, this is all our fault?

Well no. Terrorists shouldn't get to have opinions. Trump is right to call them losers. But if we want to look at the justification for terrorist actions, it's going to get complicated.

It's a crutch to say that the terrorists simply hate our freedom, but a useful one.
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That's for sure!

I just think it's unhelpful to throw our hands up in the air and say the problem is the foreign policy of the west and the only solution lies in changing it. If we could turn back time and do things differently all over again then we might be living in a utopia free of any sort of radical islamist terrorist threat (of course, we might not!) but we are where we are and we've got to find a way to fix this.
 
rcoobc said:
Wasn't there a report that the US Media were getting the sources from US Intelligence agencies?
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Its not just a report, but a fact that US intel officials were leaking stuff, despite being told to keep it to themselves. NBC were the ones who were getting the leaks.
 
Rado_N said:


Erm, exactly? feckwit.
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United cancelled their pre-match press conference with the permission of UEFA on Tuesday. It is understood that Mourinho did not want to be seen as a 'spokesperson for Manchester' after only being at the club for less than a year.
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Its from the mail, but this is the reason why United cancelled the press conference.

Ogden is an utter bellend.
 
Ban said:
They toppled Gaddafi and left it as it is...
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Yep. Sow - reap.

Unfortuantely the people who reap are you and me, not the scumbags in power who sow these seeds. It should be in law that any leader who votes for a war, should be required to either participate on the front line themselves, or have one of their children do it.
 
rcoobc said:
The problem with this "Islamic terrorists are evil because of Islam" idea is that, it completely negates any responsibility from the West

In the past 40 years, the West (including Russia) have had wars with Libya (1986, 2011, 2014+), Syria (1976-1990, 2011+), Iraq (1990-1991, 1995-96, 2003-2011, 2014+) and Afghanistan (2001+). Each time the country or group in question is fighting a global army, 10,000 times in strength.

Why does this matter? Think about how we feel during the Paris, Brussels, or Nice attacks? Heartbroken, hurt, angry, sad. We all feel a strong affinity towards our French, Belgium, German, and American friends. And for good reason, we are now very similar, and they are our allies, brothers and sisters.

But maybe during the Turkish bombings, perhaps we didn't feel quite the same? We don't have the same strong feeling of affinity towards the Turkish people?

But for Muslims, it may be quite the opposite. The people of Iraq, Syria, Libya, they are their brothers and sisters. They feel a strong affinity towards them. I could be a real hurt that their friends are being killed and no one in the west cares.

So what, this is all our fault?

Well no. Terrorists shouldn't get to have opinions. Trump is right to call them losers. But if we want to look at the justification for terrorist actions, it's going to get complicated.

It's a crutch to say that the terrorists simply hate our freedom, but a useful one.
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This..........

 
What are the likes of Blair, Aznar and Bush doing theses days? I know Barroso is in Goldman Sachs. Terrible decisions are of no consequence to western politicians.
 
I hope Rudd has warned them they'll cease all intel sharing related to this bombing if any leaks happen today.

 
I've been really pissed off by reading the phrase "known to security services". If you know who these people are - why are they free to walk the streets? The government has the power to hold these people in house arrest etc. For all intents and purposes intelligence services knew this person was a paid up member of a terrorist organisation! At the very least he should have been on tag and under house arrest.
 
Zlatattack said:
I've been really pissed off by reading the phrase "known to security services". If you know who these people are - why are they free to walk the streets? The government has the power to hold these people in house arrest etc. For all intents and purposes intelligence services knew this person was a paid up member of a terrorist organisation! At the very least he should have been on tag and under house arrest.
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Thousands of these kind of guys are "known" to the security services and its just not feasible for there to be round the clock monitoring for all these guys.

Worth remembering that to monitor one person, it takes around 20 people during a 24 hour period, so the agencies have to pool their resources to target those they believe are the highest risk.

Sadly sometimes, some suspects will fall through the net and launch attacks undetected as they were deemed to be low risk.
 
BBC has just confirmed the worst of what we feared.

A friend's brother is among those who lost their life.

Someone here reposted a Tweet yesterday made by Dan Hett about the Telegraph posting through his door. Can't imagine what he's going through now.

RIP Martyn
 
RedMist99 said:
BBC has just confirmed the worst of what we feared.

A friend's brother is among those who lost their life.

Someone here reposted a Tweet yesterday made by Dan Hett about the Telegraph posting through his door. Can't imagine what he's going through now.

RIP Martyn
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Sorry to hear that. My condolences to your friend.
 
Fergies Gum said:
Thousands of these kind of guys are "known" to the security services and its just not feasible for there to be round the clock monitoring for all these guys.

Worth remembering that to monitor one person, it takes around 20 people during a 24 hour period, so the agencies have to pool their resources to target those they believe are the highest risk.

Sadly sometimes, some suspects will fall through the net and launch attacks undetected as they were deemed to be low risk.
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I know this will sound bad, but surely prison is the solution then? Seperate prisons for known extremists.

It's a slippery slope though. I could hold the most abhorant views but i don't deserve to be imprisoned for them. However if i'd spent months in a terrorist training camp and there was proof that I had, then i should be locked up.
 
RedMist99 said:
BBC has just confirmed the worst of what we feared.

A friend's brother is among those who lost their life.

Someone here reposted a Tweet yesterday made by Dan Hett about the Telegraph posting through his door. Can't imagine what he's going through now.

RIP Martyn
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:(
 
RedMist99 said:
BBC has just confirmed the worst of what we feared.

A friend's brother is among those who lost their life.

Someone here reposted a Tweet yesterday made by Dan Hett about the Telegraph posting through his door. Can't imagine what he's going through now.

RIP Martyn
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Awful to hear. RIP.
 
RedMist99 said:
BBC has just confirmed the worst of what we feared.

A friend's brother is among those who lost their life.

Someone here reposted a Tweet yesterday made by Dan Hett about the Telegraph posting through his door. Can't imagine what he's going through now.

RIP Martyn
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Sorry to hear that. Awful news.
 
Zlatattack said:
I know this will sound bad, but surely prison is the solution then? Seperate prisons for known extremists.

It's a slippery slope though. I could hold the most abhorant views but i don't deserve to be imprisoned for them. However if i'd spent months in a terrorist training camp and there was proof that I had, then i should be locked up.
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https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Demetrius
 
RedMist99 said:
BBC has just confirmed the worst of what we feared.

A friend's brother is among those who lost their life.

Someone here reposted a Tweet yesterday made by Dan Hett about the Telegraph posting through his door. Can't imagine what he's going through now.

RIP Martyn
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Sorry mate. Condolences.
 
RedMist99 said:
BBC has just confirmed the worst of what we feared.

A friend's brother is among those who lost their life.

Someone here reposted a Tweet yesterday made by Dan Hett about the Telegraph posting through his door. Can't imagine what he's going through now.

RIP Martyn
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Condolences. RIP.
 
RedMist99 said:
BBC has just confirmed the worst of what we feared.

A friend's brother is among those who lost their life.

Someone here reposted a Tweet yesterday made by Dan Hett about the Telegraph posting through his door. Can't imagine what he's going through now.

RIP Martyn
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Just spotted this, really sorry mate, RIP.
 
RedMist99 said:
BBC has just confirmed the worst of what we feared.

A friend's brother is among those who lost their life.

Someone here reposted a Tweet yesterday made by Dan Hett about the Telegraph posting through his door. Can't imagine what he's going through now.

RIP Martyn
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That brings it home. So sorry to hear this. Condolences.
 
RedMist99 said:
BBC has just confirmed the worst of what we feared.

A friend's brother is among those who lost their life.

Someone here reposted a Tweet yesterday made by Dan Hett about the Telegraph posting through his door. Can't imagine what he's going through now.

RIP Martyn
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Condolences. :(
 
Zlatattack said:
Well maybe they just need a higher threshold of intel before they put people in these prisons? Also i don't think there'd be any need to interrogate anyone, just keep them locked up so the rest of us are safer.
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So the police can just lock up anyone they want to claim is a danger without that person even being able to present a defense or answer the charges in anyway. Sounds a bit familiar.
 
Zlatattack said:
Well maybe they just need a higher threshold of intel before they put people in these prisons? Also i don't think there'd be any need to interrogate anyone, just keep them locked up so the rest of us are safer.
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There is absolutely no grounds for imprisoning people who haven't commited a crime, absolutely none. If that day ever comes again, then we're not a democracy we're a repressive regime. Your safety isn't more important than someone elses freedom.
 
Fearless said:
How about 'Nothing to do with Islam Islamic State'.

That should please you.
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Nothing about this pleases me. And your post indicates you dont understand my point. Possibly I didn't explain it right, which would make sense.

Anyway, I'm not in the mood for the usual redcafe CE level of adversarial chit chat.
 
Kentonio said:
There is absolutely no grounds for imprisoning people who haven't commited a crime, absolutely none. If that day ever comes again, then we're not a democracy we're a repressive regime. Your safety isn't more important than someone elses freedom.
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Any other day this would rightfully, be almost unchallenged. But after events like this it's amazing how many fundamentals get skewed.
 
RedMist99 said:
BBC has just confirmed the worst of what we feared.

A friend's brother is among those who lost their life.

Someone here reposted a Tweet yesterday made by Dan Hett about the Telegraph posting through his door. Can't imagine what he's going through now.

RIP Martyn
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Sorry to hear this.

It's heartbreaking listening to the confirmations on the radio.
 
Its pretty clear that the intelligence services and anti-terrorism units need more resource. Its a common thread amongst lots of these types of tragedies, "He was on our radar but not considered a large threat" type of statements from the police.
Obviously it couldn't be introduced right now and the party that did it would be vilified for using this tragedy for political gain, but any party that said we'd raise income tax by a percentage point across the board (or something similar) and promised* to use those funds to increase security would get my vote.

Not a "£350m per week for the NHS" kind of promise
 
Freedom Aluteni said:
I'm a fan of David Squires's work and he's written an appropriate cartoon on this week's events.

https://www.theguardian.com/footbal.../24/david-squires-on-manchester-a-city-united
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That's outstanding. Posting it here directly.

1203.jpg
 
Fergies Gum said:
Thousands of these kind of guys are "known" to the security services and its just not feasible for there to be round the clock monitoring for all these guys.

Worth remembering that to monitor one person, it takes around 20 people during a 24 hour period, so the agencies have to pool their resources to target those they believe are the highest risk.

Sadly sometimes, some suspects will fall through the net and launch attacks undetected as they were deemed to be low risk.
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They've been warning "when not if" as well.
The Purley King said:
Its pretty clear that the intelligence services and anti-terrorism units need more resource. Its a common thread amongst lots of these types of tragedies, "He was on our radar but not considered a large threat" type of statements from the police.
Obviously it couldn't be introduced right now and the party that did it would be vilified for using this tragedy for political gain, but any party that said we'd raise income tax by a percentage point across the board (or something similar) and promised* to use those funds to increase security would get my vote.

Not a "£350m per week for the NHS" kind of promise
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We're just really struggling at the moment.

NHS is underfunded, Police are underfunded, teachers are underfunded, security services are underfunded.
 
RedMist99 said:
BBC has just confirmed the worst of what we feared.

A friend's brother is among those who lost their life.

Someone here reposted a Tweet yesterday made by Dan Hett about the Telegraph posting through his door. Can't imagine what he's going through now.

RIP Martyn
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One of my friends is friends with Dan and I saw the updates she had shared when I woke up this morning, it's just awful stuff. To think this is just one of so many too, it's just bollocks. Such a waste.
 
rcoobc said:
They've been warning "when not if" as well.

We're just really struggling at the moment.

NHS is underfunded, Police are underfunded, teachers are underfunded, security services are underfunded.
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Income has doubled for top executives though, so it's not all bad.

 
Ban said:
I know people should go on with their lives and all and I don't expect them to talk about this the whole time. But I can't feel anything but despise for a colleague who has happily put a profile pic of her in Barcelona with a Desigual bag walking around. Of course 2 other colleagues have commented something like Desigual rules or whatever. Not a worry in their lives or her life.
Tomorrow morning I'll need to hear about it, they'll all happily listen to her beautiful stories. At most she'll say it's terrible what happened in Manchester but in 2nd sentence she'll comment on the big themes, like which chocolate does she like best or which new ice cream is out.

Maybe it's just me but people are so stupid. So so stupid.
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The only one coming across as a bit stupid is you I'm afraid.
 
JustAFan said:
So the police can just lock up anyone they want to claim is a danger without that person even being able to present a defense or answer the charges in anyway. Sounds a bit familiar.
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Kentonio said:
There is absolutely no grounds for imprisoning people who haven't commited a crime, absolutely none. If that day ever comes again, then we're not a democracy we're a repressive regime. Your safety isn't more important than someone elses freedom.
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moses said:
Any other day this would rightfully, be almost unchallenged. But after events like this it's amazing how many fundamentals get skewed.
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I should have been clearer.

1. I assume being a member of a terrorist organisation is a crime.
2. The intelligence services have evidence that these people are commiting a crime (ie supporting or being members of a terrorist organisation)

If the above is true then they should be taken to court and then locked up.

In most of the attacks in recent years you hear the attackers "were known to security services" and you read in the papers how security services knew they'd done this and that and had training here and there. If they know this stuff, if they can prove this stuff, then they should and in doing so they should lock these people up.
 
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