They toppled Gaddafi and left it as it is...
Manchester Arena Bombing 22.05.17
- Thread starter VeevaVee
- Start date
Literal interpretation of pre medieval texts is an absurd argument. The all contain utterly ridiculous passages that most followed admit are absurd by ignoring them.
The point I was making is that most religions are divisive and at times aggressive in the name of their god.
No, and these feckwits are not either in my opinion. They are no different to fat milk fed white Americans taking their father's gun and going mental in the mall or school. Socially disenfranchised males.
I actually can't believe the news gives oxygen to IS claims of responsibility.
In a way Trump might be right with his moronic 'losers' tag. It's a lot less appealing than Soldiers of the Caliphate.
Yes these guys are muslims but really I don't think if they were happy in themselves they could be convinced to blow themselves and 22 people up, regardless of theology.
Religion's biggest flaw is how it can be railroaded to mobilse people. Back to the north if Ireland, fought along religious lines but nothing whatsoever to do with religion.
Is that true, though? I'm no theologian but I'm familiar enough with the christian faith to know that the texts on which it is based doesn't seem to take aim at other religions. Obviously, the bible can be used as a reason to do terrible things (crusades, inquisition etc.) but the scriptures themselves don't encourage anyone to take up arms against non-believers. I've always assumed Buddhism and Hinduism are similar in this regard but willing to stand corrected.
I've only heard from others that the earlier revisions of the Bible were supposedly a bit crazy as well. Eastern religions in general are more inclined towards peace and some like Hinduism also preach vegetarianism as a way to not hurt animals so they'd be completely different from islam, Christianity and Judaism.
No it doesn't take aim directly. They all have tracts about chosen people though and that's all it takes.
I'm not familiar with Muslim theology but the idea that a 1000 year old text should be used literally is silly. My point about Christian theology is that the bible contains so many absurd passages that we just never take literally.
Maybe if the Christian texts were written at the same time they might have been more aggressive. Most tomes from history were political documents as much as anything.
My main point is that anybody on either side who thinks theology is to blame is just wrong. Religion is just use to mobilise.
"Proven links" to ISIS, just back from Libya where he's said to have family connections to an al Qaeda-linked group; French say he likely travelled to Syria.
Reading a post like this I wonder just what ISIS and the other jihadi groups have to do for some folk to take them and their vision for the world seriously.
At what point do 'enough' socially disenfranchised individuals become a cohesive political / military movement? Labelling them as 'losers' is a bit of an easy way out. It's almost as lazy & daft as saying that ALL Muslim people are a threat to our safety & wellbeing.
The individual becomes part of the Group at some stage, is it done by how they meet & talk & start discussing common goals & values, construct an organisational framework. I'm not arguing, I was mainly posting about the social disenfranchisement 'angle' myself earlier. But at some stage it goes beyond that, ISIS even much more so than the IRA (probably not even close) are driven by meting out violence towards their opponents. I might say that religion is the horse that carries on these loons on their journey - you get the loons in all of the religions & outside of the religions, they don't all form cohesive groups dedicated to terrorist activities.
(clumsy post - I know what I want to say, but might not have done it very well)
They should get their branding right, too many name changes doesn't work.
So you'd be in the Olivier Roy camp?
I can understand that point of view but it's hard to ignore that there's only one religion that currently provides such an effective outlet for these destructive tendencies. As a society we should do our best to improve the lives of disenfranchised youths as much as possible - so they feel less hopeless - but that's going to be an ongoing challenge for generations.
Meanwhile, do we ignore the way these destructive tendencies are being channelled? Or should we also try to address that issue in parallel? Seems like common sense to me, although I don't know the best way to address it. Reformation from within seems the most obvious but, again, I'm not enough of a thelogian to know how this should be done or if it's even possible.
The IRA were the complete opposite in terms of organisation and chain of command. And also in how responsibility was claimed.
I do agree with you to a point but the whole thing is so entangled in other geopolitics that a straight answer is hard to find anywhere.
If you read into the topic a lot of lines of discussion lead back to Saudi Arabia. It's never mentioned but we see endless discussion of refugees and immigration policy after an attack like this.
The short answer is yes.
It depends on what section of the Bible you consider most important.
The nature of writing of the old testament is very different from the new testament. If one looks at the old testament, there's are a lot of things that defend using violence against ones enemies with the promise that those acts are acceptable by God. The thing is that most Christians believe the new testament is far more important and far representative of how Christians should live their lives.
Because Christians don't think the bible is literally the word of God. Which allows them to be a bit more rational in their interpretation of the dodgy bits.
I dunno. Like I keep saying, I'm no theologian. But IMHO we're long past the point at which we can say that the islamic faith plays no part in these atrocities.
Yes. Haven't read it in ages but I think one of the scriptures acknowledges that the verses are writing by inspiration or something like that.
After doing 15 hours yesterday back for another 12-14 today. Days off cancelled so will miss the final but it's not really on my mind at the moment.
Hope the lads bring a smile back to the city and leave it all in Stockholm.
Hope the lads bring a smile back to the city and leave it all in Stockholm.
Pretty much yeah.
In the 70's and 80's there were many groups that chose Marxism as a banner by which they committed acts of terror now it's Islam.
Why are people making a thing, or even commenting that the guy happened to be United fan? It has zero bearing on him, the club or us as fellow fans. I see no merit to the press or others throwing the clubs name into the mix.
Simply saying thank you for all you are doing seems worthless in the context of what you and your colleagues are doing right now.
Unfortunately, I do not get up to Old Trafford as often as I would like, but I am there for Carrick's testimonial - if you are going, I would happily buy you a pint pre-match if you are about.
Thanks for your work mate, and all your colleagues
A couple of articles on the Kepel/Roy debate for anyone interested:
‘That Ignoramus’: 2 French Scholars of Radical Islam Turn Bitter Rivals
The Professor and the Jihadi
‘That Ignoramus’: 2 French Scholars of Radical Islam Turn Bitter Rivals
The Professor and the Jihadi
The problem with this "Islamic terrorists are evil because of Islam" idea is that, it completely negates any responsibility from the West
In the past 40 years, the West (including Russia) have had wars with Libya (1986, 2011, 2014+), Syria (1976-1990, 2011+), Iraq (1990-1991, 1995-96, 2003-2011, 2014+) and Afghanistan (2001+). Each time the country or group in question is fighting a global army, 10,000 times in strength.
Why does this matter? Think about how we feel during the Paris, Brussels, or Nice attacks? Heartbroken, hurt, angry, sad. We all feel a strong affinity towards our French, Belgium, German, and American friends. And for good reason, we are now very similar, and they are our allies, brothers and sisters.
But maybe during the Turkish bombings, perhaps we didn't feel quite the same? We don't have the same strong feeling of affinity towards the Turkish people?
But for Muslims, it may be quite the opposite. The people of Iraq, Syria, Libya, they are their brothers and sisters. They feel a strong affinity towards them. I could be a real hurt that their friends are being killed and no one in the west cares.
So what, this is all our fault?
Well no. Terrorists shouldn't get to have opinions. Trump is right to call them losers. But if we want to look at the justification for terrorist actions, it's going to get complicated.
It's a crutch to say that the terrorists simply hate our freedom, but a useful one.
Very well put and hard to disagree with. I do find it hard to accept just socially disenfranchised without having and/or mental illness on the end though. Blowing up kids, there must be something more to it.
Respect.
As sick as this sounds I'd sit down and chat with a Islamic terrorist who would willingly blow himself up for a cause.
I'd want to know what drives them to it and I know I'd probably get two answers
- retaliation against western intervention in Muslim countries.
- western values contradict Quranic teachings (their interpretation) hence all infidels deserve die.
I want to know what answer I'd get most. I believe the former.
I'd want to know what drives them to it and I know I'd probably get two answers
- retaliation against western intervention in Muslim countries.
- western values contradict Quranic teachings (their interpretation) hence all infidels deserve die.
I want to know what answer I'd get most. I believe the former.
Well, yeah! He's probably representing police officers.
Who has Theresa May been representing?
I know where you're coming from with this. I know someone, nice person but empathy is not really something she ever feels. She readily admits that the only thing that ever upsets her is trouble to her immediate family or any issue (and there are many) with herself.
After she's made the standard response to this attack it will completely leave her head and she will give it no further thought. Her concern will be superficial and incredibly brief.
There are more people like this than we realise...by that I mean people who just find empathy quite confusing.
Terrorists don't get to have an opinion.
Oh yes it does. If they're not on the terror list it means people from EU/US can fund / go join them.
I know we (rightly) don't like them but the Mail seem to have one hell of a source available to them for this story, (they were in very early with the suicide bomber speculation & some other not normally reported stuff)
Now saying Abedi was on a train from London to Manchester during Monday daytime & speculating as to the purpose of this.
Now saying Abedi was on a train from London to Manchester during Monday daytime & speculating as to the purpose of this.
Some of the harassment with family members of missing victims has been sickening.
2 journalists got hold of the guys mobile number and someone from the Telegraph located his address and posted a letter.
2 journalists got hold of the guys mobile number and someone from the Telegraph located his address and posted a letter.
Wasn't there a report that the US Media were getting the sources from US Intelligence agencies?
Three men arrested in south Manchester.
think there was, they seem to be getting it very quickly too.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/fo.../Game-won-t-heal-remind-humanity-endures.html
Brilliant article here by Martin Samuel, who is one of the best journalists in the country.
They got a lot of this info from the NBC who were getting leaked info.
Just saw the killer's face for the first time.
Such a young kid. What a waste of an existence.
Such a young kid. What a waste of an existence.