Manchester Arena Bombing 22.05.17

RIP

Condolences to all affected, credit to all those, from the emergency services to individuals, who have helped or offered help . Thoughts also for those who still do not know the whereabouts of the people they are searching for.They must be overwhelmed by anxiety
 
Mciahel Goodman said:
A lot of those people will have been indoctrinated through deaths and events in the Middle East. It's complex, but the religion is secondary in my opinion. Sociopolitical concerns drive this, not religion.
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The obvious argument against a derivation like this is that many millions of people in similar or worse social/political/economic situations would not commit such acts. Which is also true for the majority of Muslims and Middle Easterners, by the way - I'm not sure if anti-Imperialists realize how much their typical argument of terrorism-as-natural-reaction-against-injustice pigeonholes Muslims as quasi-Pavlovian killers in a way quite similar to Muslim-haters.

I also think there's a too idealized view of what religion is in what you say. I'm convinced it has to be regarded as an (incoherent, flexible) ideology rather than a (coherent) theology. It is very much part of politics and the wider socio-political order and has always been. So it doesn't make sense to me to seperate religion from sociopolitical issues the way you try to, it's necessary to discuss their intertwining.
 
Zarlak said:
Your post only makes sense if there is somewhat of an equal split on this subject. If 1.79 billion Muslims interpret it one way and a 0.01 billion interpret it a different way, then it indicates precisely where the problem lies. It's not like you've got a 50/50 split out there of how it's interpreted.
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It makes sense regardless. I can tell you most Christians didn't think Jim Jones was Jesus, but it would be silly to think the ones who went out in the jungle with him didn't do it because they thought he was Jesus. If you take the Jesus bit out there would've been no cult.

Anyway I'm not going to continue this because I don't see the point. In many ways I think it underscores my point. To extremists its the great number of people who have fallen away, and their bizarre marginal view is proven by the fact everyone else disagrees with them. As long as humans exist people will disagree about the right way. Religion is just one example of where this happens. Trotsky's idea of global proletariat clashed with Stalin's socialism in one country. Ideas and beliefs open themselves up to interpretation. Yes, somewhere out there is the truth. That is a little incidental though, because all that matters is that people believe they have the truth and how it motivates them.
 
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Sparky Rhiwabon said:
Looks like that tw*t was right, surprise surprise.
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How was he right? Did Islam collectively attack Manchester last night? If so how come I wasn't there nor got the memo? How come I feel as sick and appalled as much as you do?

A well reasoned answer would be preferred. Else stop being a tw*t yourself
 
Randall Flagg said:
Think it was more the point of assuming things before any facts come out

I'm sure most of us might have thought it was a possibility but best to wait for real news
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Ah right, you could be right, I am only reading this now so thought it seemed a bit harsh.
 
#07 said:
It makes sense regardless. I can tell you most Christians didn't think Jim Jones was Jesus, but it would be silly to think the ones who went out in the jungle with him didn't do it because they thought he was Jesus. If you take the Jesus bit out there would've been no cult.

Anyway I'm not going to continue this because I don't see the point. In many ways I think it underscores my point. To extremists its the great number of people who have fallen away, and their bizarre marginal view is proven by the fact everyone else disagrees with them. As long as humans exist people will disagree about the right way. Religion is just one example of where this happens. Trotsky's idea of global proletariat clashed with Stalin's socialism in one country. Ideas and beliefs open themselves up to interpretation. Yes, somewhere out there is the truth. That is a little incidental though, because all that matters is that people believe they have the truth and how it motivates them.
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Nobody is going to argue that with you, the difference is nobody says that because those particular people did it thinking that he was Jesus that this therefore means there's an inherent problem with Christianity that needs to be dealt with. Because most people are rational and realise that 1% of something doesn't indicate a widespread massive problem. That's the point of these discussions.
 
sammsky1 said:
How was he right? Did Islam collectively attack Manchester last night? If so how come I wasn't there nor got the memo? How come I feel as sick and appalled as much as you do?

A well reasoned answer would be preferred. Else stop being a tw*t yourself
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I don't think anyone's saying it was a collective attack, I'm certainly not saying that, just that it was an attack by a Muslim, in the name of Islam - that can't be denied. I'm not suggesting that you or anyone else is involved.
 
Sparky Rhiwabon said:
I don't think anyone's saying it was a collective attack, I'm certainly not saying that, just that it was an attack by a Muslim, in the name of Islam - that can't be denied. I'm not suggesting that you or anyone else is involved.
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Sorry and apologies. Misunderstood your post
 
Zarlak said:
Nobody is going to argue that with you, the difference is nobody says that because those particular people did it because they thought he was Jesus that there's an inherent problem with Christianity that needs to be dealt with. Because most people are rational and realise that 1% of something doesn't indicate a widespread massive problem. That's the point of these discussions.
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Again there are lots of people in Western society who do think there is an inherent problem with Christianity. Its part of the reason why Christianity has mostly been relegated to a private belief system, and secularism is the dominant force in Western society. A lot of people actually think Jesus himself was made up, despite some historical references to him. That's how little credibility Christianity has in a lot of places.
 
Honestly think Mosques in Manchester(and around the UK) should be under constant investigation.

I'm a Muslim so definitely not discriminating, but I obviously acknowledge that there is a problem.
 
Isn't an overly simplistic but maybe effective way of explaining this whole fear of Muslim thing to football fans to compare it to hooliganism?

Say ten united fans went on a rampage attacking opposition fans abroad, would you want to be blamed for that as a peaceful united fan? Then maybe some people say football is the problem, are you going to give up watching football? Dicks are the problem. Stop being a dick.
 
#07 said:
Again there are lots of people in Western society who do think there is an inherent problem with Christianity. Its part of the reason why Christianity has mostly been relegated to a private belief system, and secularism is the dominant force in Western society. A lot of people actually think Jesus himself was made up, despite some historical references to him. That's how little credibility Christianity has in a lot of places.
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I agree with you, but none of what you said relates to what I said, everything you just said is a completely separate issue that has nothing to do with this example. The point is, after that happened and the guy was thought of as Jesus, nobody came out and said that because of that act there is an inherent problem with Christianity because it can be interpreted in different ways. Yet when it comes to Islam it's spouted every single time. The principle is the same, but people act differently.
 
Just watching 5 o'clock news now. It's fecking devastating. Genuinely about to burst into tears.
 
Zarlak said:
I agree with you, but none of what you said relates to what I said, everything you just said is a completely separate issue that has nothing to do with this example. The point is, after that happened and the guy was thought of as Jesus, nobody came out and said that because of that act there is an inherent problem with Christianity because it can be interpreted in different ways. Yet when it comes to Islam it's spouted every single time. The principle is the same, but people act differently.
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Mate that's because we're living at least 100 years too late.

Voltaire and all the enlightenment philosophers already slagged off Christianity for being open to interpretation in the 18th century. Marx etc. went even further.
 
Pogue Mahone said:
It's repetitive as hell. Still think these are discussions worth having. If we don't try to understand what the underlying issues are then nothing will ever change.
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Terrorism has been around essentially as long as human beings have been around, depressingly. Do you ever think things will 'change' Pogue?
 
Rado_N said:
It was about half an hour after it happened, nobody knew anything.
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Ah, OK, just reading it now in the cold light of day. Terrible news either way, disgusting that it was basically targeting young girls given the demographic of Grande's fanbase :(
 
maba723 said:
Honestly think Mosques in Manchester(and around the UK) should be under constant investigation.

I'm a Muslim so definitely not discriminating, but I obviously acknowledge that there is a problem.
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Its tricky. 99.99% of people who visit mosques have nothing to hide with regards to terrorism and you are replying on the authorities having sufficient cultural insight nor to make mistakes of false allegations and arrests.

On one level I think it's a good idea but then again it's discriminatory and a implies that the British practice of Islam is at fault, which it is not. The crimes of a handful of people should not be borne by 99.99% of people who disagree with those actions.
 
#07 said:
Mate that's because we're living at least 100 years too late.

Voltaire and all the enlightenment philosophers already slagged off Christianity for being open to interpretation in the 18th century. Marx etc. went even further.
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I think this serves my point. Would you contend then that if Voltaire and all the enlightened also slagged off Islam in the 18th century then the debate about Islam today wouldn't be happening as it isn't happening with Christianity? Therefore those who are arguing today that Islam shouldn't be criticised any differently than Christianity et al are actually right to do so? Either they were wrong to do so with Christianity in the 18th century and thus wrong to do so about Islam in the 21st, or they were right to do so with Christianity in the 18th and so if they're going to do it with Islam in the 21st then they should do it for all still.
 
Why don't you both take Voltaires "a witty saying proves nothing" quote and apply it. It's like people are trying to one up on their intelligence/understanding in this thread.

This-irrespective of beliefs or religion- is a deplorable act and this thread should be used for information pertaining to it, not anything beyond that. The authorities will decide the motivation for this but in the meantime let's just cut the nonsense. There could very well be people we haven't heard from on this forum who have been directly affected by this.
 
jungledrums said:
Terrorism has been around essentially as long as human beings have been around, depressingly. Do you ever think things will 'change' Pogue?
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Well terrorism has usually had some sort of defined goal with a possibility of a reasonable compromise to achieve peace (e.g. what happened in Northern Ireland). This threat seems different in a number of important ways.
 
Pogue Mahone said:
It's repetitive as hell. Still think these are discussions worth having. If we don't try to understand what the underlying issues are then nothing will ever change.
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True, but I'm sure there is already a thread for that. These threads always start well with people posting info from different sources that you might not have seen, but then go down this route.
I was in Antigua when the Westminster attack happened and followed it on here.
 
What is the difference between Islam and Muslim? Are they the same thing in a way? My understanding was Islam is the term used to describe acts done by the religion or to refer to the religion as a whole whereas a Muslim is a singular member of that religion.

Either way I work with a couple of Muslim guys and they are absolutely brilliant guys so I think this painting the whole religion thing as quite insulting as the terrorists are quite clearly a minority of cnuts.
 
Scary event. Just found out my sister and niece were there last night, and they were close to what happened.
 
Marcelinho87 said:
What is the difference between Islam and Muslim? Are they the same thing in a way? My understanding was Islam is the term used to describe acts done by the religion or to refer to the religion as a whole whereas a Muslim is a singular member of that religion.

Either way I work with a couple of Muslim guys and they are absolutely brilliant guys so I think this painting the whole religion thing as quite insulting as the terrorists are quite clearly a minority of cnuts.
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Islam is a religion. A Muslim is a person who follows Islam.
 
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