Correlation doesn't imply causation. A pretty well known saying, for a reason.
Manchester Arena Bombing 22.05.17
- Thread starter VeevaVee
- Start date
Correlation doesn't imply causation. A pretty well known saying, for a reason.
No it hasn't, it's just two different opinions.
You can't. No bomb can destroy an idea.
And no amount of monitoring of communications would stop this stuff. They can send letters as easily as emails. No one is asking for all letters to be opened. There is ALWAYS a way two people can communicate if they want to.
The world is not completely safe, and your government cannot make it so. People need to deal with that. Then remember, if you live in the US, you are more likely to die by lawnmower accident than terrorism, and in the UK, you are more likely to die falling off a ladder.
That does not mean ignoring the threat, nor does it mean pretending things are fine and ignoring the horror of what is going on, but the government cannot wave a magic wand here no matter what they claim.
anyone nearby who can help?
Not to mention that technology and communication evolves at a faster rate than lawmakers and politicians write new laws and reduce our rights. It'd be pointless and easily circumvented, nevermind the loss of liberty aspect. Personally, I also have nothing to hide, but that's not the issue. People who do will continue to find ways to keep things secret.
Thank the Lord that we have such insight. Pat yourself on the back and buy yourself a packet of crisps.
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"Hey bro, we on for Pub near Old Trafford tonight?"
"Yeah mate, hoping to hit double figures tonight, worth the banging headache tommorow."
Now to anyone that focused on that conversation, it would look COMPLETELY normal.
What if that conversation was of two bombers actually about to hit Old Trafford during a match.
There would be no way of catching these guys, they'd buy the stuff required from half a dozen stores, they'd never mention anything at all indicting an attack. They would most likely get the info needed to construct said bomb from the darkweb.
While I have nothing to hide, bar being a sportsnation member & a Kodi user. I'd rather not have someone trawl through my history.
"Yeah mate, hoping to hit double figures tonight, worth the banging headache tommorow."
Now to anyone that focused on that conversation, it would look COMPLETELY normal.
What if that conversation was of two bombers actually about to hit Old Trafford during a match.
There would be no way of catching these guys, they'd buy the stuff required from half a dozen stores, they'd never mention anything at all indicting an attack. They would most likely get the info needed to construct said bomb from the darkweb.
While I have nothing to hide, bar being a sportsnation member & a Kodi user. I'd rather not have someone trawl through my history.
It was 6 years ago to be exact. That is more than half of a decade. Not so recent to be honest...
I am actually very poorly informed on planned parenthood bombings
Joe Cox was murdered by a far right terrorist too, a year ago.
It is hate fueled extremism that is the cause, regardless of the people involved.
If you're willing to open up a seperate topic, i'm happy to tell you why you're wrong.
It's disrespectful to be having this racist arguement on this topic when people's children were murdered just last night.
+ when they keep edging it further as time goes on. Give them an inch now, they'll take another in 5 or 10 years, and another, another.
Islam doesn't kill people. Radical extremists who push their own agendas on vulnerable subjects kill people. Just so happens that the biggest platform for nutters right now is Islam-related. It's been for other causes in the past, and it will be for other causes in the future.
The problem is that temporary powers are also never temporary. One poster says what's a civil liberty when radical Islam has to be defeated, ignoring the fact that radical Islam is likely to be around in some shape or form for decades.
I'd rather take my chances, as everyone currently does, with the way things are now than suspend freedoms indefinitely.
Fair enough. I agree with your notion on the whole. Just found the argument you put somewhat lazy.
This is pretty much what I think as well but it does need to be weighed up against the sort of times and the society we live in.
This is one of the most shocking things that's happened near enough on all our doorsteps.
Someone at work had a grandchild there last night, and that alone put a lump in my throat.
Now is not the time to talk religion, and At a time like this I'm not going to play a victim card, but it does hurt to get tarred with the same brush every time.
Thoughts lie firmly with those missing, the families and the deceased. 8 year old girl...unbelievable.
Someone at work had a grandchild there last night, and that alone put a lump in my throat.
Now is not the time to talk religion, and At a time like this I'm not going to play a victim card, but it does hurt to get tarred with the same brush every time.
Thoughts lie firmly with those missing, the families and the deceased. 8 year old girl...unbelievable.
Well, now you are just splitting hairs - I originally wrote 'couple of years ago', which is not necessarily interpreted as more than 6 years (!?).
That is true though, the white supremacy, and the bombings of hospitals in foreign lands (etc.) - I did not think that further, or expand my view on it. Thank you. That is true, terrorism is not exclusive for a specific group - Breivik's act was of terrorism, no doubt about it. I just can't recall a christian group taking the credit for that, although - as you mentioned - the church shooting in Charleston (and among other crimes) are in the name of christianity (for instance).
The reaction from the city of Manchester and it's people is exactly why terrorism cannot win. The ultimate purpose of this style of attack is to create fear and to disrupt lives. Instead it has united communities. People came out and let strangers into their homes, others drove people home for no charge, some places of worship offered food and shelter. When the enemy try to spark hatred, acts of kindness put out those fires.
There will always be trolls, racists, extremists - people with agendas who will peddle hate to the different levels they can. For the vast majority of human history these people have been a fringe, they will remain that way because decency will overcome hate.
There will always be trolls, racists, extremists - people with agendas who will peddle hate to the different levels they can. For the vast majority of human history these people have been a fringe, they will remain that way because decency will overcome hate.
Agreed.
But, as I said, I do wonder at what point Governments will start to fight back? To better protect it's citizens? Not that I wish for violence, and when animals keep being pushed, it's a matter of time to push back stronger.
I guess, my point is that when you are seeing a great number of attacks, and one more sickening that the other committed by terrorist in the name of Islam, at what time does the muslim community start to publicly distance it self and condemning it? Or is it not reported by the media?
The argument that it's just a radical minority, is fair but unsustainable. Even a minority is a large number, and a very dangerous one.
Because fear may cloud judgment and cause harm to more innocent people for the wrong reasons.
And not only that, but the UK and other Western countries have faced a variety of threats as well; the IRA was a significant one here. Even if we do manage to completely eradicate Islamic terrorism, which I'd say is impossible in the near future, the threat will likely evolve as the world changes and we may one day face a new threat. Which is incredibly depressing, but likely reality. Living in a state of fear doesn't help, even if it's an admittedly understandable stance.
It was admittedly probably phrased quite poorly and arguably isn't a great analogy - my general point though was that people needlessly die and get killed in a number of different ways, many of which are no fault of their own; car accidents are a major one, and yet we'd never think of banning vehicles from the road, irrespective of how many lives we save. Again, not a perfect analogy, but one I think is still relevant to the idea of not living in fear to tragic incidents such as this.
Absolutely, I agree fully on that.
The idea needs be destroyed though. And that will involve more than just the will of Western governments.
That's fundamentally impossible, though. We can do all we can to tackle it, and we may cut down the threat of radical terrorism, but it's quite genuinely impossible to stop an ideology. Whether that poisonous ideology involves radical Islam or another form of terrorism.
how do you do that?
All religion then? All ideas that suggest there's more beyond death?
I'm not sure I'm up for that kind of society, even as an atheist.
So sad. This time yesterday they were alive and young. Now they are dead.
There are 1.8 billion Muslims in the world. A very small percentage of these are terrorists. 1.79+ billion get on with their lives peacefully. Taking a sample of less than 1% of a group's population and blaming their actions on the group as a whole is wrong. You can't judge the actions of a community by the deeds of a minuscule minority of it's population.
I am not really sure if this will continue though, this was a brutal attack and I think it will definitely affect a lot of people and while people may react well after this I think that a few more such attacks can completely destroy communities. I am in Manchester right now as an outsider and I can't even blame anyone who wants to blame me or other outsiders for something like this.
Just read about this now. Shocking.
I was right near there too
That's what everyone in every time thinks though, that their time is somehow different. It's just a natural reaction to being confronted by something that seems so inexplicable and inhuman. The desire to just be able to do 'something' to stop it.
Not the right thread to start debating this lads and emotions are too raw. But surely you'd all agree its time to start re-thinking this so-called ideology on all sides.
Think about this a little.
What are we all (rightly) praising about the city right now? How a bomb brought everyone together, the taxi drivers, both football clubs, blood donors, bars, shops, hotels, all coming together.
Why does anyone think bombing the middle east will have a different effect? It doesn't matter that we think they are insane and their ideology is warped into madness, they react the same way. They come together, they say they will be stronger together. Just like we do.
You cannot 'destroy an idea' with force, cutting off the funding (Wahhabism is funded directly by saudi arabia and ALL of these terror groups proclaim themselves wahhabists) and isolating the true powers behind all this.
Until we are prepared to take on the source by isolating them from the world and stopping them exporting hatred, then this will never end. Cutting off the saudis is far more useful than seeing what you posted on facebook.
What years? Where did you live?
I remember a bar called Route 236 which had a great pool table, the cheap pizza takeaway, a massive chemist, a busy newsagent and of course the Queen of Hearts! All within 3 mins walk of my front door at 51 Cawdor Road. That was one of the happiest years of my life!
I don't disagree with you. And moreover i never said this 'idea' should be destroyed with force. All I'm getting is the world needs a 'paradigm shift'. And again, its far too complex a topic to get into on this or any forum for that matter.
You mean the queen of tarts! I was 3 minutes from there and hajis. Late 90s
Yes we should not talk about it now.
But any solution needs to account for Western foreign policy in the middle east, better ability to track people with mental illnesses who fall prey to extremist agenda's and accessing more intelligence without offending civil liberties.
It's a very complex algorithm and I'm not sure it can be solved.
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