Manager draft

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crappycraperson said:
I am fine with him playing as RB. But it's clear that his best performances at RB came before Pep took over.
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He had a couple of great performances as RB. His level of performance didnt drop; he just didnt play week-in-week-out on this position. Its up to you how you rate things, but if thats really one of your concerns, things become incredible complicated. No way that you are able to make a similar detailed assessment for the majority of players.
 
crappycraperson said:
I am fine with him playing as RB. But it's clear that his best performances at RB came before Pep took over.
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I thought he was his usual brilliant self whenever he played rightback last season, just like it was at the World Cup, when he finally played right back again. Overall the treble winning season was his standout year, but if we start discussing if Lahm was a better rightback under van Gaal or Heynckes, then it gets silly in my opinion. Fine margins and often not influenced by his individual ability but the team around him, the tactics and whatever.

It's like arguing that Neeskens never hit his peak form in midfield under Michels, because he was at his best after Michels left Ajax and never recaptured his best form at Barca. But again, fine margins and I would never start such a discussion in a game against you, because it's silly and doesn't do the player justice.

If there's a clear cut in the performance level, then fair enough to bring it up. But that's clearly not the case with Lahm, not at all.
 
PedroMendez said:
He had a couple of great performances as RB. His level of performance didnt drop; he just didnt play week-in-week-out on this position. Its up to you how you rate things, but if thats really one of your concerns, things become incredible complicated. No way that you are able to make a similar detailed assessment for the majority of players.
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The bold part should be key, I reckon. There is no reason to suspect Lahm wouldn't have been brilliant IF he had been played exclusively as a RB - and there you pretty much have it.

The peak/best position/whatever part is only relevant for some players who clearly featured in certain teams/under certain managers in a) markedly poor spells or b) clearly before or after their prime.

Like Balu's VDS example above - or, say, Larry White for Fergie.
 
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Edgar Allan Pillow said:
Again a dicey pick by Gio. Definitely not in the peak under Trap.
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Not sure if serious? Trap is clearly the most influential manager in his career and turned him into a Ballon d'Or winner, gave him that attacking box to box role, which clearly was his peak form, the role in which he drove Germany to a World Cup win.
 
01. Harms:-Giovanni Trapattoni - 1.
02. AngeloHenriquez:-Fabio Cappello - 1.
03. Jayvin:- Carlo Ancelotti - 1.
04. Paolo Di Canio:-Louis Van Gaal - 1.
05. Skizzo:-Udo Lattek - 1.
06. MJJ:-Marcello Lippi - 1.
07. Joga Bonito:-Udo Lattek - 1.
08. Balu:-Béla Guttmann - 1.
09. Raees:-Vicente Del Bosque - 1.
10. Cutch:-Alex Ferguson - 1.
11. Gio:-Giovanni Trapattoni - 1. Matthäus
12. Edgar Allan Pillow:-Fabio Capello - 1. Maldini
13. The Red Viper:-Pep Guardiola - 1. Philipp Lahm
14. DanNistelrooy:-Carlo Ancelotti - 1. Cristiano Ronaldo
15. Annahnomoss:-Vanderlei Luxemburgo - 1. Zinedine Zidane
16. Crappycraperson:-Rinus Michels - 1. Migueli

@Cutch
 
Edgar has his Traps mixed up I reckon. Inter Trap would be the relevant one for Lothar, obviously.
 
Yeah, that makes sense. Too many Traps around. But it has to be said, there wouldn't have been a Bayern Trap, if there wasn't an Inter Trap in Matthäus' career. Pretty sure that their great relationship was highly influential in bringing Trap to Munich.
 
Joga Bonito said:
I'm just absolutely torn between two choices here. :mad:
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Given that you've got Skizzo breathing down yer neck, I would've thought your first pick was pretty much set in stone. Looking forward to seeing who you land on - and then who Skizzo goes for. Fun duel shaping up right there - straight into the fray for both of you.
 
Chesterlestreet said:
Given that you've got Skizzo breathing down yer neck, I would've thought your first pick was pretty much set in stone.
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There's two clear GOAT's there though isn't there? I've not checked the dates, but I think there is.

I know who I'd go for but I'm not too surprised he's tossing it around. Assuming I've got the dates right.
 
Theon said:
There's two clear GOAT's there though isn't there? I've not checked the dates, but I think there is.

I know who I'd go for but I'm not too surprised he's tossing it around. Assuming I've got the dates right.
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Yep. Insane choice, really. But passing up on...yeah. I wouldn't have had the balls to do that myself.

Having said that, though - there could be, possibly, maybe, perhaps...some sort of "peak" argument to be made here. Which would complicate matters further and make the call even harder to make.

Glad I don't have to make it!
 
Chesterlestreet said:
Yep. Insane choice, really. But passing up on...yeah. I wouldn't have had the balls to do that myself.

Having said that, though - there could be, possibly, maybe, perhaps...some sort of "peak" argument to be made here. Which would complicate matters further and make the call even harder to make.

Glad I don't have to make it!
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If im thinking what youre thinking...then yeah, I have it a bit easier since I can wait and see which way this plays out. Although I dont like the idea of waiting and seeing :lol:
 
I'm so glad that I'm not in that position. Impossible decision, I'd probably flip a coin or go with my heart. It all sucks, because a certain player isn't available to them, one that would at least for me make it an easy decision.
 
Chesterlestreet said:
The bold part should be key, I reckon. There is no reason to suspect Lahm wouldn't have been brilliant IF he had been played exclusively as a RB - and there you pretty much have it.

The peak/best position/whatever part is only relevant for some players who clearly featured in certain teams/under certain managers in a) markedly poor spells or b) clearly after their prime.

Like Balu's VDS example above - or, say, Larry White for Fergie.
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Yeah. We can't assume they can only play one role, in one tactic - because that was what they played during "our manager". We're going by abilities and Lahm's ability to play RB wasn't any different under Guardiola. Whether he played there or not isn't relevant as the fact that he played there for his entire career already is indisputable proofs of that he could play there.

If somebody had picked Giggs here, then they'd be able to use all his unused subs and it'd be hard to dispute their level being any different from the week before or after his time as a first coach.
 
Annahnomoss said:
Yeah. We can't assume they can only play one role, in one tactic - because that was what they played during "our manager". We're going by abilities and Lahm's ability to play RB wasn't any different under Guardiola. Whether he played there or not isn't relevant as the fact that he played there for his entire career already is indisputable proofs of that he could play there.

If somebody had picked Giggs here, then they'd be able to use all his unused subs and it'd be hard to dispute their level being any different from the week before or after his time as a first coach.
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Aye - that's how I would interpret it. With some players it is obvious that they simply weren't at their best, playing for team X under manager Y - and in those cases the "peak" card can be played legitimately.

Moyes would be a grotesquely interesting case in point here. I'd say you could play that card for all his players bar De Gea - they all had a decidedly bad season under him and if someone were crazy enough to pick Moyes, his United players would have to be judged accordingly.

With Giggs, however, the evidence simply isn't there either way - and so they would get the benefit of the doubt in my book.
 
Chesterlestreet said:
Aye - that's how I would interpret it. With some players it is obvious that they simply weren't at their best, playing for team X under manager Y - and in those cases the "peak" card can be played legitimately.

Moyes would be a grotesquely interesting case in point here. I'd say you could play that card for all his players bar De Gea - they all had a decidedly bad season under him and if someone were crazy enough to pick Moyes, his United players would have to be judged accordingly.

With Giggs, however, the evidence simply isn't there either way - and so they would get the benefit of the doubt in my book.
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Yeah and even under Moyes which is really extreme I doubt anybody would also put out such negative Everton tactics etc.
 
I'm taking the original Ronaldo. Lippi managed him for Inter I think.. didn't want to take the risk.
 
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We start our journey along Béla Guttmann's career path in Hungary, his country of birth, where he managed several clubs in Budapest after the war. In 47/48 he was the manager of a very young Kispesti AC side, the club later was turned into the offical army team and became famous as Budapest Honvéd FC. At the heart of the team was already one unique player, one who seemed to be far ahead of his time and of course also his opponents. The fantastic inbedwithmaradonna site wrote an article about him a while ago, which I shamelessly quote here:

By the stage that he made his debut for the national team it was apparent that Bozsik’s decision making was one of the central strengths to his game. Not only was he able to spot the right pass at the right moment, his technique was impeccable. The youngster possessed a range of passing that allowed him to find distant targets, but he was also happy to play the simple ball if it meant retaining possession. Furthermore, he was almost impossible to dispossess as he shielded the ball so well from opponents.
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http://inbedwithmaradona.com/journal/2012/10/17/the-peerless-jozsef-bozsik.html

One of the best deep lying playmakers of all time, maybe the one who defined that position more than anyone else, definitely the one our team will be built around. We pick:

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József Bozsik

In case you wondered, he has a pretty good shot in him as well. Here's his wonderful goal in the famous 6-3 win at Wembley.

 
01. Harms:-Giovanni Trapattoni - 1.
02. AngeloHenriquez:-Fabio Cappello - 1.
03. Jayvin:- Carlo Ancelotti - 1.
04. Paolo Di Canio:-Louis Van Gaal - 1.
05. Skizzo:-Udo Lattek - 1.
06. MJJ:-Marcello Lippi - 1.
07. Joga Bonito:-Udo Lattek - 1.
08. Balu/PedroMendez:-Béla Guttmann - 1. Bozsik
09. Raees:-Vicente Del Bosque - 1. Ronaldo
10. Cutch:-Alex Ferguson - 1. Beckham
11. Gio:-Giovanni Trapattoni - 1. Matthäus
12. Edgar Allan Pillow:-Fabio Capello - 1. Maldini
13. The Red Viper:-Pep Guardiola - 1. Philipp Lahm
14. DanNistelrooy:-Carlo Ancelotti - 1. Cristiano Ronaldo
15. Annahnomoss:-Vanderlei Luxemburgo - 1. Zinedine Zidane
16. Crappycraperson:-Rinus Michels - 1. Migueli

@Joga Bonito
 
01. Harms:-Giovanni Trapattoni - 1.
02. AngeloHenriquez:-Fabio Cappello - 1.
03. Jayvin:- Carlo Ancelotti - 1.
04. Paolo Di Canio:-Louis Van Gaal - 1.
05. Skizzo:-Udo Lattek - 1.
06. MJJ:-Marcello Lippi - 1.
07. Joga Bonito:-Udo Lattek - 1. Beckenbauer
08. Balu:-Béla Guttmann - 1. Bozsik
09. Raees:-Vicente Del Bosque - 1. Ronaldo
10. Cutch:-Alex Ferguson - 1. Beckham
11. Gio:-Giovanni Trapattoni - 1. Matthäus
12. Edgar Allan Pillow:-Fabio Capello - 1. Maldini
13. The Red Viper:-Pep Guardiola - 1. Philipp Lahm
14. DanNistelrooy:-Carlo Ancelotti - 1. Cristiano Ronaldo
15. Annahnomoss:-Vanderlei Luxemburgo - 1. Zinedine Zidane
16. Crappycraperson:-Rinus Michels - 1. Migueli

@MJJ
 
Raees said:
I'm taking the original Ronaldo. Lippi managed him for Inter I think.. didn't want to take the risk.
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Certainly did. Not the best of times for either of them - Ronaldo was injured for long spells during Lippi's time in charge. But on the upside this was within what most consider Ronaldo's peak years - he won the Ballon (again) the season after Lippi left, so there shouldn't be a problem there unless people decide to nitpick to the point of being unfair.
 
I do remember Magyars from the research I did for my first ever draft here, took over from someone who did not show up I think. Again coming back to the peak arguement, isn't Boszik of 47/48 similar to CR7 of Sporting? Peak can be argued during army team under Sebes circa 1954-56 ot at stretch 1952 when the club won the league? I just could not find anything the club or player did in 47/48.
 
Chesterlestreet said:
Certainly did. Not the best of times for either of them - Ronaldo was injured for long spells during Lippi's time in charge. But on the upside this was within what most consider Ronaldo's peak years - he won the Ballon (again) the season after Lippi left, so there shouldn't be a problem there unless people decide to nitpick to the point of being unfair.
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Yep, this is such a competitive draft in terms of picks.. Reality Draft was child's play in terms of the names I'm seeing in this thread already.
 
Edgar Allan Pillow said:
I do remember Magyars from the research I did for my first ever draft here, took over from someone who did not show up I think. Again coming back to the peak arguement, isn't Boszik of 47/48 similar to CR7 of Sporting? Peak can be argued during army team under Sebes circa 1954-56 ot at stretch 1952 when the club won the league? I just could not find anything the club or player did in 47/48.
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Guttmann went to the Brazil tour with Honved as their coach in 1956, so he had worked with peak Bozsik and some other unpicked magyars.
 
Edgar Allan Pillow said:
I do remember Magyars from the research I did for my first ever draft here, took over from someone who did not show up I think. Again coming back to the peak arguement, isn't Boszik of 47/48 similar to CR7 of Sporting? Peak can be argued during army team under Sebes circa 1954-56 ot at stretch 1952 when the club won the league? I just could not find anything the club or player did in 47/48.
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Don't confuse when the team peaked with when the player peaked. Honved became such an incredible side when they turned into the army side and got all the top players from all the other top clubs. It's not like I have access to the full nationalteam here, just the few players who already were at the club before it became that big. Bozsik already became a regular starter in the nationalteam in '47 and was one of the key players to turn their style of football into success. Bozsik was already 22/23 years old in '48, Ronaldo was 18 when he signed for United, that's a huge difference.
 
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