Man Utd set to appoint Director of Football (when hell freezes over)

[reddaz71]

Simply put...Utd do not want to compete financially in an over inflated transfer market,its not what the glazers signed up for,they are here to make money for themselves,nothing else,period,they have ruined this great club on the pitch and I suspect the likes of Ferguson and Charlton secretly know this,it isnt hard to see!

 

[Hamadovich86]

I think that's a decision that needs to be taken by someone above him.

Thing about suits like Woody, they're hardly the first to admit their shortcomings/feel they're out of their depth.

If hes smart, he will know that performance on the pitch will eventually affect our financial performance. If that happens he'll be in the hot seat with the Glazers who dont give a feck about football and only care about the money. He should know better than to allow things to reach that stage.

 

[soap]

Woodward is not the issue imo, blocking transfers in/out is something the club should definitely do. In principle, thats how it works at all top clubs but it shouldnt be Woodward taking those decisions, it should be a DoF that understands the game and the club.

Pretty much how I see it. And I don't have any issue with him refusing to spend £60m a piece on Persic and Maguire.

 

[L1nk]

Sorry but as much as he's made mistakes, and i'm not saying he isn't part of the problem, I don't see him as the bigger problem in the situation we are currently in with Mourinho. Fact is Mourinho has been backed to the hilt with a ludicrous amount of money and perhaps the only player he wanted that he didn't get up to this summer was Perisic. He signed 2 Central Defenders, turns out maybe they aren't so good, instead of coaching them he instead moans and complains and asks for more money to buy more, people make inevitable comparisons to City, well unfortunately no matter what way you look at it, be it sponsorships, the owners etc we do not have a bottomless pit of funds like they do, we can't just keep buying players in the summer, decide next summer those ones he bought aren't good enough so he wants to replace them with more, we can't keep doing this it isn't sustainable.

We beat Tottenham last season and they haven't spent a damn thing this summer, we did, and yet they beat us 3-0, with our only real clear cut chance coming from a bad Tottenham backpass. Fred doesn't look that good, i know it's early days but, Lukaku is not in the top tier bracket of forwards and never will be. I can understand why he's hesitant to just keep giving Mourinho funds, but at the same time if this was the case he shouldn't of given him an extension and he should of got rid of him in the summer, because this season could be dead in the water.

 

[rpitchfo]

What I disalike a lot is how the camera pans to ed every time something goes wrong on the pitch. Like it did with saf when moyes was in charge.

It’s like a representation of who really holds the power.

I don’t see it on other games.

 

[B20]

What I disalike a lot is how the camera pans to ed every time something goes wrong on the pitch. Like it did with saf when moyes was in charge.

It’s like a representation of who really holds the power.

I don’t see it on other games.

Has always been a thing with Abramovich at Chelsea.

But most other clubs don't have chairmen who make such a big deal out of publically undermining their own manager.

 

[Mercurial]

What I disalike a lot is how the camera pans to ed every time something goes wrong on the pitch. Like it did with saf when moyes was in charge.

It’s like a representation of who really holds the power.

I don’t see it on other games.

The anonymous moneyman need to take his share of the critique, not that he cares much probably. No one like when suits interfere in the creative process of ANY professional field, makes a good narrative for the media to stir feelings.

 

[CM]

It's weird how not sanctioning a lucrative deal to sign a centre-back has left him such an unpopular figure at the club. If the failure to make one more signing has made us crumble in this way, then who does that really reflect worse on? It isn't an act of betrayal, just business. Every club misses out on targets but not every manager makes such a hoo-ha over it.

As far as actual mistakes go, Woodward should never have made the move to renew Mourinho's contract last year. The writing was on the wall, even then, and now Mourinho has an extra year on his contract for when the inevitable happens

 

[el3mel]

It's weird how not sanctioning a lucrative deal to sign a centre-back has left him such an unpopular figure at the club. If the failure to make one more signing has made us crumble in this way, then who does that really reflect worse on? It isn't an act of betrayal, just business. Every club misses out on targets but not every manager makes such a hoo-ha over it.

As far as actual mistakes go, Woodward should never have made the move to renew Mourinho's contract last year. The writing was on the wall, even then, and now Mourinho has an extra year on his contract for when the inevitable happens

No it's not hs failure in signing a defender that's the only problem. Peoole aren't that simple minded. It's accumulative failure that's the proboem, and this summer just made it expolde.

His tenure here so far has been nothing but a failure and on every level, starting from managerial appointment.

 

[CM]

No it's not hs failure in signing a defender that's the only problem. Peoole aren't that simple minded. It's accumulative failure that's the proboem, and this summer just made it expolde.

His tenure here so far has been nothing but a failure and on every level, starting from managerial appointment.

It certainly seems to be the breaking point for most people. What else has he done that makes him so terrible?

 

[Mercurial]

It's weird how not sanctioning a lucrative deal to sign a centre-back has left him such an unpopular figure at the club. If the failure to make one more signing has made us crumble in this way, then who does that really reflect worse on? It isn't an act of betrayal, just business. Every club misses out on targets but not every manager makes such a hoo-ha over it.

As far as actual mistakes go, Woodward should never have made the move to renew Mourinho's contract last year. The writing was on the wall, even then, and now Mourinho has an extra year on his contract for when the inevitable happens

Woodward is as clueless as they come. He is good at the commercial side of things, something he should stick to fully.

 

[el3mel]

It certainly seems to be the breaking point for most people. What else has he done that makes him so terrible?

As I said that last summer was the one that made all his previous mistakes explode but people aren't slaughtering him for not signing that defender or making the whole point about that deal. He's getting slaughtered for all the mistakes of his reign.

 

[SER19]

Hear me out, this may be mental but it’s more open to exploring the type of profile we want.

To me, the director of football - which is not really understood what exactly he does- should oversee the footballing direction of the club, not necessarily drive it , just ensure it is focused and ensure there is clarity between the money men and the manager.

For example if a manager says I want player x, it’s not the DOF job to say yes or no or find targets, the manager and him should discuss it, see if the player fits the profile of the club, the alternatives and work towards a set of players that complement one another and a squad that has continuity as some age and others mature. They should ensure the youth set up is trying to develop a certain style of play and it should be somebody that is able to engage with personalities from top to bottom.

They will have to be affable and appreciate a managers right to feel in control while also being able to discuss football on a meaningful level to hash out disagreements and offer the manager a discerning voice.

The notion it has to be some behind the scenes senior continental is misplaced I think. The likes of Leonardo seems to do well.

So my candidate for discussion....don’t shoot me...

Is Gary Neville. Neville loves united. He gets what the club is about. He understands the game well. He seems to be an intelligent guy not just from sky or class of 92 but I’ve seen him speak really well about broader football issues such as the economics of Wembley and grassroots football. He seems very affable and the type of guy who would understand his role and be capable of building strong bonds with a manger. For example, if mourinho came to him with the suggestion to buy alderweireld in the summer, I can only imagine that whatever the outcome, the conversation would have been exhaustive, and a considered decision made, rather than ed bloody accountant Woodward flip flopping on his transfer policy every other week.

Neville would be more than able to stomach the media attention and act as a lifting rod for huge amounts of criticism and blame while allowing the manager to get on with it. I believe he would only turn on a manger when it was clear it was hopeless and having been part of successful squads is qualified to gauge that mood.

 

[FootyGirl88]

We need to hire Paul Mitchell then give the coaching job to McKenna

 

[DomesticTadpole]

Hear me out, this may be mental but it’s more open to exploring the type of profile we want.

To me, the director of football - which is not really understood what exactly he does- should oversee the footballing direction of the club, not necessarily drive it , just ensure it is focused and ensure there is clarity between the money men and the manager.

For example if a manager says I want player x, it’s not the DOF job to say yes or no or find targets, the manager and him should discuss it, see if the player fits the profile of the club, the alternatives and work towards a set of players that complement one another and a squad that has continuity as some age and others mature. They should ensure the youth set up is trying to develop a certain style of play and it should be somebody that is able to engage with personalities from top to bottom.

They will have to be affable and appreciate a managers right to feel in control while also being able to discuss football on a meaningful level to hash out disagreements and offer the manager a discerning voice.

The notion it has to be some behind the scenes senior continental is misplaced I think. The likes of Leonardo seems to do well.

So my candidate for discussion....don’t shoot me...

Is Gary Neville. Neville loves united. He gets what the club is about. He understands the game well. He seems to be an intelligent guy not just from sky or class of 92 but I’ve seen him speak really well about broader football issues such as the economics of Wembley and grassroots football. He seems very affable and the type of guy who would understand his role and be capable of building strong bonds with a manger. For example, if mourinho came to him with the suggestion to buy alderweireld in the summer, I can only imagine that whatever the outcome, the conversation would have been exhaustive, and a considered decision made, rather than ed bloody accountant Woodward flip flopping on his transfer policy every other week.

Neville would be more than able to stomach the media attention and act as a lifting rod for huge amounts of criticism and blame while allowing the manager to get on with it. I believe he would only turn on a manger when it was clear it was hopeless and having been part of successful squads is qualified to gauge that mood.

You mean the Gary Neville that clinched the Aaron Ramsey deal for us? Don't you think he might be a bit opinionated. It is fine to have an opinion, you will need that, but Gary is never wrong in his eyes and that might just lead to conflict.

 

[Garethw]

This is getting ridiculous now. Reading through threads on here and you’d think the guy was a lord of the fecking sith or something.

Woodward is not responsible for the diabolical football we have played during Mourinho’s tenure. He’s not responsible for Mourinho publically humiliating members of the squad and he isn’t responsible for the players not performing on the pitch. That is all on Mourinho.

Should Woodward be negotiating transfers? No, he shouldn’t. But he isn’t responsible for the absolute shite Mourinho has us playing week in week out.

 

[CM]

As I said that last summer was the one that made all his previous mistakes explode but people aren't slaughtering him for not signing that defender or making the whole point about that deal. He's getting slaughtered for all the mistakes of his reign.

And yet you haven't offered a single example of what all these other mistakes are...

 

[SER19]

You mean the Gary Neville that clinched the Aaron Ramsey deal for us? Don't you think he might be a bit opinionated. It is fine to have an opinion, you will need that, but Gary is never wrong in his eyes and that might just lead to conflict.

He’s opinionated for sure but I find him more stubborn on sky only

 

[el3mel]

This is getting ridiculous now. Reading through threads on here and you’d think the guy was a lord of the fecking sith or something.

Woodward is not responsible for the diabolical football we have played during Mourinho’s tenure. He’s not responsible for Mourinho publically humiliating members of the squad and he isn’t responsible for the players not performing on the pitch. That is all on Mourinho.

Should Woodward be negotiating transfers? No, he shouldn’t. But he isn’t responsible for the absolute shite Mourinho has us playing week in week out.

1- He's the one who hired Mourinho.

2- He's the one who gave him contract extension.

3- He's the one who didn't sack him even though he obviously didn't trust him anymore, leaving the tam in nutshells.

4-This is Ed's second failure of managerial appointment after LVG. Questions need to be asked on who hire managers here. At any other club and Ed would have been shown out of the door based on these 6 years.

 

[Lash]

We need to hire Paul Mitchell then give the coaching job to McKenna

That would be nice. Sort of a throw back to tradition, with an updated operating model.

 

[golden_blunder]

According to Wikipedia, we've had 21 managers since 1892 to the current date (Walter Crickmer and Sir Matt Busby each had two stints). We have won the League a record 20 times. But, we have won the league under three of those managers only (Mangnall (2), Busby (5), Ferguson (13). Therefore, 18 managers failed to deliver us a league title win. This shows how as a club, we have heavily relied on the genius of three exceptional managers, rather than any solid club structure, to deliver sustained success, on a par with the likes of Bayern Munich, Real Madrid, Barcelona et al.

Surely this demonstrates the need for the club to get a proper structure implemented, with a Director of Football at the helm, assisted by a Head Coach and team of specialists, so that we aren't dependent on an exceptional manager to provide us with success.

I agree that a DoF would be of benefit NOW, simply because the owners and Woody are not from a football background so there’s bound to be some disconnect.

I don’t agree with your reasoning though. Quite simply, there was no DoF really until perhaps the 90s at some point bur still not really in fashion until the noughties.

The structure before that was a good manager, a couple of coaches and a director who had a good understanding of football too. The Robinson fella at Liverpool, Edwards at United, they were essentially football people. Yes fergie and busby were exceptional but the others didn’t win the league because of lack of structure, they simply weren’t good enough or the other teams such as Liverpool were simply better at the time.

And whilst I agree the structure could be improved at United, it shouldn’t distract from the fact that Mourinho brings much of this trouble on himself with his baffling tactics, selections, alienating players, moaning about players in public, blaming everyone else, walking round with a face like his kids are on fire, the list goes on. A good coach would have these players more together and playing a tune of attacking football. As much as I dislike him, do you think united would be the exact same if we made no other changes and all we did was swap Mourinho for Klopp? When I think about that all together logic tells me that Mourinho is the main problem

 

[el3mel]

And yet you haven't offered a single example of what all these other mistakes are...

There are plenty. Let's see :

1- Fecking up Moyes season, chasing the whole summer after Fabre who went to Chelsea next season without much negotiation, then overpaying for Fellaini over his release clause on the deadline.

2- Spending shite ton of money on average players under LVG, making our spending go sky rocket without improving the team a little bit.

3- Giving those average players giga salary of money, like Rojo, Darmian, Blind that ended up with us struggling to offload all these deadwood as they don't accept pay cut.

4- Giving Rooney a giga contract which become a big problm after his decline that SAF saw from a mile earlier happened.

5- To show that he never learns, he went on and made the same mistake with Sanchez, disturbing the whole squad.

6- His policy in the market is spending on as much marketable players as possible without even thinking how the manager will use them. This started from Di Maria and Falcao, whom the latter LVG kept him on the bench for most of the season. This created a squad of mercenaries mixed by average players.

7- His lack of visison for the team. His stategy of appointing managers is based on panic decisions not plan. He hired 2 managers completely different from each other in the way they play, and both were panic decision after sacking the previous manager. He's not thinking of building the team based on certain way, but hiring the best name available and that's it. If Mourinho hadn't fallen out wih Chelsea, not sure what he would have dealt with LVG crisis. Not sure also what he would have done with current Mourinho crisis if Zidane wasn't available. He doesn't have any vision on building the team.

8- Finally, giving Mourinho contract extesnion midway in the season, just to refuse backing him 6 months later, then deciding to not sack him despite him not trusting him, leaving the team in nutshells. He basically wrote the whole season off before it even started.

 

[FootyGirl88]

9 - failing to set out a long term vision for the club after sacking Moyes

 

[golden_blunder]

Doubt it. Fergie performed as well under Edwards and Kenyon (though he had problems with Kenyon, unlike with Gill and Edwards) too. Hard to know how Gill would have performed with some other manager.

It was a lot of experience to lose at one time. Woody has no point of reference

 

[steffyr2]

There are plenty. Let's see :

1- Fecking up Moyes season, chasing the whole summer after Fabre who went to Chelsea next season without much negotiation, then overpaying for Fellaini over his release clause on the deadline.

2- Spending shite ton of money on average players under LVG, making our spending go sky rocket without improving the team a little bit.

3- Giving those average players giga salary of money, like Rojo, Darmian, Blind that ended up with us struggling to offload all these deadwood as they don't accept pay cut.

4- Giving Rooney a giga contract which become a big problm after his decline that SAF saw from a mile earlier happened.

5- To show that he never learns, he went on and made the same mistake with Sanchez, disturbing the whole squad.

6- His policy in the market is spending on as much marketable players as possible without even thinking how the manager will use them. This started from Di Maria and Falcao, whom the latter LVG kept him on the bench for most of the season. This created a squad of mercenaries mixed by average players.

7- His lack of visison for the team. His stategy of appointing managers is based on panic decisions not plan. He hired 2 managers completely different from each other in the way they play, and both were panic decision after sacking the previous manager. He's not thinking of building the team based on certain way, but hiring the best name available and that's it. If Mourinho hadn't fallen out wih Chelsea, not sure what he would have dealt with LVG crisis. Not sure also what he would have done with current Mourinho crisis if Zidane wasn't available. He doesn't have any vision on building the team.

8- Finally, giving Mourinho contract extesnion midway in the season, just to refuse backing him 6 months later, then deciding to not sack him despite him not trusting him, leaving the team in nutshells. He basically wrote the whole season off before it even started.

Pretty much this....oh, and add #9

#9- Deciding to throw a press conference discussing at length to the entire English press corps why he didn't support the manager, though money to fund an experienced defender was available. Explaining why, in his opinion, our present players were good enough.

 

[CM]

There are plenty. Let's see :

1- Fecking up Moyes season, chasing the whole summer after Fabre who went to Chelsea next season without much negotiation, then overpaying for Fellaini over his release clause on the deadline.

2- Spending shite ton of money on average players under LVG, making our spending go sky rocket without improving the team a little bit.

3- Giving those average players giga salary of money, like Rojo, Darmian, Blind that ended up with us struggling to offload all these deadwood as they don't accept pay cut.

4- Giving Rooney a giga contract which become a big problm after his decline that SAF saw from a mile earlier happened.

5- To show that he never learns, he went on and made the same mistake with Sanchez, disturbing the whole squad.

6- His policy in the market is spending on as much marketable players as possible without even thinking how the manager will use them. This started from Di Maria and Falcao, whom the latter LVG kept him on the bench for most of the season. This created a squad of mercenaries mixed by average players.

7- His lack of visison for the team. His stategy of appointing managers is based on panic decisions not plan. He hired 2 managers completely different from each other in th way the play, and both were panic decision after sacking the previous manager. He's not thinking of building the team based on certain way, but hiring the best name available and that's it. If Mourinho hadn't fallen out wih Chelsea, not sure what he would have dealt with LVG crisis. Not sure also what he would have done with current Mourinho crisis if Zidane wasn't available. He doesn't have any vision on building the team.

8- Finaly, giving Mourinho contract extesnion midway in the season, just to refuse backing him 6 months later, then deciding to not sack him despite him not trusting him, leaving the team in nutshells. He basically wrote the whole season off before it evn started.

Reasons 1-5 are a result of backing the manager in charge at the time. I don't think it's fair to criticise him for those things and then criticise him for baulking at the fees asked of us this summer as well.

There may be an element of truth to your marketability point but he has never sanctioned a deal to sign a player without the approval of the manager. And there are plenty of examples of players we've signed with him as CEO who I wouldn't describe as marketable.

I do agree with your last two points. The succession planning in terms of appointing managers has been poor. We don't know how much of this is in his jurisdiction though and directly because of him. He goes about getting the targets but isn't necessarily the one calling the shots.

 

[el3mel]

Reasons 1-5 are a result of backing the manager in charge at the time. I don't think it's fair to criticise him for those things and then criticise him for baulking at the fees asked of us this summer as well.

There may be an element of truth to your marketability point but he has never sanctioned a deal to sign a player without the approval of the manager. And there are plenty of examples of players we've signed with him as CEO who I wouldn't describe as marketable.

I do agree with your last two points. The succession planning in terms of appointing managers has been poor. We don't know how much of this is in his jurisdiction though and directly because of him. He goes about getting the targets but isn't necessarily the one calling the shots.

It has been 3 managers in a row. Sure all of them can't be stupid when it comes to market. 1 maybe but not all of them. The one who actually negotiates with players should start taking blame if 6 years in charge, 3 managers and same problem. He is the only common factor in these last 6 years.

 

[B20]

It's weird how not sanctioning a lucrative deal to sign a centre-back has left him such an unpopular figure at the club. If the failure to make one more signing has made us crumble in this way, then who does that really reflect worse on? It isn't an act of betrayal, just business. Every club misses out on targets but not every manager makes such a hoo-ha over it.

As far as actual mistakes go, Woodward should never have made the move to renew Mourinho's contract last year. The writing was on the wall, even then, and now Mourinho has an extra year on his contract for when the inevitable happens

every club fails in the market - not every club has chairmen then briefing the media that they would gladly have spent much more, just not on the targets mourinho wanted.

 

[Dr. Dwayne]

I do agree with your last two points. The succession planning in terms of appointing managers has been poor. We don't know how much of this is in his jurisdiction though and directly because of him. He goes about getting the targets but isn't necessarily the one calling the shots.

He's the chief fecking executive, man! If he isn't calling the shots then he's a dud and should be replaced and if he is calling the shots, which he is, he's incompetent and should be replaced.

 

[Dec9003]

every club fails in the market - not every club has chairmen then briefing the media that they would gladly have spent much more, just not on the targets mourinho wanted.

Very true, Mourinho even said in an interview after the window closed that he's not fussed now, it's all about getting the most out of the squad, that reads much better than well we would've bought Varane but idiot Mourinho wanted Maguire, never even heard of him mate shit manager.
Woodward drives me mad.

 

[JohnnyKills]

From the Reddit page: Woodward has been briefing to the press again, saying he's not about to sack Mourinho. You can read it here.

He says that he has full confidence in Mourinho and he definitely, absolutely, 100% won't be sacked before we play Watford in two weeks' time. Although the board may change their mind if we get smashed at Burnley.

So he doesn't really have full confidence at all then.

 

[Robbie Boy]

I think he should really stick the commercial side of things with hopefully a DoF coming in. However, I think he was right not to spunk ridiculous amounts of cash on Harry fecking Maguire, to be completely honest.

 

[B20]

From the Reddit page: Woodward has been briefing to the press again, saying he's not about to sack Mourinho. You can read it here.

He says that he has full confidence in Mourinho and he definitely, absolutely, 100% won't be sacked before we play Watford in two weeks' time. Although the board may change their mind if we get smashed at Burnley.

So he doesn't really have full confidence at all then.

He's utterly odious in a way that transcends rivalry.

 

[The Cat]

From the Reddit page: Woodward has been briefing to the press again, saying he's not about to sack Mourinho. You can read it here.

He says that he has full confidence in Mourinho and he definitely, absolutely, 100% won't be sacked before we play Watford in two weeks' time. Although the board may change their mind if we get smashed at Burnley.

So he doesn't really have full confidence at all then.

That doesn't sound legit to me.

 

[King Kana]

See I don't quite get this, unless I'm forgetting our defence wasn't that bad last season, and we have the same players, you could even argue Bailly and Linelof should really be better this season also, now suddenly we just look so weak there.

Yes because your manager prioritized defense, knowing the defenders are either gash, rash, or sicknotes and De Gea.

But you lot got the pitchforks out cos of Pep/Klopp and now he is opening you lot up and you are shipping goals left right and center. Your defense is dire to bebe honest. The fact that 3 out of your back 4 last night were Fergie buys says it all really. Are there any top 3, hell, top 10 teams in the world clamoring to sign any of those defenders? The answer should tell you everything you need to know.

 

[Sandikan]

The vetoing signings was a massive statement.

The moment that happened the whole thing was on Rocky ground.

Yesterdays smash was the first time I've started thinking Jose's time is nearing an end now.

Every one knew the third season thing, the falling out with players and meltdown. Most of us thought thought itd be different here.

We've lost two games and we haven't played most of the hard games.
We could end up anywhere now, competing with arsenal and Everton for 6th

 

[JohnnyKills]

The vetoing signings was a massive statement.

The moment that happened the whole thing was on Rocky ground.

Yesterdays smash was the first time I've started thinking Jose's time is nearing an end now.

Every one knew the third season thing, the falling out with players and meltdown. Most of us thought thought itd be different here.

We've lost two games and we haven't played most of the hard games.
We could end up anywhere now, competing with arsenal and Everton for 6th

The most damning thing is that he won't sell Martial. Mourinho clearly wants him out, so Woodward's refusal to sanction the deal suggest he sees Martial as the longer-term bet. Given that Martial's only got a maximum of two years left on his contract, it can only mean he expects Mourinho to go fairly imminently.

 

[Mainoldo]

Yes because your manager prioritized defense, knowing the defenders are either gash, rash, or sicknotes and De Gea.

But you lot got the pitchforks out cos of Pep/Klopp and now he is opening you lot up and you are shipping goals left right and center. Your defense is dire to bebe honest. The fact that 3 out of your back 4 last night were Fergie buys says it all really. Are there any top 3, hell, top 10 teams in the world clamoring to sign any of those defenders? The answer should tell you everything you need to know.

Who’s after City’s CB? Your argument is pretty silly. All of them except Smalling are first team internationals. I’m sick of José getting into fans heads mentally it’s a joke. This was the guy who had Chelsea fans calling their players Judas and cowards of them which now plays for us in Matic. If the same thing continues to happen wherever you go, maybe it’s not your environment maybe it’s just you!

 

[Mainoldo]

The most damning thing is that he won't sell Martial. Mourinho clearly wants him out, so Woodward's refusal to sanction the deal suggest he sees Martial as the longer-term bet. Given that Martial's only got a maximum of two years left on his contract, it can only mean he expects Mourinho to go fairly imminently.

Well duh. Did you see Mourinho being our manger past this season?

 

[Mercurial]

is there a link to the woodward press conference at market closure? can't find it.