Ed can get a lot of stick for many many things, but the signing of Sanchez is not one of them. No one saw him shitting the bed like he has.
Man Utd set to appoint Director of Football (when hell freezes over)
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I think for pretty much every big decision that Ed made (Moyes, LVG, Mou, Ibra, Mata, Pogba etc.) , most of us were in favor of it at the time. Hindsight bias etc. and if Ole's rein goes tits up in the coming weeks, people would still be blaming Ed for not getting Poch / a more experienced interim mgr. He's a smart cookie and replacing Fergie isn't a joke so it's somewhat expected that we've had 4-5 years of downtime. But given all the misses in terms of mgmt appointments so far, I'd be very concerned if the next one's a bust too.
There comes a point at which backing someone can put a noose around your own neck. Woodward is hardly the first executive in the world to back someone right up until they couldn't. Even Ed couldn't go along with Mourinho any more. And it's not like it happened overnight. Those defending Jose tend to gloss over the circumstances surrounding the extension and then the circumstances during the summer. I tend to believe Jose thought he could simply run over everyone (players included) and spend as much as he wanted and play the victim card when called out on it. He was wrong.
The fact that Ole has done what he's done, in the way that he's done it, with the same roster Jose had shows that Woodward, or someone behind him, made the right call.
1. Extending the contract was not idotic. There were few if any indicators of progress(except an undeserved position in the league which is more an effect than a cause making the position baseless) last season. And when someone(J. MendeZ) started the PSG rumours, Woodward caved.
2. I'm not saying that firing JM was the wrong call, as it should have happened sooner given the circumstances. What i'm saying is that given that Woodward extended the contract there must have been a plan for the summer and the next year on what should be done with the squad.
3. Praising someone for trying to clean up the mess one is partially to blame for is like praising someone for not doing anything stupid...
4. The appointment of OGS was a decision that might have been influenced by other entities beside Woodward.
Some people did. The signs were there during his last 6 months at Arsenal and his style of play.
Well they were in the minority and very very silent on here.
I don't think anyone expected this dross, even if they thought he was on the decline
People were at least very vocal regarding his wages
Voiced my reservations regarding Sanchez as a player after the transfer, as it came as a suprise. But this was more based on my low opinion of Sanchez, and not his "out of form" situation.
The majority didn't agree with Moyes, but then he was more on Fergie and Gill. Technically Ed might have been able to cancel that once he took over, but it would be a very big ask to expect him to go against Fergie and Gill with his very first action.
Otherwise, yes you are right that the majority agreed with most of the decisions that are now, in hindsight, looked at as mistakes.
On this site for every big decision the dissenters are shouted down to a point that it starts to look like consensus.
What form was he in? From what I recall, Martial was on a better run. If you look at the stats, Sanchez was beginning to look a shadow of the player he was.
A lot of people weren't that enthused by his signing. People were keen on Griezeman until summer 2017. I remember people being excited when Pogba came back. Sanchez was a car crash of a signing which was badly timed. Still not sure what the reasoning behind it was.
Yeah and rightfully so, I think we all questioned that sort of money, and that was when we expected him to play well! It’s even worse now considering his performances.
Sorry, I wasn't. Nothing to do with his form, simply the fact that we don't need another LEFT winger. We need someone comfortable playing on the right. The 50-50 rotation between Rashford and Martial on the left was barely enough to satisfy both young players and they were doing OK, Mourinho just made it worse. And you know what, Perisc operates on the left as well.
Nail on the head Stacks! It speaks volumes of Jose's ability to judge a player and build a team these days when its put into perspective exactly like this. I've echoed similar sentiments recently on here and its hard to say otherwise.
Well we don't know for certain but all we can do is go off rumours and judge how reliable they are. I mean if a rumour simply isn't going away and its the same story across various media outlets / journalists then you can tend to take it with some reliability. Perisic rumours have been there since the summer Jose rocked up to OT and didn't disperse at any point really. He quite clearly wanted rid of Martial as Martial has done a 180 recently and extended his contract and said the problem was Jose in recent interviews, as has Pogba whom Jose signed for a World Record fee to only fall out with him. Standard Jose when the wheels come off his expensively assembled bus.
It's funny how you take such issue about Woodward and giving Jose an extension, buying Fred and Sanchez wages... Yet you don't post much about Jose falling out with his world record signing. Biased much?
What's the issue with Fred? Kid just needs time, showed up to OT with an injury and has had problems off field and also adjusting to the physical nature of the premier league. Reported yesterday that the coaching staff are very, very impressed with him in training but still feel he isn't quite ready for a consistent spot in the team yet. He'll come good, it'll be a similar situation as Lindelof, Evra and Vidic.
4. Sanchez, wonderful hindsight bias there. You'd of been hard pressed to find a poster that complained a year back when he signed.
5. We'd won 2 trophies in our first season and sat 2nd in the league at the time of the contract renewal. He had the majority of the squad onside at that point, maybe only Shaw and Martial were getting heat from him. How things panned out after that is largely on Jose, spoke very unprofessionally about United after the Sevilla disgrace and continued to fall out with more members of the squad including Lukaku, Pogba, Sanchez, Bailly and probably a few others. Something I wasn't aware of until much later but I do very much dislike was Jose showing to the Munich anniversary in a bloody tracksuit! The man didn't give a flying monkeys about our history or club at all and that was an insult to show up to a formal event like a council estate chav!
Things just got worse in the summer, telling supporters not to attend matches, writing off the season completely and our squad saying 2nd was a miracle and sulking publicly over not getting his precious centre half and very, very publicly abusing the board, the club and probably the final nail in the coffin being a childish and embarrassing fall out with Pogba for all the world to watch.
1. We went from 6th to 2nd and although its not a huge amount points wise we were 8pts better off, still in the Champions league and FA Cup. Your acting like he handed Jose a new 5 year deal or something. He only extended it by 2 years which is very very minimal. The reason why the pay off was as much as it was recently is because of Jose's inflated wage demands! He rakes in approx 16m per year from all reports.
2. Plans change or if your dealing with an arrogant arse like Jose who refused to budge on his targets and demanded the sale of top players like Martial and Pogba, I'm not surprised the board refused to deal with him. You can't possibly tell me that Jose was in the right here?
3. The vast majority wanted Jose in and raved about the good times coming back, that there was absolutely no way Jose could fail. You were probably one of the many that felt we were back on track with his appointment, personally I never wanted him near the club.
4. Where's the issue with that? We've a board for god sake and they all have their say on matters of this nature. The 2 Sirs are no doubt often consulted for their feedback, Gill, Edwards and the Glazers also among others.
I've read back over some of your posts, you clearly are very anti Glazer / Woodward and in my experience there's generally little sense or reasoning to be found with that kind of supporter. The Glazers aren't perfect by any means, but its generally the anti Glazers kind that then rave about what a Genius Gill was (so far from the truth) and praise Edwards (ran the club into ruin and huge debt at one point and only saved the club by making us a PLC).
The grass isn't always greener and whilst there have been mistakes in our recent history they undoubtedly financially backed all managers in recent times, the revenue is insane and that in turn keeps ticket prices down for supporters to attend matches whilst many other clubs raise their prices.
Monchi looks to be off to Arsenal. I will be please I'd we missed out on him. Personally think our choice should be someone that knows the club and has a clear idea how a United side ought to play.
Again rumours. Person not being a creting/trying to get fired would have been sensible enough to not swap Martial for Willian or selling the franchise player (Pogba).
Where in the world did you get the impression that i in any way supported the appointment of JM? Outdated, defensive style of football suited for short term success rather than long term. The same applies to his behaviour in general. Only two reasons i saw as the potential benefits from appointing JM were clearing out the deadwood and attracting big players.
He might come good, he might not. With the way the club/staff are talking about players now do you really think they would speak about the players like JM did? Even if he was/is performing bad in training, the coaches and managers we have now would not bash him in the media. Him being 25 with over 200 senior games and that fee one might be justified in expecting a better situation.
Did not post anything regarding the transfer at that time so can not claim hindsight, but i think some Arsenalfans said he was not the player he was. I never liked the transfer, but this is more due to my opinion of Sanchez as a player, and not due to his "dip in form".
Underlying statistics. One of the few things i agree with Jose on is that his second place last season might be one of the biggest achivements in his career. But his is not due to the squad being weak or his "great management". It is due to the performance and chances created and allowed by the team. Coming second last season was a statistical anomaly, and while results is what matters in the end... The stats on important succesdrivers is what matters in the long run. Chances created, chances allowed and similar succesfactors.
Again 2. place was a statistical anomaly so he might claim "miracle", but not for the good reasons. Can be argued that he tried to force through a transfer or get sacked.
My issue with the new contract and the sacking and not backing; When you decide to extend the contract with a person there should be some sort of long term planning.... We extend the contract for the next two years. We expect you achive this and that. We agree on what players we should buy etc. If they extended the contract and they had a plan for improving the squad and backing the manager, then not doing it...
It is not like JM suddenly changed behaviour... The board knew what they got when they appointed him and when they extended.
Again: For clearing out the deadwood and for attracting big players. Hopefully top 4. Never expected him to stay for a long term. His whole approach to being a manager is short term.
Again showing the lack of people with the right competence in parts of the footballing structure.
So since i don't like the Glazers i have to love Gill and Edwars? Do i either have to support Woodward or JM? Can i not say that both are at fault? This is not black and white, the same as the situation with PP and JM. Pogbas statements in the media were not good, but at the same time JM statements about certain players were no better.
Glazers/Woodward have increased the revenue, adapted financially to the changes in football(State owned clubs) and taken advantage of the global reach the club has. For this i think they(Woodward/Glazers) should be praised.
What i don't like is the lack of transparency, the "Playing performance doesn't really have a meaningful impact on what we can do on the commercial side of the business" statement. While true, it basically says we are not in it for trophies, we are in it for the £££. I'm more in favour of the german 50+1 model. And that a club should be "owned by the fans".
I'm not saying that the managers since SAF retired have not been backed financially, it is the way the money have been spent. No long term plan. Buying parts that does not fit together. People with little experience/competence in controlling the footballing side of a club involved in making those decisions. Personally, i would not put Nicky Butt as the man doing our accounting. Would you?
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Wow, just wow... There really is no pleasing some fans. Do you even enjoy supporting United at all? 
All any of us can go off is rumours, you've used rumours yourself to support your own arguments. Same as anyone else on here, but as I point out I'd personally prefer to follow the rumour that is repeated by numerous outlets.
Least we agree on this
Yeah cause talking about the players in the manner Jose done was productive? I'd suggest talking about them positively in public is the right thing to do. Public, negative sentiments are counter productive! The fee was perfectly reasonable in today's market. He was banned for a year, hence him having played fewer games. So no, "one" would say £50m approx is the going rate for a player with Champions league experience. Just a point to note as well, He was good enough for City too, but apparently cause we signed him now he's not good enough.
What complete and utter crap! One of footballs most expensively assembled squads and with the highest paid player in PL history getting 2nd was a "statistical anomaly"? Sorry but this new lad, Ole something is making this kind of sentiment ridiculous. It's sad to you actually believe Jose's sentiments at all. I'd suggest you ignore his mindless warbling as its little more than the ravings of a madman, it was standard Jose in survival mode. Abuse the club, its players and board and all about self preservation.
The only team to out spend us in the league was whom and where did they finish?
I've no doubt they hoped to come to a mutual understanding over plans (targets) and achievements (challenge for league, win it). But when your manager decides to publicly humiliate himself and the club instead, what can the board do? They showed support of him in Jan when he got his contract and the message to the all was he's staying.
If they hadn't of given him the contract extension you'd complain as well, you'd say there is no future planning and leaving it late on contracts shows lack of planning, just like you have above.
Up to Sevilla his sentiments were about a long term stay, that he wanted to create a similar legacy to Ferguson. I wasn't buying it either, but as the board had signed him and then given him the extension they allowed him that chance to prove everyone wrong and supported him.
I was simply saying in my experience having spoken to many anti Glazer types. If your looking for transparency, I'd suggest you support another club cause in all my years of supporting United its never been there and likely never will be. It's how the club is ran, they don't discuss the inner workings of the club publicly.
Thing is, Woodward was making better football decisions than Jose recently. Says a lot really of his standing in the game these days.
United has always been ran this way, the manager runs the football side by and large. Ferguson, Moyes, LVG and Jose all in the same role, the same way Edwards, Kenyon, Gill and now Woodward done and do the same job.
There's an argument that we need to modernize and I'd be in favor of that myself, just have to wait and see what decisions are made in the months ahead.
All any of us can go off is rumours, you've used rumours yourself to support your own arguments. Same as anyone else on here, but as I point out I'd personally prefer to follow the rumour that is repeated by numerous outlets.
Least we agree on this
Yeah cause talking about the players in the manner Jose done was productive? I'd suggest talking about them positively in public is the right thing to do. Public, negative sentiments are counter productive! The fee was perfectly reasonable in today's market. He was banned for a year, hence him having played fewer games. So no, "one" would say £50m approx is the going rate for a player with Champions league experience. Just a point to note as well, He was good enough for City too, but apparently cause we signed him now he's not good enough.
What complete and utter crap! One of footballs most expensively assembled squads and with the highest paid player in PL history getting 2nd was a "statistical anomaly"? Sorry but this new lad, Ole something is making this kind of sentiment ridiculous. It's sad to you actually believe Jose's sentiments at all. I'd suggest you ignore his mindless warbling as its little more than the ravings of a madman, it was standard Jose in survival mode. Abuse the club, its players and board and all about self preservation.
The only team to out spend us in the league was whom and where did they finish?
I've no doubt they hoped to come to a mutual understanding over plans (targets) and achievements (challenge for league, win it). But when your manager decides to publicly humiliate himself and the club instead, what can the board do? They showed support of him in Jan when he got his contract and the message to the all was he's staying.
If they hadn't of given him the contract extension you'd complain as well, you'd say there is no future planning and leaving it late on contracts shows lack of planning, just like you have above.
Up to Sevilla his sentiments were about a long term stay, that he wanted to create a similar legacy to Ferguson. I wasn't buying it either, but as the board had signed him and then given him the extension they allowed him that chance to prove everyone wrong and supported him.
I was simply saying in my experience having spoken to many anti Glazer types. If your looking for transparency, I'd suggest you support another club cause in all my years of supporting United its never been there and likely never will be. It's how the club is ran, they don't discuss the inner workings of the club publicly.
Thing is, Woodward was making better football decisions than Jose recently. Says a lot really of his standing in the game these days.
United has always been ran this way, the manager runs the football side by and large. Ferguson, Moyes, LVG and Jose all in the same role, the same way Edwards, Kenyon, Gill and now Woodward done and do the same job.
There's an argument that we need to modernize and I'd be in favor of that myself, just have to wait and see what decisions are made in the months ahead.
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Maybe no one wants to be Manchester United's DoF as long as Ed Woodward is in a position to void their decisions related to football operations.
Cool narrative
One of the reasons why SAF was able to be succesful for so long was that he was never satisfied. And this is a common factor for people/organizations that have a succes over a certain period of time. Being satisfied is one of the main drivers behind stagnation/organizational regression. The same goes for not being critical (playing the devils advocate).Wow, just wow... There really is no pleasing some fans. Do you even enjoy supporting United at all?
Fair enough.
What got him being banned for using masking drugs during his time in Brazil have with him not playing now? And having CL-experience does not make him automatically good. Sanchez was good enough for City as well. Regarding how managers talks about players in public, i wholeheartedly agree. Should always speak about the players in a positive manner regardless of how they perform in training and matches.
If you read my post again you might see that i was not talking about it being JMs doing that we finished second or that the squad was bad, i made the argument that based on successfactors in football like chances created and allowed we should never have finished 2. I was in no way saying that we overperformed due to JMs "genius tactics", but that we, based on succesfactors, should never have finished top 4.
Short term: Luck and chance plays a role (Winning while being outplayed, our losing while having the most chances)
Long term: Successfactors plays a larger role --> The more chances you create the more goals you will score.
Again, both parties are to blame. Club did not back up and JM decides to behave like a child.
I'm being critical of two different scenarios. The first is why did we extend the contract. The second scenario is after the club extended the contract. It is not like i would complain regardless of what the club did as these are two different scenarios.
Before, we actually knew somewhat who made this or that decision. Now, we do not even know how they operate, and since we do not know the fans can only speculate. Who decides what, who is to blame for what, who should we praise. The lack of transparancy creates a lack of accountability.
Whoever we get we need someone strong enough to stand up to Woodward's tendency to want "Marquee" signings.
It's quite telling that the worst decsions he has made has been when someone has been egging him on with a narrative about "beating the competition."
Extending the Translator's contract or signing Sanchez were both motivated by making a statement of intent rather than making the best decision for the team.
Going into the transfer market is a mixed bag... for every surefire winner there is a horrible misfire and we have seen far more of the latter recently, mainly because we have been trawling at the older end of the market looking for big names.
We need a more balanced approach where we sign up young talent and develop it, with the occasional foray into older, more experienced players.
The issue for me is the development side, given how poorly managed the U23 side is and the limited scope it offers as a competition. We probably need a proper agreement with a European club....which is why I hope we get Van Der Sar as DOF with a strong link to Ajax.
It's quite telling that the worst decsions he has made has been when someone has been egging him on with a narrative about "beating the competition."
Extending the Translator's contract or signing Sanchez were both motivated by making a statement of intent rather than making the best decision for the team.
Going into the transfer market is a mixed bag... for every surefire winner there is a horrible misfire and we have seen far more of the latter recently, mainly because we have been trawling at the older end of the market looking for big names.
We need a more balanced approach where we sign up young talent and develop it, with the occasional foray into older, more experienced players.
The issue for me is the development side, given how poorly managed the U23 side is and the limited scope it offers as a competition. We probably need a proper agreement with a European club....which is why I hope we get Van Der Sar as DOF with a strong link to Ajax.
Well it was SAF & Gill who got this horror show rolling by allowing the squad to stagnate and in turn hire Moyes. We've been trying to recover ever since really.
You stated he had a lack of playing time (apps vs age), I was simply explaining the reason behind it. Just to divulge further on the CL comment, you can guarantee in today's game if a player is performing in the CL their price will raise and yes he was just coming off the back of a good CL campaign where he played really well against City in particular, probably made them curious then to see if he'd sign.
"Statistical anomalies" and now "successfactors". You do love you some managerial jargon don't you.
Reality is he had one of the best squads in the Premier and just decided to play s*it on a stick football cause he's a dinosaur. So if luck came into it, it was down to Jose's inability to adapt to the modern game and we clung on for many reasons as he instructed players to sit deep, not attack and kill teams off.
Now we've Ole and we are attacking sides, scoring more and killing teams off. The periods of games where we sit back its on the basis of counter attacking football and still the emphasis is to attack, the exception so far to this really was the Spurs game where they dominated us and can feel hard done by.
It's crazy to think we've anything but a squad capable of finishing top 3 guaranteed. We're back in with possibility again now after only a few weeks of a new manager so no its not a statistical anomaly or anything jargon you want to use. We need some strength in depth alright but Top 3 should be done without question, challenging isn't out of the realms of possibilities either.
Cause of 2 trophies, 6th to 2nd...there was at that exact time progression to be seen. How he carried on after that was another situation entirely and things fell apart.
The rumour was if a genuine world class CB was available we would of made every attempt at signing them. Toby is good but at 29 and the rumoured prices thrown around, I wasn't overly eager to get him myself. Maguire is no better than most of what we got already so why waste funds for the sake of it? How could they trust his judgement of players when he wanted to sell Martial and sign Willian and / or Perisic?
By the summer I think he genuinely wanted the sack and done everything in his power to get sacked. He's the master of the pay off!
Sure
The DoF could be important, as one or two more signings like Pogba or Martial could lift the club to a whole new level.
It's exciting times because Young has signed a new contract, so if we do sign a big player it could arguably be a RW.
It's exciting times because Young has signed a new contract, so if we do sign a big player it could arguably be a RW.
If we are going to find the root cause we could go all the way back to SAF and the Rock of Gibraltar.
We stagnated because we did not spend the little money we had available from 2005 until the refinancing in 2010 well.
200+ seniorgames by the age of 25 is not lack of playing time. My arguement was that given the amount of games he has played he should be more adaptable (assuming and hoping this is one of the problems with him not playing) than what he seems to be. Experienced players (something i would argue Fred is with caps for Brazil, CL experience and 200+ seniorgames) should be able to adapt quickly to new clubs. If Fred was a young promising player with little experience he would understandably need and be given time to adapt. As i have posted in the Fred thread before: I hope you are right and he becomes an asset for us, but i dont think it is going to happen. And based on the current situation i would say that sofar the transfer of Fred seems like a bad deal.
You win matches by scoring more goals than the opposition (teams that play attacking football) or by conceding one less goal than the opposition (Mourinho). You score goals by creating chances. The more chances you create over a period of time, the more goals you are likely to score. The same can be said about conceding goals and chances. The less chances you concede, the less goals you can expect to concede --> successfactors.
Last season we were 7th in expected goals scored (based on chances created) and 6th in expected goals conceded. In total we were 7th in expected goals difference. While these states can be influenced by particular games and a serious lack of performance over a month, there is still a strong correlation between these underlying stats and how the outcome of a game/season is. Ranking 7th in expected goal difference makes finishing 2 in the league somewhat of a statistical anomaly.
On your points of issues with Mourinho i agree completely.
Regarding the quality of the squad: It is not as good as you portray it to be, but not anywhere close as bad as Mourinho said it was.
I put some money on Mourinho getting sacked as the first manager this season right after the WC final. So i agree with you. Strange that we would go into a season with a manager in charge trying to get sacked?
@Revan thought I'd post in here save derailing the De Ligt thread
Could you explain their role? We all probably have a vague idea (or what we think it looks like) from what I know it's about installing a consistent philosophy through the team and not continuously changing from manager to manager. They stay in constant contact with managers over new staff/players, overlooking the youth set up and also deal with business decisions such as contracts and transfers.
Is that it in a nutshell and what more is there to it? Not being arsey just genuinely interested if I'm on the right track.
Could you explain their role? We all probably have a vague idea (or what we think it looks like) from what I know it's about installing a consistent philosophy through the team and not continuously changing from manager to manager. They stay in constant contact with managers over new staff/players, overlooking the youth set up and also deal with business decisions such as contracts and transfers.
Is that it in a nutshell and what more is there to it? Not being arsey just genuinely interested if I'm on the right track.
I was all for getting a DoF during Mourinho's reign. But now I think I'd trust Ole more with the long term interests of the club than any DoF. I reckon we should try to hire a head of recruitment or something like that role who works with or under Ole. Make Ole the main man.
PS: this seems to have become an unpopular opinion in the years since Fergie's retirement, but I think he left us a very good squad. Its not his fault that the managers that followed him couldn't get them playing well and sell most of our young prospects. We did have some old heads that were heading to retirement, but Rafael, Welbeck, Evra, Kagawa, Hernandez, Nani, Valencia, De Gea, Smalling, Jones, etc had a lot of football left in them. Our problem was never a lack of investment. It was a lack of management. We should have appointed Ole straight after Fergie, or at least he should have been grooming an assistant to take over instead of appointing his mate.
PS: this seems to have become an unpopular opinion in the years since Fergie's retirement, but I think he left us a very good squad. Its not his fault that the managers that followed him couldn't get them playing well and sell most of our young prospects. We did have some old heads that were heading to retirement, but Rafael, Welbeck, Evra, Kagawa, Hernandez, Nani, Valencia, De Gea, Smalling, Jones, etc had a lot of football left in them. Our problem was never a lack of investment. It was a lack of management. We should have appointed Ole straight after Fergie, or at least he should have been grooming an assistant to take over instead of appointing his mate.
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Welbeck, Hernandez, Valencia and Smalling are limited footballers.
Jones was still prone to injuries under SAF.
Evra was not a young player with many years left in him especially when the position is taken into consideration.
Nani was never a player to lead an attack, but he was still useful. Kagawa was a player that would suit a team dominant in possession.
The starting 11 SAF won the season with in his last season was not that mutch better than the Leichester team that won the league. Of course it did not help appointing Moyes and replacing the coaching staff, or hiring a possesionbased manager for a team with few players with the needed quality on the ball to play possessionbased football.
Fact remains that our last title winning team had a fairly young average age. You can say that "Welbeck, Hernandez, Valencia and Smalling are limited footballers" but Fletcher, Brown, O'Shea, Park, etc were also limited footballers but we managed to win a fair few leagues with them.
Ole for example was also a fairly limited footballer who had a good first touch and really one trick to make space for a shot and a decent shot from tight angles. Its the manager's job to recognize - limited though they may be - what qualities to maximize and utilize of his players. And none of our managers since SAF really did that.
Moyes always seemed to be on an ego trip to bring a big name into United and yet play Everton football, Van Gaal was more interested in his philosophy than getting the most from his players and Mourinho just wanted to get sacked and earn a big paycheck. The managerial appointments are on the board yes, especially after Moyes. But a lack of investment? No.
It depends on the person and the club. In some, they have close to absolute control as in firing and hiring managers, signing and selling players without manager having a say in it, essentially controlling the club in all sporting levels.
Probably a preferred version is the one of BVB, where the DoF was seen more as an equal (rather than the boss) of the manager (Klopp back then, don't know what happened since). They decide who becomes the manager, preferably someone who shares the same version of him, and then back up the manager in the sense of finding the transfers (but the manager having a say in them too), deciding whom to sell (but again in agreement with the manager), obviously having control over the academy and the scouts. In these cases, they are considered as partners and report to the CEO, instead of manager reporting to DoF while DoF reporting to CEO. Manchester City seem to have kind of the same structure, with Pep and their 'DoFs' (Bergeristein and Soriano) being partners, rather than Pep's boss.
But yes, the main job of DoF is to ensure the long term vision of the club (knowing that managers have a short life in a club). When you had a (good) DoF you ensure that the change from one manager to another goes smooth (as in not hiring the best manager, but hiring the best manager for the club), typically you sign players whom suit the system rather than just good players. Exactly the opposite of what we have been doing (hiring managers with totally different styles, signing just good players instead of ensuring that they suit us).
This system while ancient in football too, is more used in American sports. In NBA, I think that only San Antonio (and for some time LA Clippers) don't have a DoF (there is called General Manager). And well in case of Spurs, their GM back then (Popovich) decided that instead of trying to find a good coach, he can become the coach himself, and the rest is history (5 rings won). He is essentially NBA's Sir Alex, and in those rare cases you don't need two people for the job. Btw, in NBA it is not super straightforward, there exists also Director of Basketball which is not necessarily the GM and might be superior to GM.
Btw, one thing that often gets mistaken is that DoF negotiates contracts and sets transfer budget. That might happen in some cases, but is not an always. Contracts and transfer budget are more decisions of the executive officers at the club (money man). A DoF is the guy who stands between money men and the manager. With a good DoF, we wouldn't need CEO to block the manager's transfers, it would have been the DoF (who is more a football man and more informed) who would have been doing it in the first place, with Ed doing what he does best, getting money for the club.
Of course, a bad DoF can be as harmful as a bad manager. But by delegating jobs to two men (instead of one) you lower the probability of failure.
Not sure how you could argue that SAF left us a good squad. It was filled with mediocrity, it was just SAF's brilliance that made them look good. Look at the ones who left since then, how many made anything of themselves?
Cleverley, Anderson, Fabio, Rafael (he was good but ended up stagnating), Rooney (contract fiasco - SAF actually allowed Moyes to move him which would have been great), RVP (old), Ferdinand (old), Vidic (old/injury prone), Jones (injury prone), Kagawa (didn't mesh and was eventually sold without really getting much better), Welbeck (limited), Nani (sold and never found the same form), Fletcher (stomach issues), Evra (aging).
Basically SAF left us with De Gea, Valencia, Young, Carrick, Lingard (youth setup still correct?), and Smalling that have shown long term benefits for the club. Hardly enough to say he left us in a good place.
And anyone against a DOF is blinded by the idea of Ole succeeding. No DOF has killed us for 3 straight managers. Yes, Ole has started off great and deserves the manager position, but that doesn't not mean we should change the mold the club was heading with a DOF. Every club essentially has people above the manager deciding the type of players we bring in. That does include people who have the same vision as the manager, which is the whole point. Find someone with experience and a vision similar to the one Ole want's (and the club should want) to instill and they should work together harmoniously.
But we're not other clubs are we? We are different and thats the reason for our success. And DoF isn't a guaranteed success either. There're loads of teams where the DoF doesn't see eye to eye with the manager or the manager doesn't like the players the DoF gets for him.
Also, had we appointed from within, our 2013/14 team sans Fellaini would have been well in for a title challenge. Hell Ole has our team - which had such a shit defense according to most of _our_ fans that we couldn't play an attacking game and were extremely lucky to finish 2nd - in title winning form.
Anyway this whole thread is kinda moot cos I just don't see a DoF appointment happening. The most that I can see happening is a recruitment director who works under Woodward and advises him about transfer targets and might have some say in future managerial appointments but no more than that, however much people here cry about it.
Also, had we appointed from within, our 2013/14 team sans Fellaini would have been well in for a title challenge. Hell Ole has our team - which had such a shit defense according to most of _our_ fans that we couldn't play an attacking game and were extremely lucky to finish 2nd - in title winning form.
Anyway this whole thread is kinda moot cos I just don't see a DoF appointment happening. The most that I can see happening is a recruitment director who works under Woodward and advises him about transfer targets and might have some say in future managerial appointments but no more than that, however much people here cry about it.
Can be limited and useful; Smalling and OGS as you mention. And this depends on what posision you are playing in and what your limitations are. If you play as a winger or as an attacker and you are limited on the ball, then this is a problem. If you play as a CB and you are limited on the ball, then this is not the biggest problem. There is a difference.
The amount invested in the squad since SAF retired would have been sufficent to compete IF:
- The squad was better when SAF retired.
- The investments made would have been better (DoF?)
- The managers appointed was able to improve the players and adapt a playingstyle suited to the team they managed. (DoF?)
Ole seems like he thrives when he's working WITH people, unlike Mourinho. Just look at how he's engaged in discussion with Carrick et al. during the games.
I think if we can get a DoF who is not just a football nerd but also a likable, functional social being who works well in a team and listens to advice I think he'll be a big asset for Ole and the club.
I think if we can get a DoF who is not just a football nerd but also a likable, functional social being who works well in a team and listens to advice I think he'll be a big asset for Ole and the club.
1. The squad was better when SAF retired.
I've addressed this but you clearly disagree so whatever lets just leave it.
2. The investments made would have been better (DoF?)
You can just as easily say its because of a lack of a recruitment strategy in the club outside of the current head coach, because thats what LvG and Jose were - head coaches, not managers. We actually haven't had a manager since Moyes (who was just out of his level) and now Ole.
I do lay the blame on Woodward and the board for willy-nilly hiring big name coaches and giving them the GDP of a small nation to spend. They predictably got irritated at this (esp Mourinho - he's still talking about the "lack of structure"). I agree the club needs a clear recruitment strategy, the only difference is that I don't think that guy should have the final say or be in charge of hiring/firing managers.
3. The managers appointed was able to improve the players and adapt a playing style suited to the team they managed. (DoF?)
This is the best argument for a DoF. And I'm fairly sympathetic to it, but I think we need a different structure. Because that role could very easily be filed by Phelan for instance. I'd definitely trust his judgement more than any of the names that have been mentioned so far, who have little to no connection to Manchester United. They sound like recruitment guys, in which case they should not be outranking the manager IMO.
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1. No agreement there, which is fine.
2. Lack of recruitementstrategy... Doesn't that sound like something a DoF might be involved in?
3. Mike Phelan is a coach, a great one. Just because he is performing as a coach, does not necessarily make him a good DoF...
Bruh, even Arsenal have appointed a DOF, and they are slow in doing everything. What is Ed doing?
Trying to drag it out through having a "thorough process". Meaning that he will delay the sh*t out of it and hoping that the fans/media stop asking for one and then they will not appoint one.
We should already have appointed a DoF, started to work on the summer ins and outs +++
We will most likely not appoint a DoF this season, Woodward/Board/Matt Judge will continue to fumble around, either failing to buy the players we (whomever they may be) want, getting robbed by clubs and agents, and continue to overlook players that offers something to the team despite not costing a fortune.
This. I just don’t know if this is actually going to happen and yet I believe it’s as an important appointment as our next manager.
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