Man City 2020/21 - General discussion

Beachryan said:
I just don't see how you can have it both ways.

If Pep is capable of developing any set of players into this world-conquering, tacitcally astute, well-drilled machine, he wouldn't have to spend so much. City would not have gone out and outspent everyone by an order of magnitude (yes, except United, ignore us for one moment).

Someone arguing that Pep just did it because I mean why not buy another 50m FB kind of proves my point. The flipside has to be true.

To the poster arguing Pep could never do it in the Prem - well I'm still curious if he could do it in the prem without outspendign the bottom 12 clubs combined. If you believe he could have gotten 100 points spending the same as Spurs, Liverpool or Arsenal I think you're utterl ydeluded.
Click to expand...

I don't think he could. But no one can. Klopp didn't. Poch didn't. Wenger didn't. Mourinho didn't.

Conversely, I think that given the same amount of resources available to Moyes, he would do a better job than Moyes, at United or at West Ham. That this basic tenet is actually debatable to some indicates the sheer delusion regarding Pep, amongst football laymen (i.e. posters on the internet). Thankfully, clubs are controlled by people with more sense and objectivity, who don't see a rightful acknowledgement of his skills as some sort of dig at SAF.
 
City is a better team, I have no doubts. The best in the world, only Bayern could rival them. But Chelsea has the potential to be an immensely tough nut to crack against any top team. Not only their defense and collective positioning off-the-ball are amazing, but they are also very physical, can be dirty, disrupting the opponents's rhythm with countless harsh fouls, and have amazing counter-attacks. The perfect set-up against any proactive team like City, no matter how good.

And Guardiola is no exception to struggling against such teams. 2009 is a good template. That Chelsea's playstyle also had those characteristics I described. Barcelona drew 0-0 in the first leg, the only game in that season in which Barcelona failed to score at the Camp Nou. And the second leg was a 1-1 draw. Even if we don't take in consideration the penalties not given to Chelsea, the fact is that Barcelona had over 70% of possession, but couldn't do anything with it and were completely limited to shots of faith from outside the box.

Chelsea, meanwhile, had at least four amazing chances to make the game 2-0 and kill the tie, but wasted them all. All in fast counter-attacks. Iniesta punished Chelsea with a goal in minute 90 of the game, which was the first and only shot on target by Barcelona in the entire match, they previously hadn't hit even the post or the bar, had no real goal chances. Guus Hiddink really deserves a lot more credit.

Barcelona's tough games against Chelsea also led lots of english football fans and press to claim that Barcelona and Messi were tremendously overrated and overhyped. They said that United would easily win the final.

I can see the current Chelsea in the right day pulling off against City something like what Chelsea did against Barcelona back in 2009.


Guardiola's history against Chelsea in the UCL:

Barcelona 0-0 Chelsea, 2009 UCL semifinals.

Chelsea 1-1 Barcelona, 2009 UCL semifinals.

Chelsea 1-0 Barcelona, 2012 UCL semifinals.

Barcelona 2-2 Chelsea, 2012 UCL semifinals.


Guardiola in the post-match interview after the second leg against PSG:

"People think you have to be in the final every year. It's unfair, we won the first game because we shot between the hips of the opponent, Man Utd won one because John Terry slipped, Madrid won against Atleti in the 93rd minute, it's the little details."

I don't think that him using United, Chelsea and Real Madrid as examples was a mere coincidence...
 
  • Like
Reactions: Cheimoon
adexkola said:
I don't think he could. But no one can. Klopp didn't. Poch didn't. Wenger didn't. Mourinho didn't.

Conversely, I think that given the same amount of resources available to Moyes, he would do a better job than Moyes, at United or at West Ham. That this basic tenet is actually debatable to some indicates the sheer delusion regarding Pep, amongst football laymen (i.e. posters on the internet). Thankfully, clubs are controlled by people with more sense and objectivity, who don't see a rightful acknowledgement of his skills as some sort of dig at SAF.
Click to expand...
To be fair, Klopp came very close. 97 points in 2019 and 99 points in 2020. I'm not knocking Guardiola, he is my favorite coach.
 
padr81 said:
The gap in quality is bigger say between City and United or City and PSG than it should be relative to spending because of Cities spending philosophy but more importantly because of Pep. I don't think there are many City fans who'd turn their nose up at Rashford, Pogba, Fernandes, AWB, Maguire, Lindelof or Shaw. Pep would absolutely have the current United squad playing the same style of football his City does but he'd likely have spent some money much wiser.. Not a slight on Ole, he's relatively new to the top level compared to Pep and fixing a messy squad left by Jose but swap managers and we'd be swapping league positions. Same goes for City and Chelsea if City had Lampard start of season and Chelsea had Pep.
Click to expand...
I'm not sure you can call Pep a wise money spender. 400 million on defenders ain't exactly shrewd.
 
Of course Pep is a great manager, but who is better than the other is very difficult to say. It’s very situation dependent.

My point is that I don’t think our results this season would’ve been better with Pep. The same can be said about Leicester and Chelsea after Tuchel. With other words: Ole, Rodgers and Tuchel gets the best out of their squad, in my opinion. They fit their respective clubs perfectly. At the same time I’m not sure if they would’ve been able to do the same in City, Barca and BM.

Pep is likely the best guarantee to get the most out of the team under any circumstances. Ole would likely struggle more in other clubs, but it’s not the same as saying Pep would’ve done better in United
 
Righteous Steps said:
De Bruyne was already world class when he joined City though, he had the highest amount of assists in Bundesliga history with Wolfsburg thats why he cost 50 odd million.
Click to expand...
Going by this logic, do you think Mkhitaryan was a world-class player when he came to United?
 
Olecurls99 said:
I'm not sure you can call Pep a wise money spender. 400 million on defenders ain't exactly shrewd.
Click to expand...

Would you say it's shrewder than
220m on Maguire, lindelof, bailly, awb and shaw? If you pick any combination of 5 defenders pep signed at City they come in at better value as a whole even including Mendy as one of the 5.

My point though which was pretty clear and you ignored was not spending 80+m on a single player has allowed us pretty much an extra player or two on those who do and has reaped it's rewards.

Kdb and gundogan for less than Maguire etc . Kdb and sterling for the same price Barca bought coutinho or atletico bought Felix.

City played gundo, dias and zinchenko vs psg, all 3 combined were cheaper than Maguire alone. Not blowing the budget on shirt sellers has given us a huge squad.
 
Polar said:
Of course Pep is a great manager, but who is better than the other is very difficult to say. It’s very situation dependent.

My point is that I don’t think our results this season would’ve been better with Pep. The same can be said about Leicester and Chelsea after Tuchel. With other words: Ole, Rodgers and Tuchel gets the best out of their squad, in my opinion. They fit their respective clubs perfectly. At the same time I’m not sure if they would’ve been able to do the same in City, Barca and BM.

Pep is likely the best guarantee to get the most out of the team under any circumstances. Ole would likely struggle more in other clubs, but it’s not the same as saying Pep would’ve done better in United
Click to expand...

After tuchel Chelseas results are on a par with cities. Mount, ziyech, jorginho, kovacic. Only Kante would struggle with peps system in mf. The wingers would thrive and Werner would excel in the press but maybe struggle when holding the ball. James is easily as good technically as walker.

United too have tons of players who would excel under pep.

There is zero reason to think pep would struggle with either team.
 
padr81 said:
After tuchel Chelseas results are on a par with cities. Mount, ziyech, jorginho, kovacic. Only Kante would struggle with peps system in mf. The wingers would thrive and Werner would excel in the press but maybe struggle when holding the ball. James is easily as good technically as walker.

United too have tons of players who would excel under pep.

There is zero reason to think pep would struggle with either team.
Click to expand...
Yes. Thats almost exactly what I’m saying. Ole, Tuchel and Rodgers would probably struggle to repeat Pep and Pep will be able to repeat them.

At the same time I don’t think Pep would’ve been able to excel Ole, Tuchel and Rodgers result wise this season under the same conditions.

Sounds contradicting, but my point is that sometimes other managers are able to fulfil the potential of the squad; it isn’t upside left for Pep.

Pep has proved he can take over a very good team and repeat the success. With City he took
over a squad with potential to win PL and today the squad is treble potential. It took him four years.

Ole was far from taking over a squad with potential to win PL. Next year United may be in that position if they conduct the right transfers in the summer window. If Ole is able to build a squad with treble potential within four years from now, he has followed Pep’s timeframe.

I would feel a little bit more safe if Pep was responsible for building United’s squad, because he is proven. At the same time it will be more satisfying for United if Ole makes it ; a United achievement and not a Pep achievement.

We shouldn’t underestimate the meaning of “the United way”. We are United and not a manager.
 
padr81 said:
Not blowing the budget on shirt sellers has given us a huge squad.
Click to expand...

What budget? City don't have a budget. That's why they can spend 400 million on defenders. "That 60 million player didn't work. Buy another one." Again that's hardly shrewd. Pep is a very good manager but let's not add shrewdness to his bow when it is really not applicable.

We don't have that luxury.

Yes, yes I get it. We spent 80 million on a 60 million pounds defender. It's called the United tax. We needed him so we bit the bullet. He's been very good.
 
Olecurls99 said:
What budget? City don't have a budget. That's why they can spend 400 million on defenders. "That 60 million player didn't work. Buy another one." Again that's hardly shrewd. Pep is a very good manager but let's not add shrewdness to his bow when it is really not applicable.

We don't have that luxury.

Yes, yes I get it. We spent 80 million on a 60 million pounds defender. It's called the United tax. We needed him so we bit the bullet. He's been very good.
Click to expand...
You think clubs don't also try to fleece City when they come in for a player?
The difference is that City normally make their move earlier in the window so can "sit it out" if the seller ask for silly money.
Having a short list of good alternatives also helps us get value for money.
We have sometimes cocked up and paid a big price for a poor player (Mangala and Bony prime examples) when we've rushed things.
 
Gentleman Jim said:
You think clubs don't also try to fleece City when they come in for a player?
The difference is that City normally make their move earlier in the window so can "sit it out" if the seller ask for silly money.
Having a short list of good alternatives also helps us get value for money.
We have sometimes cocked up and paid a big price for a poor player (Mangala and Bony prime examples) when we've rushed things.
Click to expand...
Fair enough. You won't get any arguments from me that our board have been clueless in the windows.
 
padr81 said:
Would you say it's shrewder than
220m on Maguire, lindelof, bailly, awb and shaw? If you pick any combination of 5 defenders pep signed at City they come in at better value as a whole even including Mendy as one of the 5.

My point though which was pretty clear and you ignored was not spending 80+m on a single player has allowed us pretty much an extra player or two on those who do and has reaped it's rewards.

Kdb and gundogan for less than Maguire etc . Kdb and sterling for the same price Barca bought coutinho or atletico bought Felix.

City played gundo, dias and zinchenko vs psg, all 3 combined were cheaper than Maguire alone. Not blowing the budget on shirt sellers has given us a huge squad.
Click to expand...
This is a daft post. You're listing successes and comparing them to failures/different situations. If Pep had paid 30m for Lindelof, he would have since spent 40m on someone else. United have to play him. Also, Ole inherited Lindelof, like Pep inherited Mangala.

The fact that Barca are now bankrupt because of their stupidity kind of makes that a low bar to stumble over.

Listen, City have done two things since (and before) Pep took over: buy well and buy a lot. That's admirable. But City are also only winning in the dominant manner that they are because of the latter. If you look around Europe, and the Premier league, due to the exhausting nature of this season, how many teams are being forced to play their youth players? Almost all of them. Spurs, Pool, United, Bayern, Dortmund, even Barca and Real are having to give lots of minutes to unproven kids, because of injuries and tiredness. City's squad don't have to.
 
If you want to laugh, read the first 10 pages this season declaring Pep was past it, and that this City squad is garbage. Then read the last 10 pages of this thread.
 
adexkola said:
If you want to laugh, read the first 10 pages this season declaring Pep was past it, and that this City squad is garbage. Then read the last 10 pages of this thread.
Click to expand...
What a difference a 60 million defender and you're main opponent having an injury crisis make. They didn't look too clever in December. Still, having 2x50 million everywhere helps.
 
Olecurls99 said:
What a difference a 60 million defender and you're main opponent having an injury crisis make. They didn't look too clever in December. Still, having 2x50 million everywhere helps.
Click to expand...
Funny enough, no single person (not even Benfica fans) was calling Dias world-class before this season and a lot were talking about how it was a panic buy that may come good in the future. Fast forward to now, all of a sudden Dias was always world-class.
I also don't understand why some of you keep using a players price as an indication of him being world-class, that's just market price and we know teams like to fix higher prices when selling to rich clubs.

Oh and their winning streak started after the game against Tottenham, and that was in November.
 
Olecurls99 said:
What a difference a 60 million defender and you're main opponent having an injury crisis make. They didn't look too clever in December. Still, having 2x50 million everywhere helps.
Click to expand...

We United, didn't have any injury crisis.

City's form was poorer earlier in the season and it got really good, that's it. Liverpool is irrelevant. it's their fault they depend on crocks and their front players also dipped in form. So no injury excuses accepted here. They wouldn't be competing at the very top this season regardless.
 
footballistic orgasm said:
Funny enough, no single person (not even Benfica fans) was calling Dias world-class before this season and a lot were talking about how it was a panic buy that may come good in the future. Fast forward to now, all of a sudden Dias was always world-class.
I also don't understand why some of you keep using a players price as an indication of him being world-class, that's just market price and we know teams like to fix higher prices when selling to rich clubs.

Oh and their winning streak started after the game against Tottenham, and that was in November.
Click to expand...

No, winning streak started in December after 1-1 at home with WBA prior to that we drew 0-0 with United and were sitting (I think) 9th in the league
 
Thunderhead said:
No, winning streak started in December after 1-1 at home with WBA prior to that we drew 0-0 with United and were sitting (I think) 9th in the league
Click to expand...
Yeah maybe not the winning streak, but if i recall, that defeat against Tottenham was the last defeat (before the recent one against Leeds)...
 
Pow said:
Didn't you beat them
Click to expand...
I'm not a United fan (or that of any club specifically by the way) but yeah you're right, i actually forget how they got beat deservedly by United (unlike their defeat against Leeds) which actually ended their winning streak.
 
Polar said:
Yes. Thats almost exactly what I’m saying. Ole, Tuchel and Rodgers would probably struggle to repeat Pep and Pep will be able to repeat them.

At the same time I don’t think Pep would’ve been able to excel Ole, Tuchel and Rodgers result wise this season under the same conditions.

Sounds contradicting, but my point is that sometimes other managers are able to fulfil the potential of the squad; it isn’t upside left for Pep.

Pep has proved he can take over a very good team and repeat the success. With City he took
over a squad with potential to win PL and today the squad is treble potential. It took him four years.

Ole was far from taking over a squad with potential to win PL. Next year United may be in that position if they conduct the right transfers in the summer window. If Ole is able to build a squad with treble potential within four years from now, he has followed Pep’s timeframe.

I would feel a little bit more safe if Pep was responsible for building United’s squad, because he is proven. At the same time it will be more satisfying for United if Ole makes it ; a United achievement and not a Pep achievement.

We shouldn’t underestimate the meaning of “the United way”. We are United and not a manager.
Click to expand...

I think people tend to overrate or underrate Pep its very rare you get a balanced view. Pep is a top manager, one of a few top managers.

He's not a God nor a fraud but he has a way that in particular over a league campaign see's his team rarely drop points to weak teams, basically where Pep really excels is in winning the games he should win. that sounds like something anyone could or should be able to do but its not. Thats the real strength of Pep. That is where he's the best manager in the world. You look at a Pep team and you think he'll likely with 30 or so of 38 games per season thats his strength but also his weakness, in that his record vs other top teams can be either really ropey or very good depending on season.
 
Olecurls99 said:
What budget? City don't have a budget. That's why they can spend 400 million on defenders. "That 60 million player didn't work. Buy another one." Again that's hardly shrewd. Pep is a very good manager but let's not add shrewdness to his bow when it is really not applicable.

We don't have that luxury.

Yes, yes I get it. We spent 80 million on a 60 million pounds defender. It's called the United tax. We needed him so we bit the bullet. He's been very good.
Click to expand...

Nonsense theres a clear budget season on season. Sometimes its stupid high. No matter how you twist it there is about £150m or there abouts between the squads but the quality difference is more. Theres a tax for every rich clubs going for a player, do you think Mendy would have cost Liverpool £50m or Mahrez cost Arsenal £60m.
 
Pretty telling that they've changed their entire line up today barring keeper and dias and still have a team worth more than half a billion and stronger than most teams in league. Its been invaluable this season with so many teams struggling with fatigue. Impossible for 99% of teams to compete
 
padr81 said:
Nonsense theres a clear budget season on season. Sometimes its stupid high. No matter how you twist it there is about £150m or there abouts between the squads but the quality difference is more. Theres a tax for every rich clubs going for a player, do you think Mendy would have cost Liverpool £50m or Mahrez cost Arsenal £60m.
Click to expand...

Pepe cost Arsenal £75m
 
Eyes off the prize now. It isn't inconceivable that they'll lose their next three league games so in the likely event we win every remaining game 5-0 we'll usurped them as champions and have a very happy new year indeed.
 
Their B-Team with world-class players such as Torres, Jesus, Mendy and Aké let them down today. :wenger:
 
footballistic orgasm said:
Going by this logic, do you think Mkhitaryan was a world-class player when he came to United?
Click to expand...
Why would he? Mkhitaryan didn’t have the highest number of assists in bundesliga history. Muller did beat De Bruyne’s record though and he’s a world class player so maybe it’s not a bad stat to prove someone’s quality after all.....
footballistic orgasm said:
Funny enough, no single person (not even Benfica fans) was calling Dias world-class before this season and a lot were talking about how it was a panic buy that may come good in the future. Fast forward to now, all of a sudden Dias was always world-class.
I also don't understand why some of you keep using a players price as an indication of him being world-class, that's just market price and we know teams like to fix higher prices when selling to rich clubs.

Oh and their winning streak started after the game against Tottenham, and that was in November.
Click to expand...
You can’t use a price tag to indicate ability but to be fair it’s not a bad indicator. You don’t pay that kind of money unless you think the player is capable, I’d also argue it’s near on impossible to be labelled world class playing in Portugal doesn’t mean you can’t be. No one could’ve said for certain Bruno was world class when at Sporting doesn’t mean he wasn’t
 
padr81 said:
I think people tend to overrate or underrate Pep its very rare you get a balanced view. Pep is a top manager, one of a few top managers.

He's not a God nor a fraud but he has a way that in particular over a league campaign see's his team rarely drop points to weak teams, basically where Pep really excels is in winning the games he should win. that sounds like something anyone could or should be able to do but its not. Thats the real strength of Pep. That is where he's the best manager in the world. You look at a Pep team and you think he'll likely with 30 or so of 38 games per season thats his strength but also his weakness, in that his record vs other top teams can be either really ropey or very good depending on season.
Click to expand...
He's done as good as Vilanova and Enrique at Barca. They had a slightly better record with basically the same players.
At Bayern, he's done better than Kovac but not as good as Heynckes or the lad who won the league and Champions league last year. Flich I think.
He's doing better than Pellegrini and Mancini at City. 3 in 5 and maybe a Champions league.

He's a very good coach but he's best at picking jobs. What's wrong with saying that?
 
Olecurls99 said:
He's done as good as Vilanova and Enrique at Barca. They had a slightly better record with basically the same players.
At Bayern, he's done better than Kovac but not as good as Heynckes or the lad who won the league and Champions league last year. Flich I think.
He's doing better than Pellegrini and Mancini at City. 3 in 5 and maybe a Champions league.

He's a very good coach but he's best at picking jobs. What's wrong with saying that?
Click to expand...
You're as good at cherry picking your factoids as Pep is at picking his jobs.
Well done.
 
So, in recent weeks Chelsea have beaten City twice but you just know when it comes to the biggest game of the 3 (UCL Final) they will almost certainly blow it, who agrees?
 
Gentleman Jim said:
You're as good at cherry picking your factoids as Pep is at picking his jobs.
Well done.
Click to expand...
I've literally covered his career to date and compared it with coaches that preceded and followed him at his respective clubs. It's quite comprehensive actually. Again, a very good coach but let's not go nuts.
 
Olecurls99 said:
I've literally covered his career to date and compared it with coaches that preceded and followed him at his respective clubs. It's quite comprehensive actually. Again, a very good coach but let's not go nuts.
Click to expand...
Comparing him to coaches following him has to take into consideration that those may profit from the foundation he build. For example Guardiola changed Bayerns success in the Bundesliga from (more or less) winning every second year to winning every year and everyone who followed him did profit from that level of dominance. So it is a bit of cherry picking you do, but you are not totally wrong, just missing a bit of the bigger picture.
 
Olecurls99 said:
I've literally covered his career to date and compared it with coaches that preceded and followed him at his respective clubs. It's quite comprehensive actually. Again, a very good coach but let's not go nuts.
Click to expand...

Olecurls99 said:
He's done as good as Vilanova and Enrique at Barca. They had a slightly better record with basically the same players.
At Bayern, he's done better than Kovac but not as good as Heynckes or the lad who won the league and Champions league last year. Flich I think.
He's doing better than Pellegrini and Mancini at City. 3 in 5 and maybe a Champions league.

He's a very good coach but he's best at picking jobs. What's wrong with saying that?
Click to expand...

We've got a true expert here indeed.
 
stefan92 said:
Comparing him to coaches following him has to take into consideration that those may profit from the foundation he build. For example Guardiola changed Bayerns success in the Bundesliga from (more or less) winning every second year to winning every year and everyone who followed him did profit from that level of dominance. So it is a bit of cherry picking you do, but you are not totally wrong, just missing a bit of the bigger picture.
Click to expand...
I don't know if you can credit Pep for that. That team had just won the treble when he took over.
We've got a true expert here indeed.
Click to expand...
Oh I'm not an expert at all. Just someone with a decent understanding of the game.
 
Last edited:
Olecurls99 said:
I don't know if you can credit Pep for that. That team had just won the treble when he took over.
Click to expand...
Typical Bayern cycle has been to win stuff, and then fail to replicate that success next season. Back-to-back wins of the league were rare for them. So the consistency Bayern are showing is something Guardiola started and did not exist before. But you correctly stated that winning (important) titles is something other Bayern coaches even excelled more than him as he failed to win the CL.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.