Honestly I'm not sure what's up, but it is very weird the amount of time you spend championing City and Guardiola. You back them more than actual City fans on this forum.
Man City 2020/21 - General discussion
- Thread starter Suedesi
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Honestly I'm not sure what's up, but it is very weird the amount of time you spend championing City and Guardiola. You back them more than actual City fans on this forum.
I had the day off. I'm bored, and I'm a pedant, and I like being wowed with great arguments that make me shut up. Haven't seen any in this thread (including my own) but it did make the time pass!
Hope to see you at OT one day
Exactly.
The way some people go about their squad, you'd think it was littered with world class players like Real Madrid from 2016-2018.
I suspect it's a defense mechanism to avoid praising Pep for whatever reason.
5-6 world class players or the best players in the PL at the time? Come on
Only person I'll give you for that is Aguero, but no one else in that team qualifies.
Their squad was nothing special at all. I mean we had a shocker of a season under Van Gaal and they only pipped us on GD.
There were plenty of doubts about De Bruyne, Silva, Sterling, etc before Pep arrived.
Sir Alex would have even more leagues if he kept running off to the dominant team in different leagues once the cycle is over. And Bundesliga barely counts. I reckon top managers could win 15 on the bounce there is they stayed. The difference is that Sir Alex built Manchester United, achieved miracles with the underdog in Scotland, and when our cycles ended he again rebuilt us although he could have easily left at the first sign of trouble (of Jose does or Pep has before).
And the keeper.
While people do overrate city's WC first 11 a tad their actual squad is a bit silly good. The likes of Bernardo, Laporte and Sterling often making the bench, it's the stuff only state money can afford. And you're not counting Sterling and Laporte because they haven't played much. Next year they could start and it'll be their turn to be considered world class by all and sundry. City can afford players losing form only to be replaced by other players who can perform at a supremely high level. It's a unique situation and combined with the current best coach in the world is deadly for others.
5-6 world class players or the best players in the PL at the time? Come on
Only person I'll give you for that is Aguero, but no one else in that team qualifies.
Their squad was nothing special at all. I mean we had a shocker of a season under Van Gaal and they only pipped us on GD.
There were plenty of doubts about De Bruyne, Silva, Sterling, etc before Pep arrived.
So you say that Pep developed De Bruyne, Fernandinho, Aguero, Kompany, Toure? They were definitely world class players all off them.
Navas, Silva and Sterling wasn’t to bad either.
What Guardiola needs in his team is teams is players with technique. He'd have Arsenal battling top 4. Liverpool, us and Chelsea in top 2 at least. Tottenham in top 3
Your logic seems slightly twisted, he’ll only work with the very best young players but happily pay 30 mil plus for average squad players, it’s just unrealistic for any coach to have that privilege and I don’t think it’s crazy to expect more from someone rated so highly. I can see we’ll never agree on this as to think De Bruyne is the only world class player at City is ridiculous to me, 90% of their squad would be welcome at any club in the world.
I think all apart from Zinchenko and Rodri were considered the best or at least one of the best in their respective teams before moving to City, and would you say Rodri is so much better now than the he was at Athletico? Mahrez was Leicesters most important player during their title win, Walker was in the PFA team of the year before moving to City, Stones reportedly turned down Barca to move to City and was labelled the next Rio, Sterling had an England team built round him at Euro 2016, Gundogan was integral to Klopps Dortmund team and Dias has been brilliant all season so do you think it’s more likely that maybe it’s because he was already or because Pep is so good working with him for a couple of days hugely improved him? I can accept he’s made improvements to their games but you make it sound like he turns water into wine.
I just find it so strange Pep’s fans feel the need to exaggerate his achievements so much, the guys a great coach no one can dispute that and has achieved great things again indisputable but not being able to see he has had the dream scenario for any manager at City and other managers achieving similar success on tighter constraints might be more impressive just baffles me and is almost cultish.
The arguments saying he took over a poor City side again is crazy talk, they’d finished 2nd, 1st and 4th the previous seasons with the asterisk of the 4th place being they announced Pep was taking over mid season and completely undermined Pellegrini. If memory serves me right they could barely win a game for a month or 2 after the announcement. It wouldn’t be far off someone taking over Liverpool next season, spending a billion, bringing in directors and back room staff specifically for him and winning 3 leagues out of 5 with one CL final (he’s not won it yet) and being labelled a genius.
On the flip side the people labelling him a cheque book manager are just as crazy, he’s clearly one of the top coaches of all time his Barca team were unreal and his way of winning despite any advantages he’s had is second to none.
Apologies for the rant, I only get 3 messages a day and had to hold onto that one for 12 hours whilst reading messages arguing back and forth ha
Story with Pep in City is becoming like Glazers story in United. You can explain it dozen times but still people will say "But they are not bad. They were buying players for us"
Pep inherited team with Aguero, Silva, Kompany, Otamendi, Kdb, Sterling, Toure and Fernandinho. That is 8 players in first 11. All those players (except maybe Otamendi who was good defender back then) were among best on their positions in PL and all of them were available for long term because they were in best football age.
Then with that team plus signings he finishes 3rd and without trophies. And then insane spending begins.....
I repeat. Give him unlimited funds and he will build perfect squad and perfect style. Because he IS excellent and talented manager with vision and talent for job. No other manager would do better with unlimited funds, no question about it.
But give him "normal" conditions like all other managers have, he will fail. Because he needs perfect player or even two (for his style) on every position. And lets not forget that he was knocked out from CL by weaker teams all those years. Lyon, Monaco, Spurs and Liverpool.
I never understood how most of Arsenal fans were so positive after the 2-1 defeat to Villarreal. I went on Arsenalmania after the first leg to read some meltdown posts and be entertained but instead found mostly positive posts about how Arsenal will go through because they nicked a goal. Given Arsenal's nature I was anything but sure that they will crash out. The delusion is really strong in those fans. They still believe they have a top-top team and something is just holding the squad back.
Edit: wrong thread.
Edit: wrong thread.
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I'm as anti-city as they come - but you guys who are saying Pep is overrated are kidding yourselves. The guy is next level tactically compared with most coaches out there. The thing is, his style of play is very technical and requires the players to move in certain patterns to create overloads and they all need to be tactically very switched on. I think that may be the reason why he needs so much money to be successful, because he needs certain types of players. If he spends 60mil on a fullback, and it turns out that guy struggles to follow his instructions he has the power to simply discard him and buy one that can.
That's one of the differences between Pep and other managers, and why it irks a lot of people. Because he doesn't have to fit in less than ideal players into his system, he picks clubs where he has that power and spending. He doesn't want his system "devolved" or lessened by having to play the likes of Phil jones, for example. And i guess we'll never know if he can create a great side with some technically less able players, and that's one of the reasons his opposition criticize him.
They see other managers having to deal with the challenge of having a limited squad and how to manage that - where pep never has, or will have those issues. So for some people there is a question mark over how complete of a manager he is. However, there should be no question that tactically he is absolutely fantastic. The way he changed that city side this season when they lost KDB, Aguero etc. And had Gundogan playing as a false 9 wtih Cancelo as a inverted full back, coming into Centre mid won him the league. I don't buy that he's overrated at all.
That's one of the differences between Pep and other managers, and why it irks a lot of people. Because he doesn't have to fit in less than ideal players into his system, he picks clubs where he has that power and spending. He doesn't want his system "devolved" or lessened by having to play the likes of Phil jones, for example. And i guess we'll never know if he can create a great side with some technically less able players, and that's one of the reasons his opposition criticize him.
They see other managers having to deal with the challenge of having a limited squad and how to manage that - where pep never has, or will have those issues. So for some people there is a question mark over how complete of a manager he is. However, there should be no question that tactically he is absolutely fantastic. The way he changed that city side this season when they lost KDB, Aguero etc. And had Gundogan playing as a false 9 wtih Cancelo as a inverted full back, coming into Centre mid won him the league. I don't buy that he's overrated at all.
Spot on!
No doubt Pep is a great manager when all the puzzle pieces are available, example tactical skills. He is also a great squad builder when he has a lot of freedom on the transfer market. Pep has proved everything in this regard.
On the other side Pep has proved nothing under different circumstances then I mention above. I assume he will do a great job in Leicester, Arsenal and Tottenham as well, but I will be surprised if he is (a miracle man) turning them to treble winners under the same condition as Arteta, Rodgers and Tuchel.
Pep is smart enough to not commit himself to high risk projects and first off all go for teams were the upside is obvious.
I’m not saying he isn’t better than Ole, but I find it hard to believe that we would have done much better result wise with Pep. We would probably have played different under Pep, which some people find more entertaining, but what’s entertaining or not likely differs among supporters.
Yeah they've spent a 2 billion quid on journeymen. Keep telling yourself that
ALOT of revision on here. Fernandinho and Kompany were not world class. Latter is extremely overrated on redcafe.
Kompany also only started 30 league games in three seasons under Guardiola, he was constantly injured.
Hilarious the myths, history and goal changes from Pep haters. Years ago all you read was La Liga is shit, EPL would never have 100 points, Pep wouldn't dominate here.
Yet he got 100 points in his second season with the likes of Delph, Jesus, Walker, Stones, Otamendi and Zinchenko.
But but but the money. Fun fact of the day in two seasons Guardiola took City from 4th on 66 points to first with 100 points. United spent around £30-50m net less but yeah Pep wouldn't have massively improved United, Citys spending got 100 points!
As pointed out by great posts from @Ladron de redcafe and @gibers Guardiola was to get found out in England, United were favourites by the media and on here prior to the 2009 final. Guardiola was a fraud back in the 16/17 season. He was certain to fail and be sacked or leave back in October 2020 in the PG sack thread sitting 14th...But all of those opinions are now ignored and a different scenario applied, like what pathological liars do. Rewrite truths and spout non stop garbage.
Kompany also only started 30 league games in three seasons under Guardiola, he was constantly injured.
Hilarious the myths, history and goal changes from Pep haters. Years ago all you read was La Liga is shit, EPL would never have 100 points, Pep wouldn't dominate here.
Yet he got 100 points in his second season with the likes of Delph, Jesus, Walker, Stones, Otamendi and Zinchenko.
But but but the money. Fun fact of the day in two seasons Guardiola took City from 4th on 66 points to first with 100 points. United spent around £30-50m net less but yeah Pep wouldn't have massively improved United, Citys spending got 100 points!
As pointed out by great posts from @Ladron de redcafe and @gibers Guardiola was to get found out in England, United were favourites by the media and on here prior to the 2009 final. Guardiola was a fraud back in the 16/17 season. He was certain to fail and be sacked or leave back in October 2020 in the PG sack thread sitting 14th...But all of those opinions are now ignored and a different scenario applied, like what pathological liars do. Rewrite truths and spout non stop garbage.
They had lots of good players. League winners of 2014 in fact. He then spent a billion.
We're not moving anything. We're not lying. We're just not hugely impressed.
Yaya Toure was completely finished back then. Kompany was world class, but no longer was when Pep arrived.
De Bruyne didn't have a great 1st season at City.
Aguero is the only player in that starting XI that didn't have question marks going forward.
Never said that, but their team isn't littered with world class players.
Yep, it's a bit scary tbh. I write it down to the tribalism running rampage over here quite a bit.
One can't deny that Pep coached only the elite of top teams so far with abundance of talent on the pitch and bench - he did and does that because he is the top of elite coaches.
But to take and twist that to pretend it would be a fact that he couldn't drastically improve lesser squads is hilarious. Pep-Bayern didn't play like Pep-Barca didn't play like Pep-City. He does adapt his style. Why? Because he is a supreme tactician and strategist. And one gotta be silly expecting something like him winning a treble with the likes of Leicester and whatnot as proof of him being a genius.
It may be because I'm not local, but I'm so indifferent towards City and their success. When they win something, it just feels like we've all skipped that tournament for the year. They're just such a manufactured non-club. This is with the exception of the league in 2012, maybe a part of it is that I'm de-sensitized to their success after that.
I always root for City against Liverpool. They're the asterisk club. They're success means very little.
Liverpool on the other hand are the real deal and their success cuts me deep.
Didn't he also have a great success with Barca B side, getting them immediately promoted? As far I recall, Barca at the time planned to get the big name manager, and many names were on the table, but they were so impressed by Guardiola that they decided to take a chance.
Completely agree, and asterisk club is a good way of putting it.
They were going to hire Jose, but consulted with Cruyff and he heavily endorsed Guardiola.
Ironically, I think Jose has never truly recovered from this either. He doubled down on his anti-Cruyff ways even more-so after this.
It's the one thing that the snipers can keep throwing out in safe knowledge that they're highly unlikely to ever be proven wrong.
He's earned the right to Coach top players as they want to work with him and every other top team around the world would love to have him in charge.
Yes he did.
In his one season at Barca B he stylishly won the League that they played in.
When Rijkaard was removed as First Team Coach Guardiola was encouraged to join Mourinho, Valverde and others on the list of replacements.
? He had his joint best goal scoring season at City in his first year.
So?
He was miles better in 2017-2018 and 2019-2020 than he was in 2015-2016.
We have different viewpoints on what makes a season great if you think De Bruyne had a great debut season at City.
That's irrelevant. He scored 16 goals from midfield.
Just cause he had better seasons doesn't mean his first season wasn't good.
He had 30 goals/assists in 45 appearances and was named City POTY. Also had a knee injury at the end of that season which impacted it. If anything it was Silva who had the weak season out of the main players. Toure was inconsistent. Only Aguero and KDB had very good seasons that year IMO.
Ah no he was rubbish. Pep was working with lower level prem players. Didn't you know?
I don't really understand this thread? I am a fan of Pep the manager, but still want City to lose. I think he would get the best out of any squad. That is not to say the best would mean they are great, but he is a top manager in the world. I really admire how polished his squads play.
So?
There's no reason to believe Pep couldn't do that. He's famous for his ability to improve players and take them to the next level. At City alone you could inarguably say that about almost every first-team player he's coached, with the most obvious examples being De Bruyne, Sterling, Fernandinho, Stones, Walker etc but that's only naming a handful. Look at Zinchenko, who was a young, short, skinny midfielder and is now one of the best left-backs around.
Pep does usually buy better players when the current ones aren't working out. But here's the thing. Every manager ever would do the same if they could. Because they're all there to make the team the best they possibly can.
But just because Pep does that, doesn't mean he couldn't get by if he hadn't. Even if you only take the first players he bought for every position, (excluding Bravo and Nolito who would've been moved on by now anyway) he'd have an XI of Ederson, Walker, Stones, Laporte, Mendy, Rodri, Bernardo, Gundogan, Mahrez, Sané (who'd probably still be here in this hypothetical scenario) and Jesus. That's still a really good XI and every one of them is a much better player after their time with Pep.
Yes we added Dias, Cancelo and more to that, but if we hadn't had the finances to do so we'd still have a great team full of players he has improved.
Who?
The gap in quality is bigger say between City and United or City and PSG than it should be relative to spending because of Cities spending philosophy but more importantly because of Pep. I don't think there are many City fans who'd turn their nose up at Rashford, Pogba, Fernandes, AWB, Maguire, Lindelof or Shaw. Pep would absolutely have the current United squad playing the same style of football his City does but he'd likely have spent some money much wiser.. Not a slight on Ole, he's relatively new to the top level compared to Pep and fixing a messy squad left by Jose but swap managers and we'd be swapping league positions. Same goes for City and Chelsea if City had Lampard start of season and Chelsea had Pep.
De Bruyne was already world class when he joined City though, he had the highest amount of assists in Bundesliga history with Wolfsburg thats why he cost 50 odd million.
I just don't see how you can have it both ways.
If Pep is capable of developing any set of players into this world-conquering, tacitcally astute, well-drilled machine, he wouldn't have to spend so much. City would not have gone out and outspent everyone by an order of magnitude (yes, except United, ignore us for one moment).
Someone arguing that Pep just did it because I mean why not buy another 50m FB kind of proves my point. The flipside has to be true.
To the poster arguing Pep could never do it in the Prem - well I'm still curious if he could do it in the prem without outspendign the bottom 12 clubs combined. If you believe he could have gotten 100 points spending the same as Spurs, Liverpool or Arsenal I think you're utterl ydeluded.
If Pep is capable of developing any set of players into this world-conquering, tacitcally astute, well-drilled machine, he wouldn't have to spend so much. City would not have gone out and outspent everyone by an order of magnitude (yes, except United, ignore us for one moment).
Someone arguing that Pep just did it because I mean why not buy another 50m FB kind of proves my point. The flipside has to be true.
To the poster arguing Pep could never do it in the Prem - well I'm still curious if he could do it in the prem without outspendign the bottom 12 clubs combined. If you believe he could have gotten 100 points spending the same as Spurs, Liverpool or Arsenal I think you're utterl ydeluded.
Your fellow City fan numbered all of them few pages back.
He was very good in his first season, not possible to think otherwise. He slowly evolved in to a different type of player later under Pep but along with Aguero he was one of our best players that season, and came up big in both legs of the CL quarter-final against PSG.
Aguero was in the form of his life, but not a Pep type of player at all. That development took a season allthough he was still pretty effective.
David Silva who were already a City great at that point were coming back off his worst season for us, went on to become arguably an even better player than he was before after Pep gave him a role in a midfield 3 rather than the free-roaming, wide playmaker-role he had played for most of his career.
Yaya, a huge player for us but by 2016 he was only really good in moments and made us a very inbalanced side in midfield.
Fernandinho was a solid all-round midfielder for us, but by the time Pep arrived he struggled more and more to do the increasing defensive work Yaya and Pelles front 4 left him with. He was also already then over 30.
Kompany by 2016 couldn't be relied on to get on the pitch often enough. Didn't really get back to his best under Pep either before the swansong in 2019.
Otamendi had a terrible first season, his improvement might be the most impressive one.
Sterling had just left Liverpool as a very raw, direct pacy winger that didn't fit Pellegrini at all. Not a good first season but the worrying thing is that he just got more and more ineffectual as the season went on. Maximised his abillity in the following years
Pep definitely had a lot of tools when he took over already in place, but if you go back to 2016 it didn't look as rosy as in hindsight. Most people probably expected a much bigger rebuild because our team were both aging and stagnating rapidly.
Im not saying he didn't take over a good team, nor that he has spent loads. Just seen this discussed lately and wanted to give my 2 cents
This is a lie. Guardiola was definitely not trashed in 2016. Alongside Barcelona, Bayern was playing the best football in Europe and were at peak chemistry. Bayern was eliminated by Atlético on away goals. Bayern won the second leg by a 2-1 score, but had a fantastic performance and missed too many chances. Simeone declared that game as the best football that anyone has ever played against Atlético, a lesson in how to dismantle even the most spectacular defense. Simeone admitted that Atlético was quite lucky and said that Bayern was truly incredible in that game.