UEFA is doing it not to look bad. Just like with the Eduardo dive last season. They have no evidence to convict however. If they do convict then certainly a rule change will follow.
Madrid's deliberate red cards
- Thread starter Carl
- Start date
Just as well it's not being heard in a court, nor does anyone have to prove anything to find them guilty.
Let's hope both those events come to pass.
Not really sure why so many of you think they shouldnt be punished further for this. As pogue had pointed out, the current punishment is what they wanted to happen so therefore it's not a punishment and, as a result, the suspension should be increased to 2 games.
It's common sense!
It's a bollox argument to compare it to diving (although petes viera defence made me laugh) or other unsporting acts as they arent instances where the guilty party has intentionally taken disciplinary punishment by bending the rules so as to benefit themselves. It's not like you get booked for scoring with your hand but the goal counts. Neither is it like henry's handball which, whilst unsporting, does not manipulate the system in the way that madrid have done.
It's like a child writing 'feck off' down when their parents tell them not to speak to them in a disobedient manner and expecting to get away with it.
If uefa dont increase the suspension then in future, on matchday 5 in CL (for example) any player on a booking whose team has already qualified will, at 90 mins, walk up to the ref and call him a cnuting paedo who rapes kittens or pull his pants down and take a dump just so they can be sent off.
Black and white issue for me, suspension should be 2 games and madrid warned if they do it again, or any other team does, that player, if proven to have deliberately gotten sent off shall have the option to a) miss the rest of the CL season or b) be castrated. That's how i'd run football anyway.
It's common sense!
It's a bollox argument to compare it to diving (although petes viera defence made me laugh) or other unsporting acts as they arent instances where the guilty party has intentionally taken disciplinary punishment by bending the rules so as to benefit themselves. It's not like you get booked for scoring with your hand but the goal counts. Neither is it like henry's handball which, whilst unsporting, does not manipulate the system in the way that madrid have done.
It's like a child writing 'feck off' down when their parents tell them not to speak to them in a disobedient manner and expecting to get away with it.
If uefa dont increase the suspension then in future, on matchday 5 in CL (for example) any player on a booking whose team has already qualified will, at 90 mins, walk up to the ref and call him a cnuting paedo who rapes kittens or pull his pants down and take a dump just so they can be sent off.
Black and white issue for me, suspension should be 2 games and madrid warned if they do it again, or any other team does, that player, if proven to have deliberately gotten sent off shall have the option to a) miss the rest of the CL season or b) be castrated. That's how i'd run football anyway.
Interesting development. I wonder if R_Nick still thinks this has 'nothing to do with Mourinho'...
I see. I didn't know that.
What the feck are you on about?Exhibit A on show here. Need I say more?
I'm happy they are being punished, Madrid are a team of wankers run by one, I just don't it's deserved! Not going to argue though.
Exactly. UEFA will be made mugs of in this case.
"Well your honor, from the pictures , it is clear that Mourinho was communicating with his assistants, who conveyed a message to Alonso and Ramos, each of whom got sent off shortly after. Therefore, Mourinho must have told them to collect a deliberate yellow card in order to clear their records in time for the knockout stage"
"Objection M'lud"
"Go ahead"
"I'd like to know if the prosecution has any evidence that Mourinho actually told his players to collect deliberate yellow cards"
"Prosecutor, do you have any evidence?"
"Well it is obvious that"
"M'lud, also, I'd like the prosecution to define a deliberate yellow card"
"Erm... it is obvious that their conduct was unsporting and against the spirit of the game"
"I have no further questions M'lud"
"Well I find Real not guilty of said offenses, case dismissed"
I did my best, fecking eejits
It would , if the actual rule was common sense. What their actions have actually done is expose the nonsensical nature of the current rules in this area.
Whilst i dont agree with the yellow card procedure that's in place, i wouldnt say they are nonsensical unless some cheeky sods try and take advantage of it by being smart arses. Aforementioned smart arses should thus be dealt with accordingly, ie be given a punishment they don't, rather than do, want. At the same time, this would deter others from being naughty too.
This
How does an umpire prove an lbw? How do i prove carlos tevez is a wanker? You look at all the facts and then make an informed judgement.
Or encourage people to be more subtle about it. There is something somehow more commendable about people being honest about their deliberate transgressions (even Beckham's 'bet you people didn't think I was smart enough to do this, eh?' admission) than doing it to slyly to justify action being taken.
Tbh, it wouldn't bother me if deliberately kicking the ball away etc. to get a yellow simply became accepted culture in the game, same way people kick the ball out of play and the opponents return it when someone goes down injured etc. We'd get a 'well, looks like Lucio didn't want to carry that yellow further into the tournament. He'll miss the next game and good on him.' and that would be the end of it.
Solving the problem of a rule that does have some merit but is ultimately problematic by trivialising the negative consequences.
It's impossible to prove they did it deliberately, unless Mourinho or one of the players confess to it, and we all know it's not going to happen.
And how is UEFA supposed to change the yellow card rule? It makes sense to punish players by suspending them for the next game after accruing a certain amount of yellows, I don't see any other way.
And how is UEFA supposed to change the yellow card rule? It makes sense to punish players by suspending them for the next game after accruing a certain amount of yellows, I don't see any other way.
The burden of proof (Balance of probabilities) is on UEFA.
The facts are
1. Mourinho and his assistants were communicating with the players, throughout the match
2. Alonso and Ramos committed offenses worthy of yellow cards
3. They were sent off due to having obtained yellow cards earlier in the match
I don't see how this adds up to the charges levied against them by UEFA. In a court of law, where facts are looked at, the charges will be dismissed.
They can't prove anything. They might try a small fine but nothing else.
I'd say uefas disciplinary panel would look at suspicious cases and then make a judgement on thqt. I havent seen one poster who has suggested madrid didnt deliberately get players sent off. Again, for me, it's common sense. You shouldnt take the piss out of the rules.
You know what really gets to me is the whole show Mourinho puts on. He could have easily at half time said to Ramos to get sent off and told the rest of the players if they got themselves into a similar situation to do the same (Alonso).
But instead it has to be a big show, look at me everybody, look how intelligent I am. He loves it and he is deliberately provoking UEFA by the way he went about it. It wouldn't have made it any better by telling them to do it at half time but at least he wouldn't have made it so obvious.
But instead it has to be a big show, look at me everybody, look how intelligent I am. He loves it and he is deliberately provoking UEFA by the way he went about it. It wouldn't have made it any better by telling them to do it at half time but at least he wouldn't have made it so obvious.
They don't have to prove anything - they just have to argue that it's more than likely.
Some countries national FA can hand out stronger punishment if they feel the foul a player has commited - is really bad or intentional. They can't prove the tackle or the elbow was intentional - but they can argue that it is LIKELY that the tackle was intentional.
And ín this case - it is very likely that these 2 players were sent off deliberately to avoid bringing the yellow cards with them to the next round. So clearly they should be punished. And they will not have a hard time to argue that this was the case when you consider the players actions
It is likely that they were informed by Dudek and Casillas to do so as well - but is is not unlikely that the players were given tactical instructions (even if noone believes it) - so I assume both these players will get off the hook. Also because that leaves Real M without 2 goalkeepers in the first KO-round - and I doubt UEFA want to annoy Real that much.
So the likely is that UEFA give Ramos and Alonso a 3 match-suspension - and let everyone else off the hook. Partly because this is something they can argue - while at the same still not upsetting the big Real M too much
Some countries national FA can hand out stronger punishment if they feel the foul a player has commited - is really bad or intentional. They can't prove the tackle or the elbow was intentional - but they can argue that it is LIKELY that the tackle was intentional.
And ín this case - it is very likely that these 2 players were sent off deliberately to avoid bringing the yellow cards with them to the next round. So clearly they should be punished. And they will not have a hard time to argue that this was the case when you consider the players actions
It is likely that they were informed by Dudek and Casillas to do so as well - but is is not unlikely that the players were given tactical instructions (even if noone believes it) - so I assume both these players will get off the hook. Also because that leaves Real M without 2 goalkeepers in the first KO-round - and I doubt UEFA want to annoy Real that much.
So the likely is that UEFA give Ramos and Alonso a 3 match-suspension - and let everyone else off the hook. Partly because this is something they can argue - while at the same still not upsetting the big Real M too much
Finally. Someone who understands the balance of probabilities.
I still think UEFA might feck this up somehow.
I still think UEFA might feck this up somehow.
They've already fecked this up. Just like Eduardo's dive, they will most likely do squat.
I don't see how you can possible prove beyond a shadow of doubt that the act was done deliberately. After all aren't you supposed to be innocent until proven guilty? 
If they follow that precedent it will be fines.
Unless you are married and paying a dominatrix.
Correct
Then ask yourself why Alonso (at 87 mins) and Ramos (at 91mins) should start time wasting.
Was it really because they feared that Ajax might nip the ball off them and score 4 or more goals in the last 5 mins of the match, or was it for some other reason.
Yes, because then they get attacked and they come together more as a unit. It becomes them against the world and they play harder and with more purpose.
It's something he's always done and it's quite effective.
But this is Real Madrid, the us against the world bit is mandatory with or without Mourinho. He's a brilliant coach and doesn't have to resort to these type of tactics to make his team one. All he has to do is make them winners which with his coaching skill set he will eventually do. When you're a winner, everybody will turn against you, good etiquette or not.
It was because they wanted to get sent off and enter the knock-out stages without a yellow card on their record.
You and I both (and everyone else) know that's exactly what happened. Hence it shouldn't be too hard to argue that - on the balance of probabilities - they got booked deliberately.
Glad to see some form of motions in action to show this kind of behaviour shouldn't be deemed acceptable
I don't know what punishments they have available to them, but for me a quite satisfactory outcome would be to ban them for the first knockout leg, given that's what they were trying to avoid. No-one will try this again then, problem solved
Pretty depressing thread this really, seeing how many people think this is clever or acceptable. I guess top level football is merely reflecting society
I don't know what punishments they have available to them, but for me a quite satisfactory outcome would be to ban them for the first knockout leg, given that's what they were trying to avoid. No-one will try this again then, problem solved
Pretty depressing thread this really, seeing how many people think this is clever or acceptable. I guess top level football is merely reflecting society
I don't see how you can possible prove beyond a shadow of doubt that the act was done deliberately. After all aren't you supposed to be innocent until proven guilty?
That's just it, they don't have to prove beyond a shadow of a doubt.
You'd think Maureen had invented siege mentality.
Fergie was using it when Jose was still in nappies.
Fergie was using it when Jose was still in nappies.
I still don't really know how the yellows in the CL work - they get wiped at some point, right?
Presumably they aren't wiped at the end of the group stage because if it was just a matter of not getting another yellow and therefore missing the first knockout then he'd just rest them for the final group match.
So do the cards in the two final 16 matches get added to the group ones - and this is about protecting players for a QF? Do the "got one or two cards group" then get their cards wiped prior to the QF stage?
Presumably they aren't wiped at the end of the group stage because if it was just a matter of not getting another yellow and therefore missing the first knockout then he'd just rest them for the final group match.
So do the cards in the two final 16 matches get added to the group ones - and this is about protecting players for a QF? Do the "got one or two cards group" then get their cards wiped prior to the QF stage?