Funnily enough no I don't, but that doesn't mean that the above GIF shows a blatant dive. Any evasive action he takes is with his right leg as he plants it, which is minimal to be honest. After that he falls to the ground. You're not honestly saying he's not dived are you?
Madrid's deliberate red cards
- Thread starter Carl
- Start date
Funnily enough no I don't, but that doesn't mean that the above GIF shows a blatant dive. Any evasive action he takes is with his right leg as he plants it, which is minimal to be honest. After that he falls to the ground. You're not honestly saying he's not dived are you?
If it happens, it might speak volumes. But it haven't, you just made it up, so it does not speak volumes.
The noggie head ref says that FIFA can punish these players, so if that is still being discussed, it can be put to bed now.
you're one of the most persistently clueless posters on here. Congratulations.
Hey, I'm not the idiot who follows another team on a United board. I think you may be the saddest of them all.
Only the Mourinho groupies who'll die before his name is connected with anything remotely sly and cynical and who accuse anyone with a shred of common sense that can see this is systematic abuse of the laws as being anti-Mourinho, anti-Madrid etc are responsible for it dragging on to the ridiculous length it has.
I'm convinced that he's going to find some of them naked in his hotel room with a tub of lube and some prayer mats one of these days
Actually this comes from the fact that the players were punished, and apparently this isn't enough for the self righteous out there, who want retroactive bans that have no merit.
Also a quick look at page one proves you wrong,the only mentions of Mourinho are "If he takes over I don't want us doing this shit" and "only a Mourinho team would do this"
He has dived, clearly, but to be fair he expected a certain challenge from Hamman and any player from any team would have 'simulated' under the challenge he expected. That's the way the game is nowadays and how the authorities rid us of that is another topic.
I'm not in the habit of defending Arsenal or Vieira but that is a misleading gif - you could almost argue that Hamman is just as guilty of trying to get a player sent off...
Of course there's a difference. Nobody is claiming any different. If UEFA do take Madrid to task they would be treading new ground.
What we're discussing now is whether or not UEFA have grounds to take unusual steps to punish unusually blatant exploitation of a loop-hole in the laws and whether or not we think they should take these steps.
Thats terrible behaviour
Well, they weren't punished. They sought punishment, so to say they received punishment would be wrong. It's an obvious gray area and as I've said, rules are made to be tested, holes are meant to be found. That is what managers do in all of sport.
what a load of crap, you don't half talk some rubbish when your failing in a debate. I've pointed out to you repeatedly that there was no rule broken, and it's evident that no rule has been broken because you're resorting to the pathetically vague 'unsportsmanlike' rule which could be argued about any number of things every week and invoking it would set absurd precedent. But pointing out inconvenient truths you don't like is 'muddying the water'! You're a card! I expect you to stay out of the thread for a while now and then come back and post the same things over again in the hope that nobody will notice.
Insourcing should have been unsporting, bloody iPhone spell check thing went mad.
Yes I can see why people are annoyed that they've pulled something of a fast one, but the annoyance should be aimed at the rule makers, not the people who are taking advantage of a loophole the size of saturn.
They broke a rule (time wasting) and were punished (yellow card). Now we have people arguing that intentions when breaking rules should be taken into account when deciding punishment, ignoring the fact that theres no rule about that? That doesn't sit right for me.
You can't suddenly punish Madrid for what others have done in the past. Clearly the difference here is Madrid did it with two players instead of the usual one.
It's wrong but the rule needs to be spelled out after this incident. Trying to prove they did this purposefully would be ridiculous and lengthy.
If you do punish then, then what? If players want to be sent off next time they know exactly what to do - go in hard and get a yellow. Then they risk injuring an opposing player.
Forget the GIF. In the narrative of the game Hamann (who has hacked a couple of players already) comes across with the ball well gone and looks as if he's going to take him out. That's why he goes down - otherwise he'd have been scooting clean through. My thought watching it was 'Oh, shit he's gonna clean Pat out'
At he end of the day (football cliche alert) the only action they did on the pitch that was against the rules was time wasting, which they were rightly given second yellow's for, there can be no arguements on this, so should there be a ban because people suspect they wanted to get booked?
You really think they were punished?
Surely a punishment is, by definition, an outcome you don't actively seek? More to the point, what kind of "punishment" gives a team an advantage in a cup competition?
The point being made (repeatedly) is that they didn't receive a "punishment", by any sane definition of the word, for blatant gamesmanship and cheating.
Lets face facts, loyalties to a particular person(and Jose Mourinho has somehow developed a pretty loyal bunch of disciples on here despite never having any association with our club and despite popular delusions, is far from certain to have in the future)tend to influence people's opinions on what they do, not just in sport but in life. I'm pretty sure if Rafa and Inter got up to the same tricks, they'd have been branded as cheats and Rafa as an evil anti-Christ with not one iota of manegerial ability. I'm sure if Wenger and Arsenal did it, they'd be harangued as a disgrace and Wenger would be branded a hypocritical cheat. But because it's our Lord Jose Mourinho, nailed on future manager of Manchester United, it's all fine and it's common practice, blah, blah, fecking blah.
I couldn't disagree more. I feel very little annoyance, none in fact, at the people who have innocently attempted to draw up rules to a game. I do feel annoyed at people who have cynically abused them though.
I'm not saying no-one else would do it, just calling bullshit on Peter's stance that Vieira was trying to avoid Hamman, and subsequently telling people they'd never played before.
And no, you couldn't argue that Hamman was trying to get someone sent off. He was trying to get the ball, realised he couldn't, and pulled away. He can't be blamed for anticipating and causing 'simulation' on another player's behalf. Crazy suggestion.
Anyway, bit of a tangent this so we might as well leave it there.
How on earth is it a 'punishment' when that's exactly what they were seeking?
It's precisely because of this that some are saying the incident should be looked at again by the authorities.
Would have liked to have seen the ref given them both straight reds for bringing the game into disrepute.
I'm on your side. I don't think they should be punished. I'm only pointing out you do yourself a disservice with the argument you are taking, that they were not punished. Others are calling for them to be punished for essentially, finding a loophole in the punishment rules.
Wiki's definition of punishment.
I understand that as if UEFA punish them further but they don't have the authority than it isn't rightly a punishment.
Whatever. I hate Madrid and I've never liked Jose but I don't think they deserve to be punished here. Go figure, I don't fall into your stellar theory of complete bullshit.
Eh, I'm winning the argument and you're the one talking crap. Deal with the issues on the table instead of burbling: was it cynical gamesmanship and is there a rule to punish it?
My God you must have hated Ronaldo.
I know I'd said I'd stop, but only just seen this. I'll have to take your word for it that he was clean through. In any case going down is not the best way to avoid being hurt/caught/fouled. That would be hurdling the challenge.
Done now. As you were Peter xx
I await proof that they did.
if they get wiped clean why didnt they just not get 2nd yellows and just not play them in the next match which they cant play in now cos they are suspended
There is no "loophole", if the was enough evidence they'd be punished for this offence ala Beckham for the same thing. It's like saying withholding evidence in a murder enquiry justifies the charge but getting off on lack of evidence is exploiting a loophole.
There has clearly been an offence committed here, whether the powers that be have enough evidence or the people in on the scam will provide it, is another matter and one that will see them off the hook on a technicality.
I disagree.
Well Beckham got fined for giving evidence against himself, when here there is no evidence other than circumstances, which makes it entirely different.
No it isn't. You can see on the gif that the ball is already gone and Hamman is clearly looking at Vieira's feet rather than the ball. I think the ball is too far gone to argue he was 'trying to get the ball'.
You're right that it's a tangent but it's certainly not 'crazy' to suggest he was going for the player rather than the ball - clearly looks like he was going to nick Vieira as he went past then changed his mind.
There's an element of truth to this, I really don't understand the Mourinho love-in that is spreading like the bubonic plague on this forum.
So, why didn't Viera just jump over his leg?
Yea, course you are! Maybe if you define winning an argument as 'ignoring any pesky facts that don't fit with my point of view and then call those who disagree with me clueless in the hope it baffles them into submission'.
Back on planet Earth though, you are resorting to acting a bit of a dick with some of your posts on the last page and are yet to admit that the simple fact is there is no rule against what the Madrid players did last night.
Irony at it's finest!
Arguably, yes.
No, which is where you fall to pieces are start clutching at 'unsporting behaviour', whilst ignoring any other instance of unsporting behaviour because it gets in the way of you wanting to arbitrarily throw extra punishments around just because this one instance has got ants in your pants.
Uh oh. Here we go. This is where the thread moves away from people discussing the rules of the game and how they should be implemented and to how much one does or does not love Jose.
It's more to do with how people's logical reasoning is warped by their wholly illogical adulation of one man.
You're lagging behind a bit mate. Already dealt with.
You're just making my point.
No, Mourinho has shit all to do with the debate. If you want to argue the points in the debate then jump in but if you're just going to sit there calling everyone on one side of the argument 'fanbois' or other such childish crap then just give up.
I agree totally. Anyone with eyes and no pro-Mourinho agenda knows what happened and why, it's crystal clear that foul practice has been happening but like you said, the evidence is only circumstancial however damning it appears.
Like I said earlier, Mourinho could just stand up at a CAS court and claim he wanted to pass onto Ramos via Casillas that he was having chops for dinner. That doesn't make him and his team innocent though, the same applies to M'Bia and Marseille.