Madrid's deliberate red cards

It has no bearing on this matter whatsoever, and is a silly comparison, much like every other comparison so far!

However, it shouldn't be accepted that the above clip was evasive action. That was a man falling to the ground for no reason.
 
Hectic said:
It has no bearing on this matter whatsoever, and is a silly comparison, much like every other comparison so far!

However, it shouldn't be accepted that the above clip was evasive action. That was a man falling to the ground for no reason.
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You haven't played much football have you?
 
peterstorey said:
The Vieira clip is a complete red herring in any case.
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It's certainly irrelevant to the incidents being discussed.

I do think that if that gif was taken from a game last night - and we were discussing whether or not UEFA should use whatever means possible to retrospectively punish Vieira - we'd see a completely different response from some of those most enthusiastically defending the Real Madrid players.

Which speaks volumes really.
 
phelans shorts said:
If you noticed I quoted Pete, since Arsenal are involved it is related to the point those with sense are making, if you want to retroactively punish gamesmanship then you go back several years, not just one day. Of which this is much worse than Real btw, who were punished at the time.
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I agree with Pete though actually - the Vieira incident makes for a great gif but most players would have gone down in response to the challenge Hamman looked like he was going to be making. The only reason the gif works so well at apparently exposing Vieira is because of the unusual way the Liverpool player pulls back so quickly after apparently committing.

Whatever, having to players purposely sent off and it being a clearly planned event by the team and it's management is a totally different scenario - it adds up to another grimy incident in the Mourinho portfolio for me... It reminds me more of O'Sullivan being disciplined for playing left handed against weak snooker opponents - they were effectively telling Ajax that they were so shite they were confident of seeing them off with just nine men.
 
The fact remains, this is gamesmanship, all acts of gamesmanship (time wasting, professional fouls, handballs etc...) are all bookable offences, these cannot be changed later, just because someone (most notably surprise surprise pogue and pete) got on their high horse doesn't change the facts, they have been punished, with a yellow card, as the rules clearly state.
 
Look mate you're a decent poster normally but you're missing the point here.
 
phelans shorts said:
The fact remains, this is gamesmanship, all acts of gamesmanship (time wasting, professional fouls, handballs etc...) are all bookable offences, these cannot be changed later, just because someone (most notably surprise surprise pogue and pete) got on their high horse doesn't change the facts, they have been punished, with a yellow card, as the rules clearly state.
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Except they can be.

The article 10 quote a while back allows for an increased duration of their ban, in the case of "unsporting behaviour". Hence the last few pages of discussion.
 
Pogue Mahone said:
It's certainly irrelevant to the incidents being discussed.

I do think that if that gif was taken from a game last night - and we were discussing whether or not UEFA should use whatever means possible to retrospectively punish Vieira - we'd see a completely different response from some of those most enthusiastically defending the Real Madrid players.

Which speaks volumes really.
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If that had been last night and he'd been booked for diving would you be on here saying he should be punished on top of the booking because it's unsporting?
 
Nick unsuccessfully tried to diverge the argument to muddy the waters (a common ploy on here). But we're not having it. Judge this one on its merits. And it stinks.
 
BaldwinLegend said:
I agree with Pete though actually - the Vieira incident makes for a great gif but most players would have gone down in response to the challenge Hamman looked like he was going to be making. The only reason the gif works so well at apparently exposing Vieira is because of the unusual way the Liverpool player pulls back so quickly after apparently committing.

Whatever, having to players purposely sent off and it being a clearly planned event by the team and it's management is a totally different scenario - it adds up to another grimy incident in the Mourinho portfolio for me... It reminds me more of O'Sullivan being disciplined for playing left handed against weak snooker opponents - they were effectively telling Ajax that they were so shite they were confident of seeing them off with just nine men.
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Bollocks. You're sensationalising it there. They were 4-0 up and there were 87 mins played when Alonso was sent off, and 90+1 mins gone when Ramos was sent off.

It's simply making use of what's allowed to maximally benefit the team. Is it 'grimy' to exaggerate the extent of a player's injury in the run up to a game? We've done that plenty of times. Is it 'grimy' to defend your own players in an interview when you know they've done wrong. We've done that plenty of times. Is it 'grimy' to appeal a red card, knowing full well it will be turned down, so the player is eligible to play in a more important game? We've done that too.
 
R_Nick said:
If that had been last night and he'd been booked for diving would you be on here saying he should be punished on top of the booking because it's insourcing?
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"insourcing"? I don't get you.

Re; Vieira, a booking would have been adequate punishment because that's what it is, punishment.

What sticks in the craw here is that the "punishment" they received wasn't anything of the sort. In fact it was exactly what they wanted. Hence, there's a sense of injustice over them deliberately time-wasting and being rewarded with a clean slate for the next round of games.

They've deliberately and cynically cheated and been fecking rewarded for their efforts. Surely to Christ you can see why some people might have an issue with that?
 
Pogue Mahone said:
It's certainly irrelevant to the incidents being discussed.

I do think that if that gif was taken from a game last night - and we were discussing whether or not UEFA should use whatever means possible to retrospectively punish Vieira - we'd see a completely different response from some of those most enthusiastically defending the Real Madrid players.

Which speaks volumes really.
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Not really, a lot of us hate/dislike Madrid and their players but can't see the need for retro-action.

I dislike Madrid far more then Arsenal anyway.
 
Pogue Mahone said:
It's certainly irrelevant to the incidents being discussed.

I do think that if that gif was taken from a game last night - and we were discussing whether or not UEFA should use whatever means possible to retrospectively punish Vieira - we'd see a completely different response from some of those most enthusiastically defending the Real Madrid players.

Which speaks volumes really.
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Is also the opposite equivalent of:

If we were to have a thread discussing Zilena doing the same thing against Arsenal yesterday, how many of the posters would still feel so passionate about the offenses, or forget that, how many posters would even bother to read the opening post...
 
I don't see the problem to be honest, that said I hate the way it was contrived but I'm not sure anything can be proven against them.
 
Pogue Mahone said:
Except they can be.

The article 10 quote a while back allows for an increased duration of their ban, in the case of "unsporting behaviour". Hence the last few pages of discussion.
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It's up to the ref and he won't sanction any further. It doesn't matter to him what competition it is or who's playing, he refs the game all the same.

Ref's have never in retrospect mentioned a diver in their report and they will certainly not do anything about Madrid's yellows.
 
Hectic said:
Is also the opposite equivalent of:

If we were to have a thread discussing Zilena doing the same thing against Arsenal yesterday, how many of the posters would still feel so passionate about the offenses, or forget that, how many posters would even bother to read the opening post...
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I think all United fans tend to have more of an interest in our "rivals" - whether local or international - being punished for acting like cnuts than we would about what goes on with every other team in world football.

Real Madrid are one of the clubs most likely to stop us winning the CL this season. Hence, I would assume that most United fans would relish the thought of the feckers being dragged over the coals for something like this. Apparently not.
 
What would Madrid's reaction be if the players were banned for the start of the KOs? Because I imagine they'd take it further and appeal etc and drag it out for ages.
 
Spoony Youngblood said:
I don't see the problem to be honest, that said I hate they way it was contrived but I'm not sure anything can be proven against them.
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Look Judge Spoons, your honour, in your opinion is the probability that they cynically manufactured a yellow to gain an advantage? If so contempt of court. Send 'em dahn.
 
peterstorey said:
The thing about that one is that Hamann, as was his wont ,had hacked a couple of our players just before. As he came across to do it again Pat took evasive action to avoid a smack across the shins - Hamann pulls out and he looks foolish.
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:lol::lol:
 
Pogue Mahone said:
It's certainly irrelevant to the incidents being discussed.

I do think that if that gif was taken from a game last night - and we were discussing whether or not UEFA should use whatever means possible to retrospectively punish Vieira - we'd see a completely different response from some of those most enthusiastically defending the Real Madrid players.

Which speaks volumes really.
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There is a specific rule against diving, correct?

Then you see the difference.
 
Pogue Mahone said:
I think all United fans tend to have more of an interest in our "rivals" - whether local or international - being punished for acting like cnuts than we would about what goes on with every other team in world football.

Real Madrid are one of the clubs most likely to stop us winning the CL this season. Hence, I would assume that most United fans would relish the thought of the feckers being dragged over the coals for something like this. Apparently not.
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I'd relish the thought if was something I thought was that bad, just because they are our rivals doesn't mean I can invent anger I don't have.

It's not as simple as people defending Real Madrid, agreed they are cnuts, led by a bigger one, but had it been anyone else my view would still be the same, because I don't see the act as that bad.

I have a bigger problem with the law in this case, then the players who broke it.
 
Snow said:
It's up to the ref and he won't sanction any further. It doesn't matter to him what competition it is or who's playing, he refs the game all the same.

Ref's have never in retrospect mentioned a diver in their report and they will certainly not do anything about Madrid's yellows.
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It's outside the ref's jurisdiction IMO. It has to be dealt with at the disciplinary tribunal level.
 
peterstorey said:
Look Judge Spoons, your honour, in your opinion is the probability that they cynically manufactured a yellow to gain an advantage? If so contempt of court. Send 'em dahn.
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I think that's the real issue here. It looked bad and yeah I don't like way it was contrived but what exactly can UEFA do about it?
 
pete, don't be a dick, and don't assume you know us on a personal level either.

'Never kicked a ball'- What a pompous twat.
 
Pogue Mahone said:
I think all United fans tend to have more of an interest in our "rivals" - whether local or international - being punished for acting like cnuts than we would about what goes on with every other team in world football.

Real Madrid are one of the clubs most likely to stop us winning the CL this season. Hence, I would assume that most United fans would relish the thought of the feckers being dragged over the coals for something like this. Apparently not.
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Actually, I relish beating the best other teams out there and at full strength, then there are not excuses or bullshit. Take Munich last year. Had no place in the final because of the endless stream of bullshit decisions that led to their making it to the final.
 
Spoony Youngblood said:
I think that's the real issue here. It looked bad and yeah I don't like way it was contrived but what exactly can UEFA do about it?
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They've got a nicely framed Rule 10, which would enable them to extend the ban to cover the KO stage. An elegant punishment.
 
Hectic said:
I'd relish the thought if was something I thought was that bad, just because they are our rivals doesn't mean I can invent anger I don't have.

It's not as simple as people defending Real Madrid, agreed they are cnuts, led by a bigger one, but had it been anyone else my view would still be the same, because I don't see the act as that bad.

I have a bigger problem with the law in this case, then the players who broke it.
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Exactly. This is about UEFA, not the players.
 
peterstorey said:
Another twat who's never kicked a ball.
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I know it's an unrelated topic, the Vieira dive, but you're really talking out your arse on the matter. He saw Hamman's leg come out and went down to get him sent off, not to take evasive action. You're the one coming across as if you've never played or even watched much football to be honest. Seems like blind loyalty to your ex-captain.
 
vuc said:
:lol: 10 pages now.. only on the cafe
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Only the Mourinho groupies who'll die before his name is connected with anything remotely sly and cynical and who accuse anyone with a shred of common sense that can see this is systematic abuse of the laws as being anti-Mourinho, anti-Madrid etc are responsible for it dragging on to the ridiculous length it has.

I'm convinced that he's going to find some of them naked in his hotel room with a tub of lube and some prayer mats one of these days :smirk:
 
peterstorey said:
Another twat who's never kicked a ball.
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If that's what you need to pretend to justify your bullshit.

I more come from the world where if I don't know anything about a person I don't make idiotic statements about their life.

But, that's just me. I'm not an idiot.
 
Joey Mac said:
I know it's an unrelated topic, the Vieira dive, but you're really talking out your arse on the matter. He saw Hamman's leg come out and went down to get him sent off, not to take evasive action. You're the one coming across as if you've never played or even watched much football to be honest. Seems like blind loyalty to your ex-captain.
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Do you remember watching the game? Thought not.
 
Joey Mac said:
Bollocks. You're sensationalising it there. They were 4-0 up and there were 87 mins played when Alonso was sent off, and 90+1 mins gone when Ramos was sent off.

It's simply making use of what's allowed to maximally benefit the team. Is it 'grimy' to exaggerate the extent of a player's injury in the run up to a game? We've done that plenty of times. Is it 'grimy' to defend your own players in an interview when you know they've done wrong. We've done that plenty of times. Is it 'grimy' to appeal a red card, knowing full well it will be turned down, so the player is eligible to play in a more important game? We've done that too.
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It doesn't matter how many minutes were left - it's still disrespectful to the opponent. Ajax were decent enough not to give up so Madrid should have shown them the respect of keeping all 11 men on the pitch till the final whistle.

Not sure why you've felt the need to put quote marks around the word grimy each time you've used it. If you're implying I've misspelled it you might want to check a dictionary.
 
WireRed said:
Only the Mourinho groupies who'll die before his name is connected with anything remotely sly and cynical and who accuse anyone with a shred of common sense that can see this is systematic abuse of the laws as being anti-Mourinho, anti-Madrid etc are responsible for it dragging on to the ridiculous length it has.
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This is my favorite of all the types of arguments we constantly see here on Red Cafe. Undermine what is a decent argument because you disagree by attacking the person's love or lack of love for a player/manager.

Try sticking to the actual points because this one always degenerates a thread into complete nonsense. See: Sam G and Rafa
 
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