Television Mad Men | SPOILERS

Duffy said:
Well if you're not a fan why come in the thread to go on about how it's so different from your office job. What has this fictional program about an ad man trying to find his true place in the world got to do with your job? :lol:

The show was not about America primarily. America was not the focus of the show, a single work place and a particular group of characters were, so why would it have to include every form of racial and sexual prejudice that happened at the time for it not to be "tame, moralistic and plastic". In your view?

Yeah I think we are a long way apart in that I seem to be able to enjoy something for what it is, a well written well made television show. I'm also able to avoid picking holes in a show because it doesn't fit into what I think it is supposed to mean.

It's like me turning around and saying Breaking Bad wasn't about a man doing what he has to, before his death, to provide for his family - actually, because my wife is a teacher and I drink with a guy who is a teacher, I'm aware that Breaking Bad was actually about teachers and how teachers are the backbone to our society. Walter White as a teacher was able to out think everyone to become Heisenberg and truely show what level of power, knowledge provides us with.

Now, if you'll excuse me I'm going to find the Breaking Bad thread and go and post an extensive diatribe (yeah I know fancy words too) about the show because it was a tame, moralistic and plastic representation of what teachers represent.
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Very interesting rant but highly ineffective. If you had looked deeper and seen through the thin veneer of what was really being aired as opposed to what the producers wanted you to go away with it might have been an eye opener for you. Instead you have gone off half cock about nothing to do with the show and where does one have to like a show to watch it or even criticise it. Are you the owner of this thread and have set the rules to no criticism?:nervous:

Where does my previous career come into it - only as a gauge to discuss how extreme it really was and is in American corporate life. Surely that alone might inform you that the gap between tame fiction and corporate reality is much larger than you seem to wish to appreciate. The reason why I mentioned such moments was to point out how the writers of Mad Men had swerved the challenge. Imagine the makers of The Wire treating American Corporatism with similar disdain. Don't you find it interesting that Don's firm received a military contract but he wasn't vetted for his past by an organisation keen to root out any dodgy persons? In the end I notice how well this series has gone down with the American press during a time when they singularly failed to examine the Bush regime.

As to your references to BB at this time I'm not sure what that has to do with anything thus far. But, perhaps only reinforces your serious error that Mad Men isn't about America. With the strong references to Korea, Vietnam, The Kennedy assassinations, the references to the other side of the pond, really not about America?:lol:

I hope your wife has a nice day, teaching is an arduous but wonderful profession.:)
 
Stretford End Phil said:
Very interesting rant but highly ineffective. If you had looked deeper and seen through the thin veneer of what was really being aired as opposed to what the producers wanted you to go away with it might have been an eye opener for you. Instead you have gone off half cock about nothing to do with the show and where does one have to like a show to watch it or even criticise it. Are you the owner of this thread and have set the rules to no criticism?:nervous:

Where does my previous career come into it - only as a gauge to discuss how extreme it really was and is in American corporate life. Surely that alone might inform you that the gap between tame fiction and corporate reality is much larger than you seem to wish to appreciate. The reason why I mentioned such moments was to point out how the writers of Mad Men had swerved the challenge. Imagine the makers of The Wire treating American Corporatism with similar disdain. Don't you find it interesting that Don's firm received a military contract but he wasn't vetted for his past by an organisation keen to root out any dodgy persons? In the end I notice how well this series has gone down with the American press during a time when they singularly failed to examine the Bush regime.

As to your references to BB at this time I'm not sure what that has to do with anything thus far. But, perhaps only reinforces your serious error that Mad Men isn't about America. With the strong references to Korea, Vietnam, The Kennedy assassinations, the references to the other side of the pond, really not about America?:lol:

I hope your wife has a nice day, teaching is an arduous but wonderful profession.:)
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Ok I've just looked deeper and I see what I saw before. The show is about how people change and develop. No I don't own the thread but I can tell you if you keep going in random threads acting the big I am you're gonna end up getting plenty more backs up, which I'm guessing by your general demeanour is your aim, so well done.

They have not swerved a challenge by not featuring exactly what you want them to feature, just because they didn't have events that may have happened in the New York office of McDougle and Dick in 1902 doesn't mean you are right. Do you think anyone has ever had their foot chopped to pieces by a lawnmower in an office block? Probably not, but it's in there because it is fiction. This is not an exact representation of your life, it's about a dude called Don Draper and the people he worked with. Because it uses real events as part of its story does not mean it has to be a complete and exact retelling of the time.

The story is about characters, fictional characters and the way they develop over a ten year span. The events that prop up the show serve as a timeline and to show how peoples attitudes change with events that unfold through life. It is not about America, it's about a group of fictional characters.

Oh and taking the piss with that final comment doesn't make you better than anyone and it doesn't make you smart. I've met so many old men like yourself who assume because they have had life experience and have seen some racists eat a sandwich or whatever nonsense you were talking before, that you can talk down to people and clearly try and take the piss of what my wife does as a profession? :lol: News flash pal, you're not that important, and if you'd have accomplished half as much you seem to assume you have, you probably wouldn't be wasting your time on here.

You having a nice day, being a keyboard warrior and all round wally is a very arduous way of life.
 
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Duffy said:
Ok I've just looked deeper and I see what I saw before. The show is about how people change and develop. No I don't own the thread but I can tell you if you keep going in random threads acting the big I am you're gonna end up getting plenty more backs up, which I'm guessing by your general demeanour is your aim, so well done.

They have not swerved a challenge by not featuring exactly what you want them to feature, just because they didn't have events that may have happened in the New York office of McDougle and Dick in 1902 doesn't mean you are right. Do you think anyone has ever had their foot chopped to pieces by a lawnmower in an office block? Probably not, but it's in there because it is fiction. This is not an exact representation of your life, it's about a dude called Don Draper and the people her worked with. Because it uses real events as part of its story does not mean it has to be a biographical retelling of the time.

The story is about characters, fictional characters and the way they develop over a ten year span. The events that prop up the show serve as a timeline and to show how peoples attitudes change with events that unfold through life. It is not about America, it's about a group of fictional characters.

Oh and taking the piss with that final comment doesn't make you better than anyone and it doesn't make you smart. I've met so many old men like yourself who assume because they have had life experience and have seen some racists eat a sandwich or whatever nonsense you were talking before, that you can talk down to people and clearly try and take the piss of what my wife does as a profession? :lol: News flash pal, you're not that important, and if you'd have accomplished half as much you seem to assume you have, you probably wouldn't be wasting your time on here.

You having a nice day, being a keyboard warrior and all round wally is a very arduous way of life.
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My comment about your wife is because I became a teacher of sorts after a time in business in the 1990s, and remained so until forced to stop work due to ill health.

Joining threads as I understand it is about offering discussion, and sometimes hearing criticism. Because I offered criticism about the show you appear to have taken it personally. This was not my intention but if it will calm you down I apologise for causing you any personal hurt.

As to my failings or accomplishments and their relationship to being on here, they are irrelevant.
 
Stretford End Phil said:
My comment about your wife is because I became a teacher of sorts after a time in business in the 1990s, and remained so until forced to stop work due to ill health.

Joining threads as I understand it is about offering discussion, and sometimes hearing criticism. Because I offered criticism about the show you appear to have taken it personally. This was not my intention but if it will calm you down I apologise for causing you any personal hurt.

As to my failings or accomplishments and their relationship to being on here, they are irrelevant.
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To be fair the whole post and your general approach to the discussion seemed to be a little bit piss-takey and demeaning which is why I took the last comment the way I did.

No need for apologies, each have our own views of how the show went I suppose, like I say was more the whole attitude that got my back up and I'm sure it may have done the same to others. I just don't feel that you having seen and experianced things through your life and/or career warrant such a disagreeance with anyone else's perception of the show.
 
Stretford End Phil said:
I thought the last series they were clutching at straws to make it work. The characters became the deals rather than working as deal makers. They all suddenly became introspective in scenes that generated a major anticlimax in their rush to get through to the end.

There seemed to be an assumption that's there's no life after an acquisition, as if the spark of ingenuity is suddenly extinguished with a takeover. There is an absurdity in top business and the flotsam often get to the top just as much as the good people but that crowd were more than bizarre. Large American corporations were heavily bureaucratic in the early 70s but mid-way through the decade they were already breaking away from their old past. The leading firms in that break away were the marketing consultants so I was surprised at how ponderous the big firm was in its dealings with them. Sexism and racism were major issues top New York firms from the 60s and we're never really explored. Disappointed but not unexpected ending.
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Sexism was explored in the show - it was massive. It was especially prominent in the early seasons (look at how Pete treats Peggy in the first episode), with pretty much all of the younger ad men apart from Sal often being very pushy and sexist towards the women. The office was largely male-dominated, with men mostly all in important positions.

The decade kind of shows a gradual transition, with Peggy and Joan growing more established roles, but the sexism is still there. As soon as Joan moves to McCann, and is around people she isn't used to, they're treating her as an object again. Sexism is prevalent throughout the show; it's one of the major themes.

Racism isn't as big, but I think that was largely done because the show is from the perspective of (in some cases) rich white characters. They're not being forced to deal with race issues in the early-60s, which is why it's a skirting issue.

They kind of tackled it a bit later in the show, with the introduction of Dawn and Shirley. My main complaint with that though was that Dawn, despite being kind of important in Season 7A and getting a bit of backstory, sort of just disappeared completely. Might have been cast problems, but she just seemed to leave without explanation, which was a shame. Still, I'd say that the show tackled race well considering it was never supposed to be a major issue because of the characters we're following.
 
Cheesy said:
Sexism was explored in the show - it was massive. It was especially prominent in the early seasons (look at how Pete treats Peggy in the first episode), with pretty much all of the younger ad men apart from Sal often being very pushy and sexist towards the women. The office was largely male-dominated, with men mostly all in important positions.

The decade kind of shows a gradual transition, with Peggy and Joan growing more established roles, but the sexism is still there. As soon as Joan moves to McCann, and is around people she isn't used to, they're treating her as an object again. Sexism is prevalent throughout the show; it's one of the major themes.

Racism isn't as big, but I think that was largely done because the show is from the perspective of (in some cases) rich white characters. They're not being forced to deal with race issues in the early-60s, which is why it's a skirting issue.

They kind of tackled it a bit later in the show, with the introduction of Dawn and Shirley. My main complaint with that though was that Dawn, despite being kind of important in Season 7A and getting a bit of backstory, sort of just disappeared completely. Might have been cast problems, but she just seemed to leave without explanation, which was a shame. Still, I'd say that the show tackled race well considering it was never supposed to be a major issue because of the characters we're following.
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Totally agree with your point of view. I'd just add that there was a quite subtle reference to the racism part, I feel, in the penultimate episode (or the one before that), when they were leaving the Sterling Cooper offices and the black secretary (was it Dawn or another?) said to Rodger, after he'd offered her a job, that the environment wasnt for everyone or something along those lines. I felt she was hinting at the casual and ingrained racism (even though it was never violent) of the milieu, which Rodger understood with an "oh...".

Saying the show didn't tackle sexism is ludicrous though.
 
Rooney in Dublin said:
Totally agree with your point of view. I'd just add that there was a quite subtle reference to the racism part, I feel, in the penultimate episode (or the one before that), when they were leaving the Sterling Cooper offices and the black secretary (was it Dawn or another?) said to Rodger, after he'd offered her a job, that the environment wasnt for everyone or something along those lines. I felt she was hinting at the casual and ingrained racism (even though it was never violent) of the milieu, which Rodger understood with an "oh...".

Saying the show didn't tackle sexism is ludicrous though.
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The black one that we saw towards the end was Shirley. Dawn sort of just disappeared in 7B, which was what disappointed me since she'd been a decent character was given a little bit of backstory too. Shirley talking about the environment like you say though highlighted the subtle racism that was still there, and was done well. It'd have been easy for the show to go very heavy-handed on the issue, but it's the subtle, in the background portrayal of it that I love.

I always remember the brilliant scene between Pete and the elevator operator Hollis in the early seasons. Despite being a dick, Pete's a fairly progressive guy, so he tries to open a conversation regarding something he's doing for an ad. But he still feels kind of awkward about it and Hollis regards him with suspicion, because normal conversation between the white elite and the working black man are still quite rare at that time.
 
Cheesy said:
The black one that we saw towards the end was Shirley.
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Was a bit racist of me to confuse them, wasn't it? :)

I thought it wasn't Dawn but I couldn't remember Shirley's name, cheers! And agree with you, I'd forgotten that Pete scene you talk about, it was very well done, and it highlights how Mad Men addressed a lot of these issues it touched upon (racism, feminism, homosexuality in the workplace): it was never on the nose and was always done quite intelligently. The feminism aspect was strongly addressed but mainly because it had such strong female characters, and given the subject matter it was impossible not to look into it.
 
Rooney in Dublin said:
Was a bit racist of me to confuse them, wasn't it? :)

I thought it wasn't Dawn but I couldn't remember Shirley's name, cheers! And agree with you, I'd forgotten that Pete scene you talk about, it was very well done, and it highlights how Mad Men addressed a lot of these issues it touched upon (racism, feminism, homosexuality in the workplace): it was never on the nose and was always done quite intelligently. The feminism aspect was strongly addressed but mainly because it had such strong female characters, and given the subject matter it was impossible not to look into it.
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Racist!;)

But I think I remember an episode where Dawn and Shirley kind of had an in-joke where they'd change names when talking to each other, to kind of highlight that most other people in the office just thought of them as black woman #1 and black woman #2.

And I suppose it always made more sense for them to tackle sexism and feminism a lot more directly in the show, since it was always a much more prevalent issue. Even then though, they managed to do it well in that it would often be very underlying. It'd have been easy for them to go all heavy-handed on the issue, but it was generally restrained enough.
 
Cheesy said:
Racist!;)

But I think I remember an episode where Dawn and Shirley kind of had an in-joke where they'd change names when talking to each other, to kind of highlight that most other people in the office just thought of them as black woman #1 and black woman #2.
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Which one was portrayed by Morgan Freeman?
 
To me, the ending seemed to be rushed to give everyone their send offs. Should have been feature-length for me, the various endings could have been fleshed out a bit and some of the issues raised in this thread could have been worked around a bit more.

I would have preferred the darker, more obvious ending of Don jumping but I suppose they were always going to go the other way. He actually managed to 'find himself' out there after wandering aimlessly (which was very funny) and of course what he finds is that he really loves his work.

It had definitely ran out of steam this season and I do believe it was a good point to finish it.
 
Rooney in Dublin said:
What?! Racism was looked at (maybe a bit superficially) and sexism was maybe the core element of the whole show!

By the way @R.N7, did you enjoy the finale? Don't think you've posted on it.
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I liked it. Being an ad men was in the end his calling in life and he sort of finally accepted the Don Draper name. With Betty dying and Stephanie running away he realized he's needed in New York where people will miss him contrary to the crying man in the class.
 
I get more references now on the second watch. Like Roger quipping about Ernest Borgnine chasing Don down the alley with a switchblade.


Some period films that reminded me of Mad Men...



The Swimmer - Starts off uncomfortably cheery and colourful, almost like a period ad but gets darker and darker as it goes along. Pretty reminiscent of Mad Men's more experimental and surreal episodes.



La Notte - Don mentions to Bobbi Barrett that he enjoyed it and it comes as no suprise as Marcelo Mastroianni's character acts a lot like Don would have done in it. Basically about an unhappy married couple that comes to terms with things.



Seconds - Paranoia, new identity, unhappiness, California sa Eden. Strikingly beauiful film.



North by Northwest - Set in the same place as Mad Men season 1 and it's an enjoyable romp that Weiner has credited as an inluence.
 
Just finished season 6 on my re-watch, such a beautiful final scene where he shows the kids where he grew up. They always nail the music in those moments...


As long as Sally gets a happy ending in the show I'll be satisfied. (Bobby can feck off)
 
Just finished it. I've never seen a show anything like Mad Men. At numerous points through season 1, and maybe even 2, I thought about giving up on the show because the storyline seemed to be meandering, slow paced and aimless. I'm so glad I stuck with it though. It got better as it went along.

I actually found myself relating to Don quite a bit in the final season. More than I'd care to admit at times. Professionally, that sense of feeling like you've been sapped of the motivation and energy you once had for the job. Like a break and fresh scenery is needed to shake things up, recharge your batteries and inspire you.

More generally, the sense of not being quite sure what you're looking for in life. In the first season or 2, I'd mistaken that for the show being meandering and aimless. As the show went on it became clear to me that that's basically just how life can be. That scene in the final episode, where the guy breaks down talking to the group about his family and Don hugs him - That felt like a summary of the entire show and Don's life. The way he was talking about looking for 'it', but not being sure what 'it' is.

I love a show or film that talks to you on another level like that. I've not come across many that have done that to the same degree. I think I'll have to go back and watch it again in a few years.
 
ThierryHenry said:
Just finished season 6 on my re-watch, such a beautiful final scene where he shows the kids where he grew up. They always nail the music in those moments...


As long as Sally gets a happy ending in the show I'll be satisfied. (Bobby can feck off)
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I thought this song was a great choice too:

I ended up hooked on it for a good few months after that episode.
 
Just finished it. Decided to hold off on the second half of the final series so I could binge watch it when I had the chance. I think it's up there as my favourite TV series with The Sopranos. I think I must just like TV where you should probably hate the main character but end up loving them. Not totally sure about the ending but I enjoyed the final episodes greatly. I thought he was going to commit suicide when he went on his drive. Glad he didn't.
 


Probably my favourite use of music overall. Hamm looks like the perfect Bond as he walks away from the set. Plus the cliffhanger as Don reverts to his old ways. Apparently, Weiner considered using it for the first episode, but held back on it.
 
Ha, weird timing @Man of Leisure - was about to write something in here.

Just watched 'Waterloo' which means I'm finally ready for the new episodes, where I meant to be two months ago. Waterloo and The Strategy are perfect television, you get the wonderfully cathartic process of seeing Don and Peggy reconnect, and realising they care about each other exactly as much as you want them to. Things Mad Men does right #264; Lets you be completely, unashamedly soppy at the right moments, with years of build up perfectly preparing you for their emotional pay-offs.

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This is excellent also...


And this...feck me this seriously...
 
Was the music always from the year the episode was set? It felt like it moved with the times like that, and broadly matched my knowledge of the Beatles/ Stones/ Hendrix. May not have been so rigid with that idea though.
 
ThierryHenry said:
Ha, weird timing @Man of Leisure - was about to write something in here.

Just watched 'Waterloo' which means I'm finally ready for the new episodes, where I meant to be two months ago. Waterloo and The Strategy are perfect television, you get the wonderfully cathartic process of seeing Don and Peggy reconnect, and realising they care about each other exactly as much as you want them to. Things Mad Men does right #264; Lets you be completely, unashamedly soppy at the right moments, with years of build up perfectly preparing you for their emotional pay-offs.
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And Pete gets 10%!
 
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