Television Mad Men | SPOILERS

Fantastic ending to what is easily my favourite series of all time. Just an utter work of art.
 
Cheesy said:
I feel like the ending was suggestive of a lot more than that though: yes, Don's going back to New York and to advertising, but it felt like a redemption of sorts. He's not necessarily going to be a great person, but I do think it implied that he'll at least become a slightly better person, who's there for his kids when they need him, and who perhaps isn't as much of a cheater if he goes into future relationships.
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Don't agree. If he was to go back for his kids, he would have gone back as soon as he learnt about Betty irrespective of what she said.
 
That was awful, I feel like crying :(

Not awful bad, just awful sad. It really hit me just then that that is it!

The explanation of the Coke ad is good though, gives me some kind of positive outlook about it.

Best show ever made I think
 
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I think it was the show's creator who said they actually already had about 15 series finales. Well, they should have gone with one of those.
 
I thought he was gonna climb down the cliff face and the last thing you would see is his clothes against some rocks.
 
Roger and Don are right up there with my favorite characters in any show.

I was disappointed with Peggy's ending though. Wanted her to get her name on the door...
 
Duffy said:
I thought he was gonna climb down the cliff face and the last thing you would see is his clothes against some rocks.
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I definitely thought he was heading to the deep end after the phone conversation with Peggy.
 
Draper proved he was still the greatest ad man after all
 
I have a problem with Pete's ending because he didn't earn it as a character. He got the cushy job from Duck Ex Machina and Trudy's decision was completely against her character. Pete himself hadn't grown substantially enough to have that happiness either.

Also it was disappointing that Peggy and Stan had to get together. The show had spent a lot of time building their relationship as a strong and platonic one, someone they could both lean on. It felt a little cheapened.

On reflection I think Don's ending was perfect and I'd say the same for Roger, Betty and Sally. They each got what they deserved and grew into the characters the show had been building.

Joan's arc I'm still conflicted on. I like that she started her own business but I don't like the way Ken delivered it to her. Why would he go to her for film production? And I didn't like the end for Bruce Greenwood's character, it was too heavy on the "Joan don't need no man to save her". So while I think it ended up in the right place, it was an inelegant execution.
 
Archie Leach said:
I have a problem with Pete's ending because he didn't earn it as a character. He got the cushy job from Duck Ex Machina and Trudy's decision was completely against her character. Pete himself hadn't grown substantially enough to have that happiness either.

Also it was disappointing that Peggy and Stan had to get together. The show had spent a lot of time building their relationship as a strong and platonic one, someone they could both lean on. It felt a little cheapened.

On reflection I think Don's ending was perfect and I'd say the same for Roger, Betty and Sally. They each got what they deserved and grew into the characters the show had been building.

Joan's arc I'm still conflicted on. I like that she started her own business but I don't like the way Ken delivered it to her. Why would he go to her for film production? And I didn't like the end for Bruce Greenwood's character, it was too heavy on the "Joan don't need no man to save her". So while I think it ended up in the right place, it was an inelegant execution.
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On Peggy: I don't quite agree with the romantic vs. platonic stuff about her and Stan, because despite it being a tad rushed, I thought their reveal to one another was actually quite sweet. It also felt right for Peggy who finally realizes in a sense that her job isn't everything and that she can find happiness elsewhere also. The final shot in the montage was important in that respect, she's at her typewriter and Stan comes and puts his hand on her shoulders. She's not giving anything up.

Joan is one of the characters I'd come to dislike the most, but it turns out she was probably the most important one of the show as far as the 'feminist' agenda was concerned. In the very first episode, she told Peggy that if she played her cards right, she wouldn't be a secretary for very long hinting that she'd get married and would move to the country. It's the choice that's presented to her at the end by the Bruce Greenwood character and that she voluntarily dismisses, because she needs to work. I thought it was handled quite well and the way Bruce Greenwood left was perfect, he was a representation of that generation uneasy with women moving to a different role, even though he was a nice person. As for the job itself, I don't think Ken came to her initially with the idea of 'production' per se, but rather as an intermediary and then she just ran with the idea and made it something bigger.

Agree with the rest of your post, and upon reflection, I guess Pete's ending wasn't perfect. Though I thought it was interesting how he said goodbye to Peggy and how in the end, after spending years trying to be Don, he went completely in the opposite direction: getting back with his wife and moving away from NY. The part where he speaks to Peggy, telling her that in a few years people will brag about having worked with her, and that they wouldn't say the same about him (or something along those lines) was very good, cos it was a very nice line for Peggy and it also showed he definitely realized he wasn't Don (or Peggy), he didn't have that talent. But the whole getting back with Alison Brie may have been a bit rushed.
 
Yep :lol: The more I think about the episode as a whole the more I think it was the perfect ending. It left everyone going in new directions whether good or bad and had our main character finally find himself or the acceptance he had been searching for all series.

There was plenty of emotional moments looking back on it, particularly the calls between Don and Peggy/Betty. Happy with how they all went out.
 
Duffy said:
Yep :lol: The more I think about the episode as a whole the more I think it was the perfect ending.
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I think so too. I enjoyed the episode as a whole, but just the final scene itself, the meditation on the hilltop cutting to the Coke advert, is absolutely perfect for me the more I think about it.
 
Archie Leach said:
I have a problem with Pete's ending because he didn't earn it as a character. He got the cushy job from Duck Ex Machina and Trudy's decision was completely against her character. Pete himself hadn't grown substantially enough to have that happiness either.

Also it was disappointing that Peggy and Stan had to get together. The show had spent a lot of time building their relationship as a strong and platonic one, someone they could both lean on. It felt a little cheapened.

On reflection I think Don's ending was perfect and I'd say the same for Roger, Betty and Sally. They each got what they deserved and grew into the characters the show had been building.

Joan's arc I'm still conflicted on. I like that she started her own business but I don't like the way Ken delivered it to her. Why would he go to her for film production? And I didn't like the end for Bruce Greenwood's character, it was too heavy on the "Joan don't need no man to save her". So while I think it ended up in the right place, it was an inelegant execution.
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I sort of agree on Pete a little bit. The job part was fine, although Trudy going back to him did seem fairly against her character. Was surprised at that.

I didn't have any problems with Peggy and Stan getting together, but my problem was more that I found it rushed. They did have a good friendship, but Stan's certainly hinted at being fairly attracted to her on more than one occasion. It's something they should've built up a bit more though, instead of throwing it in out of nowhere.

I was okay with Joan's arc. With Richard, I kind of felt that it was less about Joan not needing a man, and more that she recognised that she had to be doing something with her life in order to be satisfied, even if that meant sacrificing a potential relationship. Richard seemed to represent someone who, while a decent enough guy, was clearly intimidated by the idea of his wife being more work-driven and earning more money than him. He was still idealising her as a person, unlike Stan with Peggy, who recognises her talent in work and actually seemed to appreciate her more for it.

Agree on the rest though: most other characters got perfect endings. Sally's arc in particular throughout the series was one of the strongest. It felt natural for her to assume a sort of motherly, caring role in the final couple of episodes.
 
Saw on Reddit the stats for who had the most lines over the series.

1. Don Draper - 7386
2. Peggy Olson - 3075
3. Pete Campbell - 2771
4. Roger Sterling - 2601
5. Betty Draper - 2168
6. Joan Holloway - 1879
7. Megan Calvet - 1250
8. Harry Crane - 920
9. Sally Draper - 894
10. Ken Cosgrove - 822

11. Lane Pryce - 618
12. Paul Kinsey - 511
13. Bert Cooper - 495
14. Ted Chaough - 494
15. Stan Rizzo - 491
16. Trudy Campbell - 444
17. Duck Phillips - 404
18. Henry Francis - 361
19. Salvatore Romano - 348
20. Michael Ginsberg - 278

21. Bobby Draper - 256
22. Freddie Rumsen - 236
23. Jim Cutler - 233
23. Faye Miller - 233
25. Glen Bishop - 205
26. Jane Siegel - 201
27. Abe Drexler - 194
28. Bob Benson - 185
28. Dawn Chambers - 185
30. Rachel Menken - 167

31. Francine Hanson - 165
32. Bobbie Barrett - 156
33. Dr. Greg Harris - 154
34. Sylvia Rosen - 145
35. Mona Sterling - 142
35. Marie Calvet - 142
37. Meredith - 133
38. Allison - 130
39. Lou Avery - 125
40. Stephanie - 124

41. Margaret Sterling - 116
41. Anna Draper - 116
43. Suzanne Farrell - 113
44. Arnold Rosen - 111
45. Richard Burghoff - 106
46. Jim Hobart - 101
47. Gail Holloway - 100
48. Gene Hofstadt - 99
49. Midge Daniels - 98
50. Conrad Hilton - 90
50. Father John Gill - 90

Top 10 for each Season:

SEASON 1

1. Don Draper - 1075
2. Pete Campbell - 443
3. Betty Draper - 437
4. Peggy Olson - 346
5. Roger Sterling - 326
6. Joan Holloway - 223
7. Paul Kinsey - 191
8. Rachel Menken - 159
9. Ken Cosgrove - 152
10. Harry Crane - 121

SEASON 2

1. Don Draper - 934
2. Betty Draper - 514
3. Peggy Olson - 394
4. Pete Campbell - 359
5. Roger Sterling - 321
6. Duck Phillips - 241
7. Harry Crane - 209
8. Joan Holloway - 208
9. Ken Cosgrove - 174
10. Bobbie Barrett - 156

SEASON 3

1. Don Draper - 911
2. Betty Draper - 519
3. Pete Campbell - 319
4. Roger Sterling - 314
5. Peggy Olson - 273
6. Lane Pryce - 205
7. Joan Harris - 164
8. Paul Kinsey - 127
9. Sally Draper - 118
10. Harry Crane - 114

SEASON 4

1. Don Draper - 1323
2. Peggy Olson - 579
3. Roger Sterling - 374
4. Pete Campbell - 341
5. Joan Harris - 301
6. Faye Miller - 233
7. Betty Francis - 217
8. Lane Pryce - 167
9. Sally Draper - 141
10. Megan Calvet - 139

SEASON 5

1. Don Draper - 987
2. Megan Draper - 544
3. Roger Sterling - 476
4. Pete Campbell - 474
5. Peggy Olson - 451
6. Joan Harris - 306
7. Lane Pryce - 246
8. Harry Crane - 201
9. Sally Draper - 170
10. Ken Cosgrove - 137

SEASON 6

1. Don Draper - 934
2. Pete Campbell - 453
3. Peggy Olson - 422
4. Ted Chaough - 362
5. Roger Sterling - 335
6. Megan Draper - 321
7. Joan Harris - 235
8. Betty Francis - 174
9. Bob Benson - 148
10. Sally Draper - 143

SEASON 7 (Part A)

1. Don Draper - 578
2. Peggy Olson - 303
3. Roger Sterling - 242
4. Megan Draper - 179
5. Pete Campbell - 165
6. Joan Harris - 145
7. Jim Cutler - 119
8. Sally Draper - 105
9. Lou Avery - 102
10. Betty Francis - 83

SEASON 7 (Part B)

1. Don Draper - 644
2. Peggy Olson - 307
3. Joan Harris - 297
4. Pete Campbell - 217
5. Roger Sterling - 213
6. Stan Rizzo - 120
7. Betty Francis - 106
8. Richard Burghoff - 105
9. Sally Draper - 88
10. Ken Cosgrove - 81

SEASON 7 (Total)

1. Don Draper - 1222
2. Peggy Olson - 610
3. Roger Sterling - 455
4. Joan Harris - 442
5. Pete Campbell - 382
6. Megan Draper - 246
7. Sally Draper - 193
8. Stan Rizzo - 190
9. Betty Francis - 188
10. Jim Cutler - 119
 
It's a pretty cool list of figures, to be fair.
 
I thought the last series they were clutching at straws to make it work. The characters became the deals rather than working as deal makers. They all suddenly became introspective in scenes that generated a major anticlimax in their rush to get through to the end.

There seemed to be an assumption that's there's no life after an acquisition, as if the spark of ingenuity is suddenly extinguished with a takeover. There is an absurdity in top business and the flotsam often get to the top just as much as the good people but that crowd were more than bizarre. Large American corporations were heavily bureaucratic in the early 70s but mid-way through the decade they were already breaking away from their old past. The leading firms in that break away were the marketing consultants so I was surprised at how ponderous the big firm was in its dealings with them. Sexism and racism were major issues top New York firms from the 60s and we're never really explored. Disappointed but not unexpected ending.
 
Stretford End Phil said:
I thought the last series they were clutching at straws to make it work. The characters became the deals rather than working as deal makers. They all suddenly became introspective in scenes that generated a major anticlimax in their rush to get through to the end.

There seemed to be an assumption that's there's no life after an acquisition, as if the spark of ingenuity is suddenly extinguished with a takeover. There is an absurdity in top business and the flotsam often get to the top just as much as the good people but that crowd were more than bizarre. Large American corporations were heavily bureaucratic in the early 70s but mid-way through the decade they were already breaking away from their old past. The leading firms in that break away were the marketing consultants so I was surprised at how ponderous the big firm was in its dealings with them. Sexism and racism were major issues top New York firms from the 60s and we're never really explored. Disappointed but not unexpected ending.
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What?! Racism was looked at (maybe a bit superficially) and sexism was maybe the core element of the whole show!

By the way @R.N7, did you enjoy the finale? Don't think you've posted on it.
 
Stretford End Phil said:
I thought the last series they were clutching at straws to make it work. The characters became the deals rather than working as deal makers. They all suddenly became introspective in scenes that generated a major anticlimax in their rush to get through to the end.

There seemed to be an assumption that's there's no life after an acquisition, as if the spark of ingenuity is suddenly extinguished with a takeover. There is an absurdity in top business and the flotsam often get to the top just as much as the good people but that crowd were more than bizarre. Large American corporations were heavily bureaucratic in the early 70s but mid-way through the decade they were already breaking away from their old past. The leading firms in that break away were the marketing consultants so I was surprised at how ponderous the big firm was in its dealings with them. Sexism and racism were major issues top New York firms from the 60s and we're never really explored. Disappointed but not unexpected ending.
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Say what? I don't think you've posted about the right show.:wenger:
 
Rooney in Dublin said:
What?! Racism was looked at (maybe a bit superficially) and sexism was maybe the core element of the whole show!

By the way @R.N7, did you enjoy the finale? Don't think you've posted on it.
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Duffy said:
Say what? I don't think you've posted about the right show.:wenger:
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There's a huge difference between a few cases of sexual harassment and sexism. The deliberate means to prevent women from succeeding. Black issues in American corporate life were certainly never touched on and wider largely racism ignored. When you have observed a group of corporate chiefs over dinner, referring to their families suffering in Auschwitz but then calling the waiter a N**** you might have an idea of the complexity of racism in American business.

The story was actually about the American business model and how it traversed the age of Kennedy's Camelot to the time after Nixon. It showed how safe that model was and remained the solid superstructure of American society. The series never really challenged core American values.
 
Stretford End Phil said:
The story was actually about the American business model and how it traversed the age of Kennedy's Camelot to the time after Nixon. It showed how safe that model was and remained the solid superstructure of American society. The series never really challenged core American values.
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Mostly it was about the complicated personal life of a philandering advertising executive.
 
Stretford End Phil said:
There's a huge difference between a few cases of sexual harassment and sexism. The deliberate means to prevent women from succeeding. Black issues in American corporate life were certainly never touched on and wider largely racism ignored. When you have observed a group of corporate chiefs over dinner, referring to their families suffering in Auschwitz but then calling the waiter a N**** you might have an idea of the complexity of racism in American business.

The story was actually about the American business model and how it traversed the age of Kennedy's Camelot to the time after Nixon. It showed how safe that model was and remained the solid superstructure of American society. The series never really challenged core American values.
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Ok, the very first scene of the very first episode has Don at a dinner table being served by a black waiter and he asks him what he smokes. When the waiter answers, his boss comes over and apologises and asks Don if his employee is bothering him. This is the first of numerous instances throughout the series where the racism of the time was looked at (the black lift attendant and Pete's aggressive conversation about TV's is another early one that springs to mind) so to say it was never touched on is absurd and proved wrong in the very first scene of the show.

As for sexism, it is one of the main themes of the show, about how Peggy and Joan struggle to be taken seriously, how wives are treated. Hell, in almost every episode women are made to look useful for only one of being a mistress, being a secretary, being a mother or being an object that ad men may throw at a client to help seal a deal.

The show was more heavily based around the themes of identity, acceptance in society, self acceptance, death, family, race, religion, sexism and culture than it was "the American business model".
 
Duffy said:
Ok, the very first scene of the very first episode has Don at a dinner table being served by a black waiter and he asks him what he smokes. When the waiter answers, his boss comes over and apologises and asks Don if his employee is bothering him. This is the first of numerous instances throughout the series where the racism of the time was looked at (the black lift attendant and Pete's aggressive conversation about TV's is another early one that springs to mind) so to say it was never touched on is absurd and proved wrong in the very first scene of the show.

As for sexism, it is one of the main themes of the show, about how Peggy and Joan struggle to be taken seriously, how wives are treated. Hell, in almost every episode women are made to look useful for only one of being a mistress, being a secretary, being a mother or being an object that ad men may throw at a client to help seal a deal.

The show was more heavily based around the themes of identity, acceptance in society, self acceptance, death, family, race, religion, sexism and culture than it was "the American business model".
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Well obviously you're a fan whereas I am not having lived iamong senior U.S. corporate life for a long period. I thought it was tame, moralistic and plastic; it was about securing the business model and the ethos of money which has been on a shaky footing in the last decade. Sexual stereotypes and harassment isn't sexism! Where was the counterweight of the feminist movement that piled through that decade - Joan running her own business in her apartment, give me a break. Racism, really? Actually moments of race difference and pretty tepid too! I referred to an incident in my past, portray those people around the table and maybe we might get closer to the truth of corporate life in America. If you want to know why it's about the business model, walk into Allstate's corporate offices in Northbrook, Chicago and then visit Bloomburg's offices in New York.

Clearly we're too far apart to ever find an accommodation on this topic.
 
@Stretford End Phil

I would say the subtext of the show is the hollowness of the American dream that was sold to the public through capitalism and consumerism in that era.

Here you have the engineers of that dream, living that dream, but they all happen to be personally broken and inadequate to a lesser or greater degree.

There was no gold at the end of the rainbow.
 
Classical Mechanic said:
@Stretford End Phil

I would say the subtext of the show is the hollowness of the American dream that was sold to the public through capitalism and consumerism in that era.

Here you have the engineers of that dream, living that dream, but they all happen to be personally broken and inadequate to a lesser or greater degree.

There was no gold at the end of the rainbow.
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So you missed the Coca Cola song?:lol: Seriously, read a few quotes by Warren Buffet as to the power and longevity of Coca Cola Company in American society and its place in the business model.
 
Stretford End Phil said:
Well obviously you're a fan whereas I am not having lived iamong senior U.S. corporate life for a long period. I thought it was tame, moralistic and plastic; it was about securing the business model and the ethos of money which has been on a shaky footing in the last decade. Sexual stereotypes and harassment isn't sexism! Where was the counterweight of the feminist movement that piled through that decade - Joan running her own business in her apartment, give me a break. Racism, really? Actually moments of race difference and pretty tepid too! I referred to an incident in my past, portray those people around the table and maybe we might get closer to the truth of corporate life in America. If you want to know why it's about the business model, walk into Allstate's corporate offices in Northbrook, Chicago and then visit Bloomburg's offices in New York.

Clearly we're too far apart to ever find an accommodation on this topic.
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Well if you're not a fan why come in the thread to go on about how it's so different from your office job. What has this fictional program about an ad man trying to find his true place in the world got to do with your job? :lol:

The show was not about America primarily. America was not the focus of the show, a single work place and a particular group of characters were, so why would it have to include every form of racial and sexual prejudice that happened at the time for it not to be "tame, moralistic and plastic". In your view?

Yeah I think we are a long way apart in that I seem to be able to enjoy something for what it is, a well written well made television show. I'm also able to avoid picking holes in a show because it doesn't fit into what I think it is supposed to mean.

It's like me turning around and saying Breaking Bad wasn't about a man doing what he has to, before his death, to provide for his family - actually, because my wife is a teacher and I drink with a guy who is a teacher, I'm aware that Breaking Bad was actually about teachers and how teachers are the backbone to our society. Walter White as a teacher was able to out think everyone to become Heisenberg and truely show what level of power, knowledge provides us with.

Now, if you'll excuse me I'm going to find the Breaking Bad thread and go and post an extensive diatribe (yeah I know fancy words too) about the show because it was a tame, moralistic and plastic representation of what teachers represent.
 
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