Nonsense. What if the ship transforms itself into a submarine?
LVG Out Thread | BBC: Sacked!
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Nonsense. What if the ship transforms itself into a submarine?
But I thought we should be winning the league? Have we shifted the goalposts to compete? Plus, we're ignoring the point van Gaal made about the TV cash. Premier League clubs now have no incentive to sell, unless the player wants to leave. There is a reason why sell Kagawa for 11 million and buy Blind for 15. We're 2 players from being among the top 10 teams in Europe. Rebuilding takes time.
Oh so it wasn't the "weakest it's ever been" in 2011-12 when the two best teams dropped to the Europa League?
2012-13 when there were no English teams in the last 8 if memory serves right?
2013-14 when as poor as we were, we were the only English club in the last 8?
In each of those years, the big teams dropped points. This isn't a recent occurrence.
What's the option(s), though? Although 'another' top 4 is hard to swallow, I'd take it over sacking LvG mid-season just to give it to someone who are not a long-term solution, or just a novice.
Top 4 still gives us advantage to draw better players next season. And it will give a better platform for the next manager to work with.
But if a manager like Pep or Simeone is available soon, we should grab him right away.
Top 4 still gives us advantage to draw better players next season. And it will give a better platform for the next manager to work with.
But if a manager like Pep or Simeone is available soon, we should grab him right away.
If our ship was malleable enough to transform we wouldn't be in this mess in the first place. The problem with our ship is that it's too rigid and not prepared to change.
We can't apply the logic of Sir Alex's tenure here with that of another manager in different circumstances in a different era. Fergie wouldn't get the same time here today, admittedly, but the chances of a manager who struggles at first suddenly turning out to be an unprecedented success are quite slim. Just because it happens with one manager doesn't mean it'll happen with another.
Especially when LVG is incredibly experienced. He's not new to football, and isn't anywhere near as young as Fergie was. He's incredibly stubborn, and sticks to his own ideals; a great thing when it works, but apparently not particularly great at the moment. He's not going to change or adapt what he's doing, which is a massive concern.
It's also worth taking into account his own future plans. He's unlikely to be here beyond 2017. He's not going to be a long-term option anyway. If we don't feel he's doing well enough, sacking him is hardly going to be some betrayal of our ideals.
I don't particularly see it as us betraying our values anyway. Fergie lasted a long time here, but the chances of finding someone like that again are incredibly slim. I don't think people's problems with LVG are that he's against our supposed values either; it's just that he gets us to play boring, dire football and isn't getting great results from it. We wouldn't be overly bothered with it if we were winning, and playing some decent stuff. Hell, some people are worried about us staying too close to our values, with the possible future appointment of Giggs.
We don't drown?
Let's be honest, there were two reasons we won the league that year: Sir Alex and van Persie. We had no midfield at all. It didn't matter for Sir Alex because he was a genius. It was always going to be a period of rebuilding after he left, but more so because of the holes in that squad. Forget 2008, we had a better team in 2011. Chelsea this year, on paper, they're one of the best squads in he league, which makes their season even more bonkers. No way we had that 13-14.
The stat was for the 12/13 and team and it was 25 players vs 22 in any event because you forgot to list Fletcher and Powell. The reason why it's not relevant is because although numbers do matter it's about the balance of the squad and the personnel within it too. Ferguson was a master at rotating and also understood the physicality of the league in a way that I think van Gaal has underestimated. He's bought in players such as Martial and Memphis who have been under pressure straight away to perform because we let go more experienced members of the squad. In the defence Smalling is our oldest player at 26, we needed to have a player in their late 20's/early 30's to offset having so many young players.
And by the way, even in that season we won the league there were suggestions that Ferguson should have bought another midfielder but because we had the best player in the league in van Persie, we were able to compensate for whatever deficiencies we had in midfield and defence and so we ended up winning lots of games 4-3, 3-2, 2-1 etc.
Edit: That's not to excuse Moyes by the way, we still should have made top 4. Also, Valencia is older than Smalling to be fair but Smalling is still our oldest centre back.
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You're trying to twist my argument now. My belief that the PL is the poorest it's been for a long time isn't solely based on CL performance alone, which can be a poor way to look at it. CL performance is a brilliant indicator, yes, but it's not the only way to look at it.
I'd say our 2012-12 side and City's 2011-12 one are far stronger than the sides in the league now, despite each's obvious problems, but they didn't perform well in Europe that year. Not the sole factor, and I didn't claim that it was.
I'm not "moving the goalposts" either. Our aim should, at the very least, be to compete for the title. Impressing in Europe should also be a goal though, and the excuse of TV cash isn't valid. If we're in a better financial situation, we should be trying to take advantage of that in order to make some shrewd deals. It doesn't cover up the fact that we've been massively wasteful at times.
I said a while ago I had reached the point where I wouldn't be bothered if he got the sack.
Now I'm at the point where I wish this is his last season.
We won't win the league under LVG.
Now I'm at the point where I wish this is his last season.
We won't win the league under LVG.
Willian aside their midfield has showed itself to be garbage tho......when city play with yaya in CM, they too are pretty garbage.....I dont see a great midfield in this league and I'd still have the Tiger, Schneiderlin and Herrera as the best midfield 3 in the country.
as much as I want him gone, dont think we should rush our next appointment. We must have a plan for what we our long term plan for the future is, and allign such a search with it. We are at a critical point in our recent history.
If we can get a proper caretaker, that would be great. I dont really want Giggs though. Chelsea have done that 3 times quite well, and are the most s
imilar to us in terms of objectives.
If we can get a proper caretaker, that would be great. I dont really want Giggs though. Chelsea have done that 3 times quite well, and are the most s
imilar to us in terms of objectives.
It's not a question of a mere two players: it's the six or seven that he chose to sell with nary any thought for the consequences, it's his repeated mismanagement of attacking minded players such as Herrera and Di Maria.
This isn't a simple disagreement of footballing philosophy, rather it is that Van Gaal has shown himself to be damned incompetent. Player acquisition, squad management, tactics, motivation, errors can be found in nearly every important area for which he is responsible.
Which players did we let go that have proven us wrong? Players like little Pea that had years here and did'nt impact enough, RVP and Di Maria? who?
The stat he posted in the other thread was about the 12/13 team when he said 23 vs. 22, but he missed off a couple of players. As I've just said though, the balance of the squad is important too so it's not just a case looking purely at the numbers. When you think about the experience we've lost in Ferdinand, Vidic, Evra, Fletcher, Evans, Nani, van Persie, Giggs and Scholes who've all left within the last two/three years, then even if you accept that some/most of them weren't up to the job anymore that loss has to be accounted for when you refresh the squad and it hasn't been done.
I think that's right. There are problems at every turn it seems.
What will do for him though is the players. They just don't seem to get what he wants them to do and I wouldn't be at all surprised if a lot of them weren't happy with him in charge.
Unless you have a situation where every player believes the manager will outlast them, that they will be sold before the manager is sacked, you will always have a team which sways in the wind. Perhaps the greatest of them all at the moment old Maureen is testament to this.
When will the "only x points off the top" argument end? My feelings were exactly the same even when we were top.
It's an insurmountable problem if the players doubt the manager. As it stands they just look devoid of any enthusiasm. The players aren't of course immune from criticism, but its the beginning of the end if indeed he has lost the dressing room. Van Gaal won't be backed to move a load on and bring a load in with 8 months left on his contract and retirement looming.
players have to have a look at themselves but you don't get ride of 20 you get rid of 1 and at this time it's LVG.
The more I watch Leicester City....I repeat LEICESTER CITY, the more I get pissed off with van Gaal and his bullshit philosophy ! And before all the van Gaal admirers spout the usual drivel about what he's done for the club (which by the way is nothing at all), you only need to take a look at what's happening at Leicester.
Sure, everybody's waiting for the wheels to fall off of course, but there ain't no signs of it happening yet and anyway by then they'll probably be firmly ensconced in the top four, probably at the expense of United. Oh, the irony !
I was firmly in the "give him till the end of the season" camp, but when I see what Ranieri's done in 4 months as opposed to what van Gaal's done in 18, I just want him gone, gone, gone.....GONE !
Another attacking display from Leicester from the 1st to the 95th minute and 2 great goals against the Champions.....it ain't rocket science !!
Sure, everybody's waiting for the wheels to fall off of course, but there ain't no signs of it happening yet and anyway by then they'll probably be firmly ensconced in the top four, probably at the expense of United. Oh, the irony !
I was firmly in the "give him till the end of the season" camp, but when I see what Ranieri's done in 4 months as opposed to what van Gaal's done in 18, I just want him gone, gone, gone.....GONE !
Another attacking display from Leicester from the 1st to the 95th minute and 2 great goals against the Champions.....it ain't rocket science !!
Indeed.
I think players do need to look at what's going wrong.
That said, if you don't believe in what your boss is doing its hard to be enthusiastic about it. That's the same in any job. They look like they're not enjoying their football as it stands.
yep pretty easy to see. goals change games , and increase the vibe going through the team. maybe if united strat scoring the party starts?
The wheels might very well fall off for Leicester but they play the right way - they love to attack and they've got pace. It's good to watch.
agree. LVG needs to just go!!!!
This is true to a certain extent but if they are under instructions and genuinly fear their manager if they disobey/make a mistake then what can they do, they have to what they are told.
Fact is he's made all the offensive players look poor, I'm even doubting my writing Rooney off atm due to this.
He has improved Smalling, and made a good defender out of Blind but that's about it.
I was thinking to myself earlier that our next managerial appointment will either get us back on top, or we'll actually turn into to Liverpool. Regardless of whether LvG sees out his contract or not, I don't see him getting us to where we (should) aspire to be, and it will be up to the next hire to take us there. If that appointment fails, we'll be three managers and potentially five seasons or more in "the wilderness".
Interesting times ahead.
Interesting times ahead.
for me, Jose for me is proof that keeping a manager doesnt necessarily equate to things getting better.
In short , with Moyes and Jose have shown, the 'give him time' argument is largely bs. There has to be signs , and for me the signs point to one thing.
In short , with Moyes and Jose have shown, the 'give him time' argument is largely bs. There has to be signs , and for me the signs point to one thing.
It took City a billion or so pounds and a fair few managers to get a team that wins silverware and they still don't dominate the EPL. If we keep persisting and spending club money to get the right players and eventually find the right manager we will get back to being back to winning ways in time, but it won't be Fergie domination.
LVG seems to still have the respect of most players in the squad though. Not to add we're 4th, not 14th. Jose hasn't earned the same patience, whereas as long as LVG can keep us in the top 4 and mount a decent title challenge don't see the reason to sack him before the end of the season when we'd be short on options and risk unsettling the squad. Wait until the end of the season and sign Pep.
Edit: 16th* My bad
Watching Leicester play such fantastic, fast, attacking football, just makes me hate the man even more.
He couldn't get a team playing like that if his life depended on it.
He couldn't get a team playing like that if his life depended on it.
LVG seems to still have the respect of most players in the squad though. Not to add we're 4th, not 14th. Jose hasn't earned the same patience, whereas as long as LVG can keep us in the top 4 and mount a decent title challenge don't see the reason to sack him before the end of the season when we'd be short on options and risk unsettling the squad. Wait until the end of the season and sign Pep.
Edit: 16th* My bad
He won the Premiership just a few Months back. He is a proven winner.
He won the Premiership just a few back. He is a proven winner.
I was referring to this season in particular. What he's won in the past doesn't discount from the fact that his team is fighting relegation this season, whilst also doing nothing to prove he can turn it around. The same way LVG isn't judged on his past accomplishments, neither should Jose. LVG hasn't completely lost it and have us fighting relegation though, being the obvious difference. Doubt Chelsea really care for what he's done in the past, at this stage, to be fair.
LVG seems to still have the respect of most players in the squad though. Not to add we're 4th, not 14th. Jose hasn't earned the same patience, whereas as long as LVG can keep us in the top 4 and mount a decent title challenge don't see the reason to sack him before the end of the season when we'd be short on options and risk unsettling the squad. Wait until the end of the season and sign Pep.
Edit: 16th* My bad
1 point from safety !
You completely missed the point I was raising. I know how badly Chelsea are doing and it doesnt suprise me.LVG seems to still have the respect of most players in the squad though. Not to add we're 4th, not 14th. Jose hasn't earned the same patience, whereas as long as LVG can keep us in the top 4 and mount a decent title challenge don't see the reason to sack him before the end of the season when we'd be short on options and risk unsettling the squad. Wait until the end of the season and sign Pep.
Edit: 16th* My bad
My point is that its been evident for a while that Jose had lost it. Giving him more time like everyone suggested hasnt changed that.
we've got 4 wins in 14, and have been getting worse resultwise not better. (see our progression from dour football to being seriously outplayed by weaker teams recently). Our good start has helped us be where we are. Its naive to think that time will automatically make us better like some people like to constantly repeat. It was the same with Moyes, even more time didnt help there either.
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Jose did it just last season at Chelsea with the same squad and same club. Hence why he has credit in the bank and not been sacked yet. It's bit like Klopp at Dortmund last season.
LVG did it years ago with different clubs. He has no credit in the bank at United. Even ignoring the money spent argument.
Honest question, how is he still in charge right now?
I agree. Not with a gun to his head.
Probably something to do with New York Stock Exchange rules. He is going though, its just a matter of when.
I ignored Powell and Fletcher because they didn't play many games. if my memory is right, Powell went on loan after the Wigan game and Fletcher was recovering from his illness. If we're to include them, we'll have to include Varela, Borthwick-Jackson and the like, especially since they're going to feature in more games than Fletcher and Powell did in 12/13. While I do take your point on balance and agree that van Gaal has underestimated the requirements of this league, this thing is most often brought up in the context of our injuries. Even back in the summer most of us were worried about numbers in the context of a seemingly inevitable injury crisis, not in terms of personnel. It was only towards the end when it looked like we weren't going to sign a senior striker that we began worrying about the attack. In any case, I agree with you that the attack is unbalanced. While I sort of see where you're coming from, I don't quite see Smalling being our oldest defender as a bad thing, certainly not worth focusing on when we've got more serious deficiencies upfront.
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