LVG Out Thread | BBC: Sacked!

Do you want LVG sacked?

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K2K said:
Of course the press love having digs at us, but it's insulting to think that the fans are having a go at Van Gaal simply because of the media.

I have questions about LvG, but find most of the English media unbearable.
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Exactly.
If we were getting all of our problems from the British Press then I would have any as I don't read it. I have eyes and a mind enough of my own to make up my own mind.
I wouldn't mind being bored if we were winning but being bored and at best getting a draw is beyond a joke. In the last 2 matches we haven't even gotten a draw. Some people on here seem to think it's okay being terrible because nobody else is doing much better then we are. I don't agree. I think we need to look at the other super clubs as the mark we should be aspiring to, it's where we were 5 or so years ago it's where we need to be again.
 
Cheesy said:
In what has been an incredibly poor Premier League season thus far. We've also barely scored 20 goals despite the fact that we're nearing the halfway point of the season, we're out of the CL despite being given a manageable group, and have a manager in charge who is employing an incredibly boring style, is stubborn despite being mostly ineffective, and has us in a run of poor form.

For what it's worth, I do think there are some overreactions in that plenty of posters will be a lot more content should we, say, win our next three games, but the reasons for wanting LVG gone aren't that ridiculous.
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People have been saying this every year since 2009. It's always a poor league. It didn't have a basis in fact back in 2009, ditto today.

Just because I want us to stick with van Gaal doesn't mean I'm content with our atrocious play going forward. We're dependent on 20 year old and a shite Wayne Rooney. That's on van Gaal of course, but the man cannot address all the deficiencies in our squad in 2 windows.

A better team than this one dropped into the Europa League. This isn't as much of a disgrace as it is made out to be.

Of course it's ridiculous to sack a manager who got us back in Europe after 16 games into his second season. Especially when we're a grand total of 4 points off the top, whatever the quality of the league. We aren't going to win the league, but that was apparent from the beginning. I can even understand people wanting van Gaal to go if we end up 4th at the end of this season. But I'm sorry, this moanfest we've seen since Wolfsburg is premature, knee-jerk and laughable.
 
redindian1987 said:
Dear God this entire thread is embarrassing.

We're 4 points off the top and people are throwing their toys out of the pram as if we're 13th.
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Let's actually look at the results since October and how we played:

Arsenal (A) 3-0 loss, totally outplayed and Arsenal in second gear for 70 minutes
Everton (A) 3-0 win, fair enough we comfortably won and a good result
CSKA (A) 1-1 draw, pretty boring but not a terrible result
City (H) 0-0 draw, another boring display against a weakened City side
'Boro (H) 0-0 draw, dreadful performance overall and knocked out on pens
Palace (A) 0-0 draw, absolute snooze fest once again
CSKA (H) 1-0 win, scraped home and could have easily drawn if not for De Gea and Smalling
West Brom (H) 2-0 win, standard win but still not too exciting
Watford (A) 1-2 win, good last minute winner but slightly lucky
PSV (H) 0-0 draw, woeful play and a result that cost us dear
Leicester (A) 1-1 draw, not an awful result but very little in the way of chances again
West Ham (H) 0-0 draw, failed to score yet again and though we created chances they had the better ones
Wolfsburg (A) 3-2 loss, need I say more
Bournemouth (A) 2-1 loss, looked pretty poor from the highlights I've seen

So that's 3 wins in 14, with one game where you could really say we played well (Everton). We're out of the Champions League, the style of football is awful and we're lucky that the standard of the league is so poor this year because most years we wouldn't be anywhere near top four.

Edit: It's 3 in 12 I forgot the CSKA win.
 
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Cheesy said:
We can do it in a similar style to LVG's management. Have lots of guys on hang gliders with leaflets, but instead of dropping them onto the pitch, they just pass the leaflets among each other and never actually do anything with them.
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:lol:
 
redindian1987 said:
People have been saying this every year since 2009. It's always a poor league. It didn't have a basis in fact back in 2009, ditto today.

Just because I want us to stick with van Gaal doesn't mean I'm content with our atrocious play going forward. We're dependent on 20 year old and a shite Wayne Rooney. That's on van Gaal of course, but the man cannot address all the deficiencies in our squad in 2 windows.

A better team than this one dropped into the Europa League. This isn't as much of a disgrace as it is made out to be.

Of course it's ridiculous to sack a manager who got us back in Europe after 16 games into his second season. Especially when we're a grand total of 4 points off the top, whatever the quality of the league. We aren't going to win the league, but that was apparent from the beginning. I can even understand people wanting van Gaal to go if we end up 4th at the end of this season. But I'm sorry, this moanfest we've seen since Wolfsburg is premature, knee-jerk and laughable.
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The league is quite evidently poorer at the top now than it was in 2009. The Chelsea double winning side of 2010 would sweep the league aside right now. There is no obvious contender for winning the title, with all sides in contention regularly slipping up. Hence, we remain quite close to the top...and quite close to mid-table as well.

I don't care about that better team dropping into the Europa League. It's irrelevant now. It was widely condemned back then, because it was woeful, but at that time we were at least regularly progressing to the latter stages. Right now, we're looking at our 2015-16 CL performance, and it was dreadful. Certainly enough to consider re-evaluating LVG's position.

I don't see why simply being near the top of the table guarantees a manager immunity when you consider the number of laughable mistakes and decisions LVG has been making. We're dire in front of goal, and don't look anywhere near being a title side at the moment. In Moyes' year here, he wasn't much further of the title after the halfway point of 19 games. It didn't mean he wasn't worthy of being sacked, though.

I personally would give LVG to the end of the season, and see how he's done by that point. But I can completely understand why others want him gone now, and it's hardly a recent development.
 
redindian1987 said:
That debate can be had at a rational point of time, not after 16 games when we're still in 3 competitions.
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Would the rational time be when we are out of the FA cup, and when we are struggling to get top 4? Would it not be better to preempt this before it happens? because unless LvG actually changes something then it will.

Personally I'd see how the Christmas games go, if we show improvement and progression in our play then give him some cash in January and press on, If it's more of the same then something imho has to be done.
 
Amethyst said:
So that's 3 wins in 14, with one game where could really say we played well (Everton). We're out of the Champions League, the style of football is awful and we're lucky that the standard of the league is so poor this year because most years we wouldn't be anywhere near top four.
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What you've ignored is the fact that there are games in there against teams which have gotten a result against the "big teams". Yes, we were pathetic in Europe but our league form is not that dissimilar to most teams in the league. If we were to sack managers everytime the team had a bit of a shite run, we'd look for a manager every six months.

I'm not in any way absolving van Gaal of any blame when it comes to our attacking situation but the fact is this: so far, we're hovering around where we want to be. That may not be the case come May. If so, I'll personally scream the loudest for van Gaal to go.
 
redindian1987 said:
People have been saying this every year since 2009. It's always a poor league. It didn't have a basis in fact back in 2009, ditto today.

Just because I want us to stick with van Gaal doesn't mean I'm content with our atrocious play going forward. We're dependent on 20 year old and a shite Wayne Rooney. That's on van Gaal of course, but the man cannot address all the deficiencies in our squad in 2 windows.

A better team than this one dropped into the Europa League. This isn't as much of a disgrace as it is made out to be.

Of course it's ridiculous to sack a manager who got us back in Europe after 16 games into his second season. Especially when we're a grand total of 4 points off the top, whatever the quality of the league. We aren't going to win the league, but that was apparent from the beginning. I can even understand people wanting van Gaal to go if we end up 4th at the end of this season. But I'm sorry, this moanfest we've seen since Wolfsburg is premature, knee-jerk and laughable.
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But that's the problem, he has created some of our deficiencies by recklessly selling / loaning too many players without having sufficient back up.

I am happy to see some of those players go, don't get me wrong, but he has to take some responsibility for the construction of the current squad.

4 points off the top doesn't really tell the whole story, we aren't convincing in any game, and the way we play genuinely makes me feel every game we go into is 50:50 (unless we score an early goal).

It's shit and he needs to go.
 
redindian1987 said:
That debate can be had at a rational point of time, not after 16 games when we're still in 3 competitions.
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I'll just point out that it's not hard to be "in 3 competitions" at this point of the season. We're in the Europa League because we couldn't qualify from our CL group. Fair enough, we aren't around Chelsea right now in the Premier League, so of course we're "in" that. The FA Cup hasn't even started for Premier League teams. Do you see us winning any of them?
 
C'est Moi Cantona said:
Would the rational time be when we are out of the FA cup, and when we are struggling to get top 4? Would it not be better to preempt this before it happens? because unless LvG actually changes something then it will.

Personally I'd see how the Christmas games go, if we show improvement and progression in our play then give him some cash in January and press on, If it's more of the same then something imho has to be done.
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I said that when this thread first started.
 
redindian1987 said:
What you've ignored is the fact that there are games in there against teams which have gotten a result against the "big teams". Yes, we were pathetic in Europe but our league form is not that dissimilar to most teams in the league. If we were to sack managers everytime the team had a bit of a shite run, we'd look for a manager every six months.

I'm not in any way absolving van Gaal of any blame when it comes to our attacking situation but the fact is this: so far, we're hovering around where we want to be. That may not be the case come May. If so, I'll personally scream the loudest for van Gaal to go.
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I'm actually not van Gaal out as it happens, but if he was sacked tomorrow I wouldn't be that unhappy if for example Ancelotti agreed to manage us. I can't believe you can be so naive as to why people are calling for the sack, I don't blame people at all for wanting him out given the money spent and the mistakes made.

You say we're dependant on Rooney and Martial, but whose decision was it to get rid of van Persie and Hernandez without bringing in suitable replacements? Whose decision was it to sell Rafael and Evans whilst loaning Blackett to then only buy in Darmian?
 
Cheesy said:
The league is quite evidently poorer at the top now than it was in 2009. The Chelsea double winning side of 2010 would sweep the league aside right now. There is no obvious contender for winning the title, with all sides in contention regularly slipping up. Hence, we remain quite close to the top...and quite close to mid-table as well.

I don't care about that better team dropping into the Europa League. It's irrelevant now. It was widely condemned back then, because it was woeful, but at that time we were at least regularly progressing to the latter stages. Right now, we're looking at our 2015-16 CL performance, and it was dreadful. Certainly enough to consider re-evaluating LVG's position.

I don't see why simply being near the top of the table guarantees a manager immunity when you consider the number of laughable mistakes and decisions LVG has been making. We're dire in front of goal, and don't look anywhere near being a title side at the moment. In Moyes' year here, he wasn't much further of the title after the halfway point of 19 games. It didn't mean he wasn't worthy of being sacked, though.

I personally would give LVG to the end of the season, and see how he's done by that point. But I can completely understand why others want him gone now, and it's hardly a recent development.
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On paper, what Chelsea have today or what City have is of the same quality as that Chelsea side. On paper, what Arsenal have today is of similar quality to what we had in 2011. At the end of it all, we know who is most likely to win the league, just as we did back then. It's just that the competition has increased. When was the last time a team like West Ham got results against all of the "big teams"?

We came 3rd in a group consisting of Basle, Benfica and some Romanian team I can't even remember. If the line about "embarrassment" and the like is to be given credence, surely that was a bigger embarrassment! Or when we dropped out all together in 2004-05? If people could survive the embarrassment then, surely then can survive a team in transition not playing to its potential. If dropping out of the Champions League is going to be worth the sack, I'm sorry, as time passes on, there will be times when we won't even make the Champions League if England gets 3 places. What are we going to do then? Have a new manager every year and be in a perpetual state of transition?

Surely, what we want at the end of the day is to be as close to the eventual winners as possible. The closer we get to the top, the more successful our season becomes. Doesn't it follow that ultimately our position in the league will determine van Gaal's future?

And in that season, we were right to not blow our tops until the moment it was clear that Moyes was clueless. We didn't sack him after 6 months just because things were difficult! The moment we were tonked 4-1 by City it was apparent it was going to be a long season.
 
argh, I hate this "we're only X off the top" thing, does anyone truly believe we are in the title race? It's beyond optimism, we are fighting for 4th, we're lucky to still be 4th because Liverpool and Spurs drop points whenever we do - that won't last. We, on the other hand will continue to drop points through 0-0 draws and tight losses, as long as LVG continues with his current approach and given how stubborn he is, that's unlikely to change. If we are lucky with injuries and go on a run we will finish 4th, maybe 3rd but no higher, otherwise we will finish 5th or 6th. The only reason we are sticking with LVG is because right now we are considered to be in with a chance to win the league and 4th looks safe to most... but when we fall out of the top 4 then people will start to ask "will Man Utd finish in the top 4?" and then some more realistic expectations will come in.

Ask yourself this: If we were sitting 6th right now (which isn't that hard considering the tiny gap), would you still be saying "we're only X off the top!". More likely it would be "we're only X off the top 4" but then you'd realise that top 4 should be the absolute minimum and that only being close to the top 4 isn't nearly good enough, even though the gap between 4th and 1st is only 4 points. And suddenly we'd find so many more calling for LVGs head. He's lucky, we're sitting 4th and most aren't even considering us finishing lower, they're only looking up the table - I'm looking down and thinking how long before Klopp gets Liverpool going? How long before Spurs hit form again?

So while we shouldn't rush to sack LVG, if he's not going to change his approach and get us playing football I think a change will be required for us to be in the CL next season. IF he changes and adapts to the PL then we can keep him on but right now I'm just waiting for us to slip down the table a bit before we sack him. Sadly, the longer it takes, the harder it will be to turn it around.
 
C'est Moi Cantona said:
Would the rational time be when we are out of the FA cup, and when we are struggling to get top 4? Would it not be better to preempt this before it happens? because unless LvG actually changes something then it will.

Personally I'd see how the Christmas games go, if we show improvement and progression in our play then give him some cash in January and press on, If it's more of the same then something imho has to be done.
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If some of us are so sure of the future, so confident in the ability to predict the future so as to be sure that we won't go far in the cup or make top 4, then I owe my mother an explanation when I shouted at her that nobody could see the future and to not waste my time with palmistry. My point is, we don't know. Last season we were all scared about what would happen in those 6 games in March/April (?). We all know what happened. We could go on a 22 game run to win the league, who knows what might happen? We ought to wait for something to occur if we're going to take such a drastic step.
 
U99ted said:
I'll just point out that it's not hard to be "in 3 competitions" at this point of the season. We're in the Europa League because we couldn't qualify from our CL group. Fair enough, we aren't around Chelsea right now in the Premier League, so of course we're "in" that. The FA Cup hasn't even started for Premier League teams. Do you see us winning any of them?
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:lol: Ridiculous isn't it?
 
redindian1987 said:
If some of us are so sure of the future, so confident in the ability to predict the future so as to be sure that we won't go far in the cup or make top 4, then I owe my mother an explanation when I shouted at her that nobody could see the future and to not waste my time with palmistry. My point is, we don't know. Last season we were all scared about what would happen in those 6 games in March/April (?). We all know what happened. We could go on a 22 game run to win the league, who knows what might happen? We ought to wait for something to occur if we're going to take such a drastic step.
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Do you think May is the only time to pull the plug?.

What if our form doesn't improve in the next few games, say we are like 6-7th in the league by end of the year, hypothetically. Is it still worth waiting till May?.
 
U99ted said:
I'll just point out that it's not hard to be "in 3 competitions" at this point of the season. We're in the Europa League because we couldn't qualify from our CL group. Fair enough, we aren't around Chelsea right now in the Premier League, so of course we're "in" that. The FA Cup hasn't even started for Premier League teams. Do you see us winning any of them?
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Don't forget that we're on course to qualify for the PL again next year.
 
Amethyst said:
I'm actually not van Gaal out as it happens, but if he was sacked tomorrow I wouldn't be that unhappy if for example Ancelotti agreed to manage us. I can't believe you can be so naive as to why people are calling for the sack, I don't blame people at all for wanting him out given the money spent and the mistakes made.

You say we're dependant on Rooney and Martial, but whose decision was it to get rid of van Persie and Hernandez without bringing in suitable replacements? Whose decision was it to sell Rafael and Evans whilst loaning Blackett to then only buy in Darmian?
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Yeah, maybe I was naive to believe that gobbledygook about how United aren't short term because we're actually more short term than most clubs.

The money spent is such a pointless measure; if we have ambitions of getting to the top again, we're going to bring in top players who are naturally expensive. Plus, we're the richest club in the world. One look at the transfer thread shows how that works out for us. If people are complaining about the money, how many of the players brought in during the last 2 years would you sell? Except for Rojo, Falcao and Valdes, each of those buys either had solid logic behind them or are one of our best players now. If Ancelotti comes in tomorrow, how many of Herrera, Shaw, Blind, Rojo, Valdes, Schneiderlin, Schweinsteiger et al would he sell? Rojo, at a stretch.

Again, I'm not saying van Gaal is blameless there, selling Hernandez and loaning Januzaj were poor decisions. The same Rafael who spent a majority of the season on the treatment table? I love Rafa, but he was a crock. Evans, who was a liability almost every game he played last season. We have 6 players who can play as fullback. How many more do we need?

All I'm saying is this: while van Gaal has made mistakes, the rational thing to do before taking a drastic step is to give the man every opportunity to prove that he can't cut it. Especially when he fulfilled expectations last season.
 
U99ted said:
I'll just point out that it's not hard to be "in 3 competitions" at this point of the season. We're in the Europa League because we couldn't qualify from our CL group. Fair enough, we aren't around Chelsea right now in the Premier League, so of course we're "in" that. The FA Cup hasn't even started for Premier League teams. Do you see us winning any of them?
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Brophs said:
Don't forget that we're on course to qualify for the PL again next year.
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bleedred said:
So he has already qualified us for 3 competitions next year minimum. Some acheivement that!!!
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:lol: The only way we could be in fewer competitions would be if we finished bottom of the Champions League group.
 
U99ted said:
I'll just point out that it's not hard to be "in 3 competitions" at this point of the season. We're in the Europa League because we couldn't qualify from our CL group. Fair enough, we aren't around Chelsea right now in the Premier League, so of course we're "in" that. The FA Cup hasn't even started for Premier League teams. Do you see us winning any of them?
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Yes, if we show some ambition, the Europa League is doable. The FA Cup, Stoke went to the final, anything is possible.
 
redindian1987 said:
As long as it is still possible to make top 4, then yes it will be too early.
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So you are suggesting a Moyes typing sacking, when we are mathematically out of it? Why not try to change the management and get Top 4 rather than waiting to see if we make it or not?.

Also Top 4 is a minimum requirement as sults pointed out earlier in the thread. So, we should be demanding more than that.
 
redindian1987 said:
As long as it is still possible to make top 4, then yes it will be too early.
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Our aims this season should be for the title. Not simply for top 4. Granted, our squad might not be good enough to win the title, but we've spent more than enough to be competing and if we're unable to, then the manager should be taking the flak for that to an extent.
 
redindian1987 said:
Yes, if we show some ambition, the Europa League is doable. The FA Cup, Stoke went to the final, anything is possible.
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Wigan's 2013 victory gives me hope we might be able to reach the last 16. Progression.
 
The style was the same last season as it is this season, except this season he seems to have made our attack even worse. We just about scraped by last season and most people (me included) thought, "OK, job done, now we need to kick on in 2015/16, score a few more goals and play more expansively".

We have gone backwards.

Forget all this "4pts off the top" bollocks. Just look at how we have been playing this year. The evidence is right in front of your eyes every time we play - LVG is floundering and so are we.
 
bleedred said:
So you are suggesting a Moyes typing sacking, when we are mathematically out of it? Why not try to change the management and get Top 4 rather than waiting to see if we make it or not?.

Also Top 4 is a minimum requirement as sults pointed out earlier in the thread. So, we should be demanding more than that.
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1) The incumbent has to be given a chance to fulfill that expectation, given that he did achieve it not six months ago.

2) Giggs as manager. Enough said.

3) Show me one team except the relegation threatened ones which actually did anything of note after sacking their manager mid-season.

OK, more than top 4, but what? Winning the league?
 
redindian1987 said:
1) The incumbent has to be given a chance to fulfill that expectation, given that he did achieve it not six months ago.

2) Giggs as manager. Enough said.

3) Show me one team except the relegation threatened ones which actually did anything of note after sacking their manager mid-season.

OK, more than top 4, but what? Winning the league?
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I can think of at least three times it has worked for Chelsea.
 
redindian1987 said:
1) The incumbent has to be given a chance to fulfill that expectation, given that he did achieve it not six months ago.

2) Giggs as manager. Enough said.

3) Show me one team except the relegation threatened ones which actually did anything of note after sacking their manager mid-season.

OK, more than top 4, but what? Winning the league?
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Chelsea did once win the Champions League after sacking a manager mid-season. Granted, I'm being selective since they were probably quite flukey and were dreadful in the league, but it can happen. If you make the right appointment, things can obviously improve. Whether the right candidate would be available is another matter, of course.
 
Cheesy said:
Our aims this season should be for the title. Not simply for top 4. Granted, our squad might not be good enough to win the title, but we've spent more than enough to be competing and if we're unable to, then the manager should be taking the flak for that to an extent.
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OK, we should be winning the league. At what point of time, including the highs of those glorious 2 days in the summer did you think this squad was capable of matching what City and Chelsea had? There's ambition and there's shooting too high. Which isn't a bad thing if you actually know that you've aiming too far.

The money bit is pointless. It's neither here or there.
 
The Purley King said:
The style was the same last season as it is this season, except this season he seems to have made our attack even worse. We just about scraped by last season and most people (me included) thought, "OK, job done, now we need to kick on in 2015/16, score a few more goals and play more expansively".

We have gone backwards.

Forget all this "4pts off the top" bollocks. Just look at how we have been playing this year. The evidence is right in front of your eyes every time we play - LVG is floundering and so are we.
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I don't even think we were as bad to watch as this season last season. We were often a bit boring and quite unimaginative, but we were certainly scoring more often. Plus, we had bonuses like Di Maria looking like a superb addition when he came in, and our spell in the second half of the season when we played some excellent football. Many of our attack-minded players were better last season than this year: Carrick, Rooney, and even the more maligned players like Fellaini and Young found a bit of form.
 
redindian1987 said:
1) The incumbent has to be given a chance to fulfill that expectation, given that he did achieve it not six months ago.

2) Giggs as manager. Enough said.

3) Show me one team except the relegation threatened ones which actually did anything of note after sacking their manager mid-season.

OK, more than top 4, but what? Winning the league?
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1) Achieving it in the past doesnt mean it will happen again.

2 ) How can you just dismiss Giggs right away and blindly suggest LVG would be better than him. Managers less experienced than Giggs have ended up doing well.

3) Chelsea 2007/8, Chelsea 2011/12. Chelsea 2013/14. Spurs 2007/8. Liverpool 2011/12.

4) Yes, winning the league.
 
Keeps It tidy said:
I can think of at least three times it has worked for Chelsea.
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Oh goody. We're now comparing ourselves to fecking Chelsea in the manager department. What next? Madrid?

Which time? Grant when they won nothing? Di Matteo which has to be the luckiest win beating Liverpool's in 2005 (which is some achievement).

Cheesy said:
Chelsea did once win the Champions League after sacking a manager mid-season. Granted, I'm being selective since they were probably quite flukey and were dreadful in the league, but it can happen. If you make the right appointment, things can obviously improve. Whether the right candidate would be available is another matter, of course.
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Did Di Matteo ever give the impression that he was the right person? He wasn't, that was more the squad doing a job plus a huge slice of luck.
 
bleedred said:
1) Achieving it in the past doesnt mean it will happen again.

2 ) How can you just dismiss Giggs right away and blindly suggest LVG would be better than him. Managers less experienced than Giggs have ended up doing well.

3) Chelsea 2007/8, Chelsea 2011/12. Chelsea 2013/14. Spurs 2007/8. Liverpool 2011/12.

4) Yes, winning the league.
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Probably because of what all Van Gaal has achieved in management and feck all Giggs has achieved in management.

Managers less experienced than Giggs? :lol: What is that, managers in charge for 0 to 3 games?
 
redindian1987 said:
OK, we should be winning the league. At what point of time, including the highs of those glorious 2 days in the summer did you think this squad was capable of matching what City and Chelsea had? There's ambition and there's shooting too high. Which isn't a bad thing if you actually know that you've aiming too far.

The money bit is pointless. It's neither here or there.
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The money thing isn't pointless, though. This is the sort of shit we've often laughed at Chelsea and City for; spending lots and lots of money, but not adding enough genuine quality and building a cohesive team. If you're one of the biggest spenders in world football, then you should really be competing for your domestic league title at the very least.

Did I ever think we were in a genuine position to compete for the title? No, not really. I'm shocked at Chelsea's fall, and unsure what to make of City, but the problem is that if we're going to be massive spenders, then we should be expecting some actual results to come from it. Considering the current lack of quality in the league, in that there is no obvious, runaway contender, we really should be in contention for the title. Despite that though, we don't look like it. 4 points off top, we currently look like one of those mid-table sides who have based their side on being tight defensively and hard to beat, while managing to grind out some results with a possession based style of play. It's dreadful to watch, and even worse when it's considered that we'll probably struggle to maintain our competition for the title if we continue like this, or someone actually emerges as a credible, dominant winner.

Who knows, perhaps we're just especially shit right now and we'll begin to look like contenders, but I'm not seeing it. And for the money we're spending, it's not really good enough.
 
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