LVG Out Thread | BBC: Sacked!

[Seij]

Exactly, those posts about comparisons of how useless possession is are nothing short of the stupidest lines of reasoning on this forum and that's saying something. They ignore the fact that pretty much all the best teams in the world dominate possession and yes that includes us under Fergie. If you look at the title winners from the best European leagues over whatever period you like to pick, you would find that the majority of them dominated possession more often than not. To ignore that and focus on bloody Leicester can only be explained by people getting overly emotional about LvG and just discounting everything he has ever done.

Those best teams in the world typically dominate possession by outplaying their opponents. We keep possession by a bunch of sidepasses and backpasses that rarely build up to any potential scoring play. It's keeping possession for sake of keeping possession with no clear finish plan. All the teams that are considered to be "underdogs" when they play us are in no hurry to score fast and just let us pass around the ball while they tighten the defense. We have been proving them right with our lack of goals against those teams.

I wanted to make a point that simply boosting that possession number is not be all and end all of having a successful club, not to state that the possession itself is useless. Possession needs to have a purpose, and it's important to know when to switch between possession play and counterattacking and LvG doesn't seem to believe in that.

In fact, is there anyone who says that the possession itself is useless?

 

[Theonas]

Those best teams in the world typically dominate possession by outplaying their opponents. We keep possession by a bunch of sidepasses and backpasses that rarely build up to any potential scoring play. It's keeping possession for sake of keeping possession with no clear finish plan. All the teams that are considered to be "underdogs" when they play us are in no hurry to score fast and just let us pass around the ball while they tighten the defense. We have been proving them right with our lack of goals against those teams.

I wanted to make a point that simply boosting that possession number is not be all and end all of having a successful club, not to state that the possession itself is useless. Possession needs to have a purpose, and it's important to know when to switch between possession play and counterattacking and LvG doesn't seem to believe in that.

In fact, is there anyone who says that the possession itself is useless?

Fair enough. Can't really really argue with that. To answer your question, it is difficult to say. When folks talk about how "our best games were when we did not dominate possession" or "look at Leicester, no possession and they're doing well", it is difficult not to conclude what they actually mean. For me, big teams have to dominate possession, it is as simple as that. It is the best way to win football games and the fact that in most times, the team that wins is the one with the more possession is evidence of that. What you do in the final third is equally vital to winning but that is regardless of whether you are controlling possessing and trying to find a gap or counter attacking. You need to be good in the final third either way. The fact that we are not is the issue which is why I find bringing up possession to the discussion useless as if anything, it is the one part in our game that is any good and responsible for not being even worse.

 

[Theonas]

That seems strange to me. I understand if you have a dislike to the guy, he is a marmite character. But there is no denying his pedigree and the fact he would improve this team. To not want that over a personal dislike I don't get, especially given our situation at present.

I can totally identify with @anant. It is actually weird since I also would rate only Benitez lower on my list of candidates. It is nothing to do with his personality though as you point out. There is no denying the man's pedigree, however, one has to remember what has this pedigree been built on. Football success can come in may shapes and forms and not all of them are suited to every team. It is not like being an runner where the measure of success is black and white. The things that Mourinho are good at in football management are plenty and I'd argue he is the best at them and maybe as good as anyone in the history of the game at them. They just happen to be things that are not desirable or wanted for Manchester United or any big club. He is a reactive manager and big clubs should be pro active. Even if you are the best reactive manager there has ever been, it's still less suited than an average or unproven pro active manager like say Pochettino to a team whose aim is to be pro active.

 

[Silverman]

Pochettino should be the target. If we finish in the top 4 and leicester win the title there isn't any real reason why he won't leave Tottenham. His current squad may be better settled than ours but he will have much more money to spend if he comes to United and will most likely also get a bigger salary.

 

[sunama]

If I make a list of managers I want at Utd, Mou will be closer to the bottom than the top. I rate him as the 2nd least desirable manager and I am including EVERY manager in the world. The least desirable- Benitez! Thats how much I hate Mou

So lets see your list.

 

[SteveJ]

So lets see your list.

1. Every manager in the world
2. Hitler
9000000000. Mourinho
9000000001. Rafa

 

[Raoul]

If LVG gets us Top 4 and wins FA Cup, I don't think he'll be sacked.
I think only top 4 may save his job.
Although want him gone, I'd have him to Mou anyday

So you prefer perennial mediocrity to winning leagues and CLs ? Interesting.

 

[sunama]

So you prefer perennial mediocrity to winning leagues and CLs ? Interesting.

Too right.
I find it bemusing when some fans are saying they'd rather be a mid table team who play the worst football in the country (yes, this is what we currently are), than to hire an elite level manager who is ready, able and willing, who has a history of wining trophies.
I can only think these are supporters from rival teams who don't want to see us win trophies.

 

[Mainoldo]

1. Every manager in the world
2. Hitler
9000000000. Mourinho
9000000001. Rafa

Why?

 

[ManUchosenbosslvg]

Pochettino should be the target. If we finish in the top 4 and leicester win the title there isn't any real reason why he won't leave Tottenham. His current squad may be better settled than ours but he will have much more money to spend if he comes to United and will most likely also get a bigger salary.

If it's true Poch is only on £2m a year then we would easily make that £7m-£8m. He has to decide if the worse squad combined with added fan pressure and expectation of winning everything are worth the money.

I'd def take him, gets his team playing a high tempo game with pressing and serious work ethic. There's some popular players in our side that wouldn't have the athleticism, hunger or mentality to learn a new style of football though.

 

[Silverman]

If it's true Poch is only on £2m a year then we would easily make that £7m-£8m. He has to decide if the worse squad combined with added fan pressure and expectation of winning everything are worth the money.

I'd def take him, gets his team playing a high tempo game with pressing and serious work ethic. There's some popular players in our side that wouldn't have the athleticism, hunger or mentality to learn a new style of football though.

He also gives youth a chance. Alli, Davies, Wimmer, Carroll, Onomah for example.

 

[Ish]

1. Every manager in the world
2. Hitler
9000000000. Mourinho
9000000001. Rafa

 

[anant]

So you prefer perennial mediocrity to winning leagues and CLs ? Interesting.

The motive/objective of any club should be to entertain in a positive way. If they manage to do that all well and good, if they don't irrespective of success manager should be warned and subsequently sacked. If it means 5-7 years without PL, provided we finish in UCL places but play the most fluid football has ever seen, I won't mind that honestly. When I started following Utd, I didn't understand how the league table works, nor did I understand tactics, nor where we were, (although had heard name of utd from friends who used to play with them on FIFA series), all I knew was I like watching this team. So, why should I change the reason of why I support the club!
There are 2 managers- One is saying I want to change retain your traditions and then try to win, The other is saying I dont care about tradition but I will win. The difference is one is guarding your club's uniqueness of youth policy and attacking football, The other doesn't care about the image of the club, and while he is more confident of winning, there is an equal likelihood of him not winning.
Winners and Losers can arrive from any place and at anytime. No one predicted Ranieri will win with Leicester, nor Spurs will finish this high under Poch, Nor Pool almost winning the league under Rodgers (Interesting to note Mou finished below Rodgers that season). And then there have been equal no. of failures as well- LVG, Scolari (Chelsea), AVB (Chelsea).
We signed up a winner, didn't we? Look where we are! The only positive is that atleast we know that there is good talent in youth teams and that would make a much tougher task for Mou to not give them chances

 

[Raoul]

The motive/objective of any club should be to entertain in a positive way. If they manage to do that all well and good, if they don't irrespective of success manager should be warned and subsequently sacked. If it means 5-7 years without PL, provided we finish in UCL places but play the most fluid football has ever seen, I won't mind that honestly. When I started following Utd, I didn't understand how the league table works, nor did I understand tactics, nor where we were, (although had heard name of utd from friends who used to play with them on FIFA series), all I knew was I like watching this team. So, why should I change the reason of why I support the club!
There are 2 managers- One is saying I want to change retain your traditions and then try to win, The other is saying I dont care about tradition but I will win. The difference is one is guarding your club's uniqueness of youth policy and attacking football, The other doesn't care about the image of the club, and while he is more confident of winning, there is an equal likelihood of him not winning.
Winners and Losers can arrive from any place and at anytime. No one predicted Ranieri will win with Leicester, nor Spurs will finish this high under Poch, Nor Pool almost winning the league under Rodgers (Interesting to note Mou finished below Rodgers that season). And then there have been equal no. of failures as well- LVG, Scolari (Chelsea), AVB (Chelsea).
We signed up a winner, didn't we? Look where we are! The only positive is that atleast we know that there is good talent in youth teams and that would make a much tougher task for Mou to not give them chances

This is the type of antiquated view that needs to be expunged from our approach in the future. The romantic youth era is over now that sugar daddy owners have changed the way clubs are run. If we can't compete with Europe's top clubs (as in regularly win leagues and occasionally Euro cups) then we are finished as a club. Upper mid table obscurity, whilst playing swashbuckling football is for the likes of Everton, Spurs, and Southampton. We need to win now or else risk falling behind the likes of City, Arsenal, Spurs, and others, nevermind the European giants.

 

[golden_blunder]

Regardless of the rights and (many) wrongs of LVG's tenure, using Leicester as some sort of indication of a more pervasive trend ignores almost everything about them, IMO.

Not a trend but it shows you can be successful in different ways.
Leicester press high, use pace and energy. We lack all 3, regardless of whether you have possession or not.

Actually I read an interesting article about Conte. It said that he doesn't believe in possession football. Rather he likes to be direct through wingers or getting the ball to the striker as quickly as possible. But crucially he likes to press high and win the ball back as quickly as possible.

 

[golden_blunder]

This is the type of antiquated view that needs to be expunged from our approach in the future. The romantic youth era is over now that sugar daddy owners have changed the way clubs are run. If we can't compete with Europe's top clubs (as in regularly win leagues and occasionally Euro cups) then we are finished as a club. Upper mid table obscurity, whilst playing swashbuckling football is for the likes of Everton, Spurs, and Southampton. We need to win now or else risk falling behind the likes of City, Arsenal, Spurs, and others, nevermind the European giants.

I agree that we prob need to spend to catch up now but that's specific to our league I think. Juve have shown that you don't need to spend loads to be successful

 

[Laphroaig]

Too right.
I find it bemusing when some fans are saying they'd rather be a mid table team who play the worst football in the country (yes, this is what we currently are), than to hire an elite level manager who is ready, able and willing, who has a history of wining trophies.
I can only think these are supporters from rival teams who don't want to see us win trophies.

Maybe they think we'll be able to improve next season with other managers than him - he's not the only manager in the world (besides Pep obviously). Maybe they think he won't win things for us. Maybe they think he'll do well for two years, then leave us in a poor state needing to rebuild once again. Maybe they think his football will be negative and boring. Maybe they think he's a narcissistic clown who'll disgrace the club. Maybe they love the club's commitment to bringing through youth and want the club to continue that one good thing about LVG's reign. Etc, etc, etc.

I get that people are desperate for something new and for winning again and that they believe Mourinho is the closest to a guaranteed short-term success there is. But I don't understand why people are puzzled that some of us are highly skeptical, or even really, really don't want him.

 

[Oaencha]

I'm firmly in the 'LVG out' camp but a mate asked me today whether I would rather...

Man Utd made top 4/Champions League, won the FA cup and LVG stays next season (followed by Giggs on a 5 year contract).

or

Man Utd end up 6th-8th, lose to West Ham in the FA cup replay, lose a few million fans, but hire a new manager (doesn't have to be Mourinho) for next season.

I can't decide. I obviously want Man Utd to be in the Champions League and win a cup, but LVG has really sucked the joy out of watching football for me. I don't know if I can take another season of this.

Any thoughts?

 

[Devil may care]

I'm firmly in the 'LVG out' camp but a mate asked me today whether I would rather...

Man Utd made top 4/Champions League, won the FA cup and LVG stays next season (followed by Giggs on a 5 year contract).

or

Man Utd end up 6th-8th, lose to West Ham in the FA cup replay, lose a few million fans, but hire a new manager (doesn't have to be Mourinho) for next season.

I can't decide. I obviously want Man Utd to be in the Champions League and win a cup, but LVG has really sucked the joy out of watching football for me. I don't know if I can take another season of this.

Any thoughts?

Any option that rids us of LvG is the one I'd go for, he has made us a joyless team to watch.

 

[Winrar]

Any option that rids us of LvG is the one I'd go for, he has made us a joyless team to watch.

this

 

[Offside]

I'm firmly in the 'LVG out' camp but a mate asked me today whether I would rather...

Man Utd made top 4/Champions League, won the FA cup and LVG stays next season (followed by Giggs on a 5 year contract).

or

Man Utd end up 6th-8th, lose to West Ham in the FA cup replay, lose a few million fans, but hire a new manager (doesn't have to be Mourinho) for next season.

I can't decide. I obviously want Man Utd to be in the Champions League and win a cup, but LVG has really sucked the joy out of watching football for me. I don't know if I can take another season of this.

Any thoughts?

Would have to be the former option. Think long term. The FA cup joy would be short lived if he was confirmed to be staying after. We'd have another year of joyless shite ans as for finishing 4th, there would be no point under LVG as we'd just end up in the Europa League again with no chance of winning that. May aswell go straight into the Europa with a new hope of winning it (a new manager).

 

[anant]

This is the type of antiquated view that needs to be expunged from our approach in the future. The romantic youth era is over now that sugar daddy owners have changed the way clubs are run. If we can't compete with Europe's top clubs (as in regularly win leagues and occasionally Euro cups) then we are finished as a club. Upper mid table obscurity, whilst playing swashbuckling football is for the likes of Everton, Spurs, and Southampton. We need to win now or else risk falling behind the likes of City, Arsenal, Spurs, and others, nevermind the European giants.

Its antiqued if you value trophies more than the club itself.
PROS:
1. may win trophies
2. May manage to attract top players
3. May mange to keep hold of DDG

CONS:
1. Boring football
2. No youth
3. Off field controversies
4. Team destroyed in his 3rd year/morale very down
5. Doesn't know how to rebuild
6. Poor Man Management

You see the pros are all speculative. The 1st 2 were true for LVG as well, the 3rd is pure speculation.
The cons on the other hand are ingrained in his DNA. We know that for a certainty. Why would anyone still want such a manager

 

[Perrick Dubois]

You see the pros are all speculative. The 1st 2 were true for LVG as well, the 3rd is pure speculation.
The cons on the other hand are ingrained in his DNA. We know that for a certainty. Why would anyone still want such a manager

The cons are semi-speculative as well though. Who knows whether he'll continue to manage the same way he always has until it happens at United, if and when he signs for us. Just because he's managed certain aspects in a different way in the past doesn't mean he will never ever change no matter what and continue to always do things that way. We will just have to wait and see.

 

[JohnnyKills]

That seems strange to me. I understand if you have a dislike to the guy, he is a marmite character. But there is no denying his pedigree and the fact he would improve this team. To not want that over a personal dislike I don't get, especially given our situation at present.

It also seems a bit excessive to rank him 2nd bottom on a list of every manager in the world. Surely Moyes and Rodgers would be below him, wouldn't they? And Stuart Pearce? And that Scouse clown on Big Ron Manager? And the guy in the Salford City documentary? There's five people worse than Mourinho straightaway.

 

[JohnnyKills]

CONS:
1. Boring football. Really? Remember the Chelsea of Robben and Duff? Or the Inter who beat Barca 3-1 in 2010? Or his RM team who scored 100 goals a season?
2. No youth. Again, really? Varane, Zouma, Morata, Robben, Santon, Balotelli. All bought or given their first big chance at senior level by Mourinho.
3. Off field controversies. Ok, so you must also dislike LVG then, right? And Ferguson, who regularly fought with the press, abused referees and picked fights with other managers.
4. Team destroyed in his 3rd year/morale very down. In the third season of his first spell at Chelsea, Mourinho had lost only one game when he quit, which doesn't really equate to failure. He left Inter before getting to his third season, and at RM in his third season he finished second behind Barcelona (better than the position Real find themselves in now), got four points from the two Clasico games, reached the final of the Copa Del Rey and missed out on the CL final by a single goal. Again, not exactly a failure.
5. Doesn't know how to rebuild. He's never been at a club long enough to go through a second cycle, so it's perhaps too early to say whether he can rebuild or not. Plus you can level the same accusation at Guardiola, Abramovich and in fact any manager currently active.
6. Poor Man Management. This is probably the biggest area of doubt and concern with him, but hopefully he can rectify this. Let's not forget people like Lampard, Terry and Drogba love him.

 

[endless_wheelies]

 

[DomesticTadpole]

I am getting worried now. I very rarely feel the desire to watch games. I would rather just follow them on here. I cannot wait for the season to end, but am dreading what we hear at the end. If he is staying it will ruin my summer and what will we have to look forward to in the future for our club? Also £100m, what do they think we can buy for that? This team still need more than that spending on it, especially if he spends most of it on Lukaku. Except it appears Chelsea are looking at him again. I wonder who would I go to, London with Conte as manager or Manchester with the permanent raincloud of LvG hanging over it. Then the spectre of bloody Giggs and his buddies in the background.

 

[Adisa]

The €100m part is probably BS. Ed has already said there will be a significant summer drive.

 

[Scorpy]

ffs..

 

[Acquire Me]

LvG is a nice guy and a pro manager. He has not been up to the task this time and will leave in the summer. That is for sure.

 

[anant]

CONS:
1. Boring football. Really? Remember the Chelsea of Robben and Duff? Or the Inter who beat Barca 3-1 in 2010? Or his RM team who scored 100 goals a season?
2. No youth. Again, really? Varane, Zouma, Morata, Robben, Santon, Balotelli. All bought or given their first big chance at senior level by Mourinho.
3. Off field controversies. Ok, so you must also dislike LVG then, right? And Ferguson, who regularly fought with the press, abused referees and picked fights with other managers.
4. Team destroyed in his 3rd year/morale very down. In the third season of his first spell at Chelsea, Mourinho had lost only one game when he quit, which doesn't really equate to failure. He left Inter before getting to his third season, and at RM in his third season he finished second behind Barcelona (better than the position Real find themselves in now), got four points from the two Clasico games, reached the final of the Copa Del Rey and missed out on the CL final by a single goal. Again, not exactly a failure.
5. Doesn't know how to rebuild. He's never been at a club long enough to go through a second cycle, so it's perhaps too early to say whether he can rebuild or not. Plus you can level the same accusation at Guardiola, Abramovich and in fact any manager currently active.
6. Poor Man Management. This is probably the biggest area of doubt and concern with him, but hopefully he can rectify this. Let's not forget people like Lampard, Terry and Drogba love him.

1. Remember the 2nd leg of that SF, or his games in general. And RM scoring 100 goals was due to CR7 and his obsession with goals than other way round.
2. http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/fo...ust-five-starts-Chelsea-academy-starlets.html
"Mourinho has handed first-team opportunities in the league to only 23 academy players during his 15 years of management at Benfica, Uniao Leiria, Porto, Chelsea, Inter Milan and Real Madrid. "
3. None fought such a high profile war with the clubs backroom staff, no one poked other team's assistant in the eye. Going on a rant is acceptable, having a fight with opposition manager is ok but these things aren't and neither is abusing the opposition manager
4. That was actually the 4th season. 3rd season was the one where we won the PL thanks to CR7, Rooney, etc. And RM recognises that season a complete failure. They were in the news for all the wrong reasons. Its never just the results that define how your season went.
5. So its a shot in the dark! You cant be the worlds greatest manager if you never have rebuilt a side

 

[Raoul]

Its antiqued if you value trophies more than the club itself.
PROS:
1. may win trophies
2. May manage to attract top players
3. May mange to keep hold of DDG

CONS:
1. Boring football
2. No youth
3. Off field controversies
4. Team destroyed in his 3rd year/morale very down
5. Doesn't know how to rebuild
6. Poor Man Management

You see the pros are all speculative. The 1st 2 were true for LVG as well, the 3rd is pure speculation.
The cons on the other hand are ingrained in his DNA. We know that for a certainty. Why would anyone still want such a manager

What you're essentially proposing is a recipe for what we have tried under Moyes and Van Gaal, both of whom have flopped here. In the simplest terms, you get the best manager in the world that is available and let them do their job. Mourinho has won more trophies than anyone since 2000, so he seems to have a decent grip on how it all works. Another year of floundering in Europa league table position and we might risk tumbling into a Liverpool-like generational descent into "there's always next year" mediocrity.

 

[anant]

What you're essentially proposing is a recipe for what we have tried under Moyes and Van Gaal, both of whom have flopped here. In the simplest terms, you get the best manager in the world that is available and let them do their job. Mourinho has won more trophies than anyone since 2000, so he seems to have a decent grip on how it all works. Another year of floundering in Europa league table position and we might risk tumbling into a Liverpool-like generational descent into "there's always next year" mediocrity.

But wasn't the Pro's list more or the same when LVG joined (except for the 3rd part but with the pro that youth get chances)?
Source of winning trophies can come from unlikeliest of managers- Chelsea's UCL win, their Europa league win, Sir Matt Busby for us (I'm assuming as it was his 1st job), Ranieri with Leicester. There is no formula to winning trophies, surely even if there is, Manager=Mou isn't a part of the equation

 

[golden_blunder]

I can't take another season of lvg, I just can't

 

[Pexbo]

The €100m part is probably BS. Ed has already said there will be a significant summer drive.

The €100m bit makes me think the whole article is bullshit. That's £80m. We'll be spending close to that on a striker I'd imagine.

 

[Tosicsleftpeg]

I genuinely think a better manager could do a lot more with our current squad rather than having to spend hundreds of millions. I'd say we need 3 or 4 new players maximum, a winger, striker a central defender and a central midfielder to replace carrick or fellaini.

The squad isn't that bad, sure its light but the players aren't all shit just not pulling their weight for one reason or another.

 

[Woodzy]

€100m would get us absolutely nowhere.

 

[JohnnyKills]

1. Remember the 2nd leg of that SF, or his games in general. And RM scoring 100 goals was due to CR7 and his obsession with goals than other way round.
2. http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/fo...ust-five-starts-Chelsea-academy-starlets.html
"Mourinho has handed first-team opportunities in the league to only 23 academy players during his 15 years of management at Benfica, Uniao Leiria, Porto, Chelsea, Inter Milan and Real Madrid. "
3. None fought such a high profile war with the clubs backroom staff, no one poked other team's assistant in the eye. Going on a rant is acceptable, having a fight with opposition manager is ok but these things aren't and neither is abusing the opposition manager
4. That was actually the 4th season. 3rd season was the one where we won the PL thanks to CR7, Rooney, etc. And RM recognises that season a complete failure. They were in the news for all the wrong reasons. Its never just the results that define how your season went.
5. So its a shot in the dark! You cant be the worlds greatest manager if you never have rebuilt a side

So what are you saying, that you can blame Mourinho when he has sub-standard players but when he has top players, he doesn't take any credit?

The academy products thing is a fair point, but it's also worth noting that neither Chelsea nor Madrid has a policy of introducing young players - they much prefer the short-term big-budget strategy. In fact, hardly any club brings those academy players these days. Wenger probably averages about one a year, and even Ferguson slowed down after the Scholes-Beckham-Neville generation came through (and only two of the players he introduced in his last 10 years, Darren Fletcher and Danny Welbeck, became established first-team regulars).

Ferguson also abused opposition managers, regularly. Also, do you think it's ok to get involved in a battle with two of your club's major shareholders over a racehorse? To 'allegedly' get involved in shady practices with your son? (yes this is all conjecture but the BBC must have felt they had strong evidence to produce a programme on it).

Thanks for correction on Mourinho's time at Chelsea, you're right. But what you're saying actually backs up my point. Chelsea's third-season ended in an FA Cup win, a runners-up finish in the PL and a loss on penalties in the CL. What we wouldn't give for that at United at the moment.

And as for your last point, who exactly is the best manager in the world then? Guardiola and Simeone have never been around long enough to rebuild a team, and Klopp's attempt at rebuilding Dortmund ended in disaster (the club had a nightmare in his final season). The rebuilding process usually starts after five years, so only those managers who stay at a single club long-term have to undertake it. None of today's top managers have done that as far as I can recall.

 

[Sparky Rhiwabon]

€100m would get us absolutely nowhere.

Exactly - thats £80m - in the current market, or the market as it will be in the summer, if we buy Lukaku that's gone straightaway

 

[ravi2]

Too right.
I find it bemusing when some fans are saying they'd rather be a mid table team who play the worst football in the country (yes, this is what we currently are), than to hire an elite level manager who is ready, able and willing, who has a history of wining trophies.
I can only think these are supporters from rival teams who don't want to see us win trophies.

That is exactly who they are.... supporters from rival teams who are scared shitless of seeing MUFC rise again.
They were out in force during Moyes tenure wanting us to "give Moyes more time" as well.