well no because how much involvement does he have with these 18 yeah old kids? The youngsters who he gave opportunities to at the beginning (mcNair's, Januzaj, Blacketts and Wilsons) haven't shown any improvement. In fact they are worse. These raw talents that have been plucked from the 18's squad last minute due to limited options are still very raw, untried and probably untrained in the "philosophy." Its like when Martial arrived, his natural talent presented itself to us instantly but we cannot say that LVG as actually improved him. As yet I am not convinced the philosophy will have a positive impact on these younger players.
LVG Out Thread | BBC: Sacked!
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Still want him gone. The kids are saving him actually. I have a horrible feeling that if we do win a cup or sneak into the top 4 if City collapse then hes staying.
I agree, yes they beat arsenal, but lets not get carried away these younger players are the model of the club's success going forward. Its one thing having the impact at 18 for 1 game or 2, doing it week in week out, different animal altogether. We still need a squad with experience that do not break down, and still the concern is how many of our senior players keep getting injured which has to be addressed in the next couple of seasons
I actually loved yesterday. It's probably the best feeling I've had for the last 18 Months. I'm not bothered who was sat in the dugout. What I saw yesterday is something I want to see on a more consistent basis. I'm sure LvG is not the person to take the club forward.Must be bittersweet emotions for you that LVG inspired the feel good atmosphere to return to Old Trafford this week!
Some of these youngsters would not have been anywhere near the first team squad had we had more fit players. The reasons LvG gives for having a small is giving youngsters a chance has only been his go to reasons for making himself look clever for playing youngsters.
Where were these kids prior to all the unprecedented injuries?
I think this is a bit unfair. He explicitly said he likes a small squad because it gives youth more of a chance, he said that well before we got into this situation so I dont think it is about making himself look clever after the fact. Yes he could have given them a chance before the injury crisis but that would have betrayed a lack of confidence in his senior players, I think he was entitled to expect more from them when they were fit.
Im not saying all my doubts about Van Gaal have been erased by any means, on the contrary I suspect we'll struggle to build up any momentum from here as we have on many previous occasions. If he had bought a few more players to give us more depth - or not sold so many of our squad players in the first place - we might be higher up in the league, (though we could also have had even greater problems finding any kind of rhythm or cohesion, it is simply impossible to know) but he did what he did and things are what they are and the one silver lining is that we have a few young players a little further along in their development than they might otherwise have been and that could be beneficial to us next season. I do think Van Gaal deserves credit for that as much as he has deserved criticism for other aspects of his management so far.
Indeed. And people are falling for it.
And lets not forget beating Arsenal in 1 game is not the standard we should be judging ourselves.
Surely our target is to be title contenders? Since when is beating Arsenal the standard by which we and all teams are judged by?
Some fans are behaving as if yesterday's win, won us the title.
We are in 5th place and this is nothing to be proud of. In fact, this is a disaster.
Once our first team players recover, those youngsters won't see first team football action.
More than likely, they'll be loaned out or sold (ie. they'll be given the Januzaj/Wilson/Wellbeck treatment).
What astounds me is that we are in 5th place, yet LVG is not taking any flack.
So much money available. So much money spent. And we are in 5th place. Am I the only one who thinks this is disastrous?
Obviously haven't been on here a lot. After a good win, and the youngsters doing well I think it's fair people are a little bit more positive though
Come on now, Van Gaal is taking a shitload of flack and has been for months. If people are giving him a bit of respite since last night that is understandable for me, I dont think people have suddenly decided he is some kind of mastermind or forgotten our league position, I certainly havent, people are just saying credit where it's due, we've slated you non stop for the last few months but this is one good thing to come out of it and we recognise it.
As for your first sentence, time will tell if you are right or wrong about that, if you are proved right I agree that will be poor management on his part. But I prefer to wait to see what he does than criticise him for actions he hasnt even taken yet.
I'd give him another season if he can get us into the top 4.
I assume you are aware that this is page 476 of the "LVG Out Thread"
Not only did van goal say things before we had injuries but certain fans have said it abiut him. Not only that, but players and managers have said things about him and his trust in youth.
Oh well. You can't win people over.
@sunama I mean just check the poll to this very thread. Neatly 70% of people want the man sacked right now, this instant, while 22% say evaluate at the end of the season - I think (though I guess I could be wrong) if you polled those respondents specifically, most of them are basically saying getting rid now wont help because Mourinho doesnt want to come mid season, or needs to buy his own players, or whatever - I cant imagine a large proportion of them seriously want him in place next season. Less than 5% of people want him to be unequivocally given next season regardless. That doesnt sound like a ringing endorsement of the manager to me.
@Santiago_KinderBueno, Are you calling Louis van Gaal ''van Goal'' intentionally or something? Not the first time you've done it.
I'd love for him to be here next season, but I recognize that I'm part of a small minority. I just don't think that because it has been bad, it will continue to be bad, it is a work in progress and we're not performing while we're learning, but I genuinely believe we'd do better with another year of van Gaal than Mourinho.
In all likelyhood the decision has already been made, though, and Jose is coming in the summer.
In all likelyhood the decision has already been made, though, and Jose is coming in the summer.
I don't see why. Battling for 4th is his limit. We are due a title challenge. Its been nearly 3 years now. There are other managers who can mount an effective title with challenge with more restrictions, and its happening in our league right now. The weird decisions, 2 holding midfielders at home vs lesser teams, dodgy performances, lack of progression, worsening of most of our players and this "possession trumps all" game are the hallmarks of his time with us. If United want to get back we can't have such low standards. Won't be long before "attack, attack, attack" is heard again and we start booing them off home games due to a lack of goals.
He's still gotta go.
Though some problems he's had were inherited from Moyes and the last season or two of SAF.
Though some problems he's had were inherited from Moyes and the last season or two of SAF.
We need to plan for the future - he's said next season will be his last, so the club needs to be sorting out a proper plan for his successor, and if that person is available this summer, we need to work around that.
If he manages to sneak us into that 4th spot either through the Europa or by winning the majority of our remaining games, well then he has my vote to stay on for another season. Rather it was by chance or not, he seems to have done very well with the younger players, which was one of his key traits mentioned when he got the job. I'd like to see that continue for another season with the painfully slow and patient philosophy seemingly scrapped.
Arguably – yes. But what LVG's critics will say – and it isn't an unreasonable view – is that if the kids who have been given chances recently (because of injuries) are truly his players, i.e. players who shine as they do because they're products of the Philosophy (at least partly), it isn't obvious at all why they weren't given minutes when players like Rooney obviously struggled for form earlier on: Benching Rooney for Rashford before Christmas – that would have been an undeniable stroke of genius.
What's happened recently has an air of randomness to it, even if we recognize that relying on youth for backup is part of LVG's general – and normal – approach. Rashford and Varela are backups to the backups – it's impossible to regard their emergence as part of a plan worth lauding.
Are we seeing something that is entirely unrelated to LVG's basic strategy? No, that would be unfair to claim. But we don't have much reason to consider Rashford's appearance in a radically different light from, say, that of Love's – or the bizarre use of Powell. It looks like hit-and-miss more than a methodical introduction of players who have gradually become more “educated” as per his teachings.
here here
You are clearly hedging your bets and I have about as much conviction in this argument as you apparently do. I dont think this is a masterplan, like you said, he could have promoted some of these kids when senior players were playing poorly, and he didnt. It is possible we could have gone through the season with no severe injury crisis and never seen most of these players, maybe one or two coming through for a couple of games but nothing more, it is luck, or circumstance, that has made things pan out as they have. Im not denying that. But on the other hand, those who are saying he was forced into this and deserves no credit are IMO equally wrong because Van Gaal is experienced enough to know he was likely to be forced to call on some of these players at some point, and he was willing to allow himself to be put into that position.
He was the one who went into the season with this squad, a lot of people were tearing their hair out saying we were going to be short, he obviously felt we were covered. As things turned out the injury crisis was as bad as even the most pessimistic of us could have feared and yet in the end we were covered. So he has been vindicated. That is as far as I would go, really.
It would have been nice to see him drop Rooney months ago when he was playing shite but that is hardly a point worth making seeing as it is a consensus opinion. If he had, and if Rashford had been the beneficiary of that, he would deserve a lot more credit, for sure - and I doubt there would be many people arguing about it. Still, the fact he hasnt earned that greater credit doesnt make him any less entitled to the more modest credit he has been getting since yesterday evening.
Without him you will not see wat you saw yesterday on a consistent basis, you won't see it all. It's not unreasonable to think a different manager would bring you more success, but not with this many youngsters.
And how were they? Probably the last time Fellaine played up top Rashford was 5 inches shorter and still a winger. Playing youngsters is not a matter of picking the greatest talent at the beginning of the season and have him waiting on the bench for an injury. They develop quickly, they develop in an unpredictable way, and they have big swings in form, the bottom, their minimum level comes with maturity and experience. So it's a matter of academy and manager working closely together to learn them as much of the first team requirements before making it into the squad, it's a matter of monitoring their development closely and picking them when they are in good form.
And then they will play as youngsters, nervous, insecure, overwhelmed by the pace, making stupid mistakes, no idea where to walk and where to pass, getting tricked into fouls and cards by experienced players etc. Unless the manager is Louis Van Gaal, who teaches them very specifically what to do and what not to do in the specific match, making it easy for them to do what they know best. It's the talent and spirit of the youngsters that makes things happen, but it's the manager who prevents disaster, especially with so many youngster with so little minutes in the 1st team at the same time. No matter their talent, winning with kids is a different trade and Van Gaal happens to be stand out master of it.
That means he can make choices other managers shouldn't, and he did. And even he overdid it a bit, although this wave of injuries is just unlucky. What happened to Rashford is not planned, but it is something that can happen when you introduce so many youngsters. Some will disappoint and have to try again in a few months, another one will start great and make it into a great run. But at the core there are the ones like Borthwick Jackson, Varela, Pereira who don't make headlines and do have their moments that their inexperience shows, but who steadily progress and become regular squad players.
That's very short sighted and people have seem to forgotten the abject performances we have had to sit through to most of his tenure.
It has been the same all the time, Everytime we get something mildly positive, it is thought of as some sort of miracle. For example, drawing against a chelsea team at home, when they have been going through the roughest patch ever in the past decade, was seen as some sort of victory.
I am not undermining the performance yesterday. Yes, we did well with the youth players to beat Arsenal. But do we just have to be contend with that. It could possibly be the highlight of our season, in the end. Is that acceptable for this club?
People haven't forgotten that, it's just that there is such thing as improvement and learning from your mistakes. LVG seems to be doing that. Even if you leave out the theory that his hand was forced, he has clearly abandoned the slow, patient football and is allowing the team to play with more freedom for a good length of time now.
Why are people coming here every time we win a game to post ''I still want him gone'' as if someone should feel guilty about wanting him sacked before the last three wins? A few wins don't erase what's been happening all season despite the drastic drop in expectations. Let's see where we are at the end of the season in terms of trophies and league position and then we can revisit.
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What people need is a disclaimer to add to the end of all their posts:
Any happiness expressed in this post should not be interpreted as satisfaction with the season we have had, or contentment with being fifth in the table. This poster reserves the right to congratulate specific decisions taken by the manager, without endorsing all the decisions he has taken.
Any happiness expressed in this post should not be interpreted as satisfaction with the season we have had, or contentment with being fifth in the table. This poster reserves the right to congratulate specific decisions taken by the manager, without endorsing all the decisions he has taken.
You want to praise LVG? Then you just have to praise him for his ability to integrate young players into the first team, that's really the only thing that you can say and that's an extremely important ability.
I don't think we're worlds apart on this issue, to be fair. But the above simply isn't the case - yet. We went into the season as contenders: That was the impression he, himself, gave. He was reluctant to set the bar too high, granted, but struggling in the way we have for most of the season - and being in real danger of dropping out of the CL spots - was never on. Not for us - and not for him.
So, he hasn't been vindicated. Those who were worried about going into the season light - has so far been proven more right than he has.
I see what you mean. I am separating out the issues of squad depth and squad quality, which is perhaps arbitrary and a little meaningless. It seems clear we are short on quality which is why we find ourselves adrift in the league. I have banged on a lot about this maybe owing as much to the sheer volume of changes we have seen, rather than the lack of quality in the first team, but let's not get sidetracked by that, for now I am happy to admit that, as we go into March, we should be doing better, even allowing for a period of settling in.
But the bit you quoted was only really intended to suggest that we have youth players who can come in and do a job as squad players. There was a feeling we lacked cover, quite separate from the lack of quality in the first team, and I think Van Gaal's belief that we had sufficient cover to come in as replacements, and we didnt need more bodies for the sake of depth, has been vindicated.
Does anyone get the impression that knocking Liverpool out of Europe might be enough to see him stay on?
Now I've been to enough games and spent enough times in pubs all over the country to know how fickle football fans are. One big result over a rival can mean what came before it that season is very easy to forget.
That match feels like our cup final this season.
Now I've been to enough games and spent enough times in pubs all over the country to know how fickle football fans are. One big result over a rival can mean what came before it that season is very easy to forget.
That match feels like our cup final this season.
I think he'll be gone whatever happens between now and the end of the season. What happens, hypothetically if you beat Liverpool over two legs, fail to win the FA Cup, fail to win the Europa League and finish outside top four? That'd be enough to be him sacked even United keep up their excellent record vs Liverpool under van Gaal.
If it is true that a pre-contract has been signed with Mourinho, only the very best ending to the season might keep van Gaal at his job. Winning the F.A cup, winning the Europa League and qualifying for the Champions League.
Aye, I'll gladly concede that yesterday's match indeed proves that we do have players from the youth ranks who can work (at a very high level - people can say what they will about how Arsenal performed, but the level is as high as it gets domestically) as proper back-ups. In that sense he has been vindicated.
But with him there's always - I feel - two levels: The overall approach (the much maligned philosophy) and the practical, particular handling of the season as it unfolds. The former is very hard to assess for us, as mere fans - the latter has clearly been under par.
The first one does the second, does it not?
Yes, automatically too.
I'm 90% certain Mourinho to us is a done job, and I'm happy with that tbh.
Though I hope LVG ends the season on a high with us winning a trophy or even dare I say sneaking top 4 while playing attacking football with our youngsters. He deserves it after a great career and would be a fitting goodbye for him.
Though I hope LVG ends the season on a high with us winning a trophy or even dare I say sneaking top 4 while playing attacking football with our youngsters. He deserves it after a great career and would be a fitting goodbye for him.
I've always this concern that regardless of how well we do with the current gunslinging, attacking approach, Van Gaal will always be looking to revert back to a heavily focussed possession based style, relying on moments of individual brilliance to open up defences.
Around 20 people changed their vote from sacking him after the Arsenal match...
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