They won't win tonight let alone 6pts. Can't see them beating us either. But I could see a draw. Carrick - Schneiderlin should ensure that.
LVG Out Thread | BBC: Sacked!
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They won't win tonight let alone 6pts. Can't see them beating us either. But I could see a draw. Carrick - Schneiderlin should ensure that.
For my money it's not simply down to Stoke playing a more open game, thus allowing us to hit them on the break more. That is part of it, yes, in the sense that the opponent is – obviously – always a part of the equation. But the main reason we pulled off a fine display yesterday was that we were willing to risk something in order to get at their throats. That is precisely what we've been missing against sub-par teams who simply sit back and watch us pass the ball around.
We aren't that weak and shaky defensively that we absolutely cannot risk losing possession by going for the jugular in a style which – clearly – suits several of our players much better than our standard mode. Those second halves people mention above – and yesterday – prove that we are capable of capitalizing on playing with a higher degree of risk.
Would it be wise to use the high risk approach against the presumably better class of teams in the league? No, probably not at the moment: But the problem with LVG so far is that he has shunned the risk taking against most opponents, including lower tier teams: In theory it should be possible, after 18 months in charge, to be able to switch comfortably between taking risks and being cautious, all depending on the nature of the opponent.
And then there's this: The difference everyone can see isn't one between “risk” and “caution” as such. It's the difference between “risk taking, not boring and actually quite good” and “cautious, impotent and insanely dull”.
We aren't that weak and shaky defensively that we absolutely cannot risk losing possession by going for the jugular in a style which – clearly – suits several of our players much better than our standard mode. Those second halves people mention above – and yesterday – prove that we are capable of capitalizing on playing with a higher degree of risk.
Would it be wise to use the high risk approach against the presumably better class of teams in the league? No, probably not at the moment: But the problem with LVG so far is that he has shunned the risk taking against most opponents, including lower tier teams: In theory it should be possible, after 18 months in charge, to be able to switch comfortably between taking risks and being cautious, all depending on the nature of the opponent.
And then there's this: The difference everyone can see isn't one between “risk” and “caution” as such. It's the difference between “risk taking, not boring and actually quite good” and “cautious, impotent and insanely dull”.
I can't find it now but he did this interview where he also talked about his football philosophy, he was asked what is the easiest way to score and he said during the transition from defence to attack (the counter) or what he calls the third phase.
Watch how after we score the first goal (in any match) we drop off a bit and play more direct because now the opposition must come onto us and we can exploit the space behind (his philosophy is more about defending and attacking spaces than possession, when scores are level possession for him is the most effective way to create space if the opposition are reluctant to take risk).
He was very happy after Stoke as seen in his press conference. He also pointed out how Carrick said to him things are so much easier when you score early. The performance yesterday like we saw last season against Spurs which started a string of good performances was because we scored early to calm the nerves, confidence came and things were flowing so the players showed on the pitch what LvG claims they have shown on the training ground (where there is no pressure).
I don't think he liberated the players, Martial has had this same freedom for ages, Depay had freedom but his moves didn't come off so he lost his place, Rooney has had freedom but now he is more confident after a run of good games so he is more daring in his play, even when out of form he was making risky long diagonal passes, Carrick always has the freedom to pass forward and does that but now he has players moving around effectively, Mata just did what he always does however combined successfully with those around him, Lingard too has had the freedom to run at the opposition but since our attack was in sync there was a lot more space to attack.
They were just more confident after scoring early, especially with all the criticism they have received. The fans had had enough, this creates nerves because the players don't want to be boo'd off the pitch, an early goal settles those nerves.
Imagine if you are a player and the fans boo you off at the end of the game, how disappointed must you be in yourself? And then you have your friends and family talking about the way the team is playing, it's embarrassing and you want to change that, this creates pressure, an early goal reduces this.
Na, not sure about that.
I'd day the man reason for the display was simply that they managed to score an early goal. That's literally the key to this team scoring a few goals and/or playing good football. They aren't good enough to play an attractive and high-quality possession game without the cushion of an early goal (and all the psychological impact that result.)
I really don't agree with this idea that they risked more or had a change in attitude.
It's an interesting one. We all mention Arsenal and Spurs having more quality than us and having looked better than us all season, and yet they're 5 points ahead so can't be doing that much better.
Considering how woeful we've been for the majority of the season, I don't think it's unreasonable to assume that even a slight improvement in the consistency of our results will see us close the gap. Whether we will find that consistency is anyone's guess, although it's fair to say that 'something' seemed to click last night.
Thought we set up differently from most of our other matches. Neither Mata or Rooney pressed up the field and we almost seemed to allow Stoke to "play" up until they go into our half. From there, we pressed well and hit them on the counter.
We didn't play a possession game at all last night compared to what we normally do. Stoke won the possession. We didn't outplay them through keeping the ball well (as a result of having that cushion): That is patently not what occured on the night.
OK, good point. So we need to make scoring early a priority then, something we dont look like we have really done much this season.
I think it was definitely a change of tactics. We ditched possession football and were more cavalier. This wasn't the case because we scored an early goal. We started playing this "new brand" straight from the kick-off. Obviously early goals did help lift the players confidence further.
Very good point. I've been banging on about this in some form or the other. That's why I was furious with our ex players stoking the fire - because I'm pretty sure even though it's LVG getting the flack, all this negativity just comes trickling down to the team. It's one thing to get criticism from outsiders - you expect that - but when it's from your own it hinders you more than anything.
In sports you need confidence to perform. In any case, I hope they hold their nerve and continue getting results. We will see.
Why is it then when you go on who scored and check the possession stats they read prior to the first goal 56.3% to United and 43.7% to Stoke?
Louis van Gaal has done this all season, score the first goal and then he drops off looking to be more direct after winning the ball back to exploit the space left by the opposition, that's how he gets his second goal.
Ironically after we drop off people criticise him for losing control of the game! But he gives up the possession intentionally.
For the first goal though obviously he dominates the ball because he feels it's the most effective way to beat a team that doesn't want to take risk.
Therefore it's not surprising prior to Lingard's goal we dominated possession like we normally do, after that according to who scored, from the 14th minute until the end we had only 44.6% of the ball.
We got off to a good start but that's happened quite a bit this season, dominate the ball and look threatening but after 10 or 15 minutes we lose it and go back to being awful, in this match we scored and so went to the game plan for getting the second goal.
I also noticed the players weren't always playing in their designated space particularly Rooney, Mata, and Lingard. Fellaini played in midfield rather than being given multiple roles. A change from what we've seen previously. Seemed to me the shackles were taken off, and players were given more freedom to express themseves.
There have been a number of poor displays which still began with lots of attacking intent. When that early attacking intent doesn't lead to a goal, the team tends to quickly lose their way. When they manage to get a goal, things go well, or at least the team tends to play 'better' football.
I feel people are trying to convince themselves that the tactics are changing (or that the team is a tactical switch away from suddenly being really good) and everything will get better. I'm not convinced.
We can but only hope, buddy.
I never said the team won possession.I said that
(a) this team basically needs an early goal in order to play well. Whether 'playing well' is through dominating possession or being direct is irrelevant.
And (b) this team is not good enough at possession football to play it effectively over 90 minutes without scoring an early goal.
The early goal has a number of effects (e.g. opposition can't sit back, psychological boost, crowd mood, no need to over-commit...) I feel that these effects are needed in order for the team to have a good game.
Those two points have nothing to do with whether Stoke won possession or not last night.
I really don't feel we've learnt anything new from last night. It was already very clear that this team can play decent football as long as they score early. The issues arise whenever they don't, which happens quite often.
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They don't, if you make them in isolation - fair enough.
But the possession stats of last night are very relevant if we consider them an indication of an actual change in our (LVG's) approach.
Unless I completely misunderstand you, what you propose is that we didn't do anything last night which was out of the ordinary - we only happened to score an early goal, and from there on out we kept floating on the confidence this gave us.
But this doesn't explain several aspects of last night's performance. It doesn't explain why we ended up losing the possession (which is highly unusual), for one thing. Nor why LVG opted for Mata in a central, playmaker role - or why he (at least seemingly) was fine with Fellaini playing a very non-holder like midfield role (the usual preferance has been a triangle, two at the base - this was much more like a DM-CM-AM combo).
Some of it may be sheer happenstance, but not all of it.
I'm in the similar vein of thought. One great performance against an out of form Stoke at home does not at all change what has happened the past month and a half.
We still need to be looking elsewhere for the future.
You have to also wonder how much of it has to do with Stoke deciding to have a proper go at us and not parking the bus to try and hit us on the counter like Southampton did. Stoke had a lot more confidence to get something from this game after beating us in the home fixture.
We have already established after scoring we played a more counter attacking direct game, why would we stick to our positions when hitting Stoke on the counter?
United had 56.3% of the ball prior to the first goal, so yes we did play possession but obviously after we score since the opposition are chasing the game we are more direct, this is how Louis van Gaal gets his second goal.
You know all those times posters have complained about how we lose control of the game after scoring, how we drop off and let the opposition onto us, well that's intentional.
His philosophy is defending and attacking space, possession is only important to him when the opposition don't give him space to attack.
I felt there was an obvious shift in style. They were far more positive in possession and far less concerned with ball retention. No idea why it suddenly happened yesterday and no idea if it will happen again. Why would LVG spend 18 months trying to play a certain way only to abandon it?
Broadly agree, and so did Van Gaal. He was adamant last night that nothing had changed, and I mostly agree.
What was different last night is that Van Gaal gave the players roles they were comfortable with. Football is in the head as well as the boots, and that stuff matters.
When a player is confident their performance improves. Van Gaal has a tendency to do things that visibly confuse players e.g. Switching tactics mid game or game to game.
If a player is not sure of his role, or what he's meant to be doing, his performance will suffer. That has often been the consequence of Van Gaal's 'genius'.
Last night Van Gaal just kept it simple, let the players continue to find their rhythm in roles they know. Not shocking it worked. More shocking it's taken Van Gaal until now to stop experimenting. That being said, I wouldn't be shocked if United play 3-4-3 at Chelsea. It's Van Gaal after all...
he said in interview after the game he has told the players nothing different, the reporter insinuated he must have changed the gameplan
That's to be expected. He's not going to admit everything he's been doing for 18 months has been wrong. It was clearly different imo.
On a positive note at least we saw that they still have it in them to play good football when left off the leash. The Manchester United brand of football isn't gone forever. They are good players, they've just been used really badly for a long time.
He's a very strange man. This time last year he was still trying to play 3-5-2, and treating Herrera like a non-person. Then, because we lost to Arsenal in the Cup, he gave into pressure and put round pegs into round holes. No more Rooney in midfield etc.
It seems to be a trait of his that he will make it as hard as possible to do the bleeding obvious. Then when he does it e.g. Mata at #10 he will act as if nobody could see Mata wasn't a winger (something he has even said in pressers!)
Not sure of LvG changed his stubborn mind or the players told him to feck off with his philosophy, but the team has been playing a lot differently. More movement, more forward passing and more risk taking.
Be interesting to see what happens Sunday.
LvG in
You better be in the upcoming WW game!
Just like it took several bad games to make me turn against LVG, it'll take several good games for me to back him again. But yesterday was a great start.
First and foremost we need to have the right set up with the right people. Only then we can improve our squad, youth development, decision making etc.
Regardless if he turns this season around or not Manchester United should be crying out for Mourinho to become manager at the start of next season, United want top players for there commerical appeal that will not happen with LVG in the hot seat, United want success that wont happen with LVG in the hotseat heck sake they never expected it to happen they wanted LVG to help rebuild squad and off load players, he has did this and more, United have to make a statement to Cities intent, United cant be foolish enough to miss out on Mourinho I believe it will happen and am fairly confident, for they wanted Ancelotti to take over in the summer the approach has been well documented I believe either ancelotti or his agent stated the approach, United must be fully focused on change this summer it proved it with no business in January even though our squad was thin as ice.
You know what? I have been paying really close attention to LVG in 2016, He looks like he has been focusing all of his attention to Rooney (this is crucial) by sheer power or focus and attention on his boot and I shit you not he scores. It has a huge success rate and I believe it has counter balanced the Old Trafford crowd who are expecting bad performances, they create a negative morphic resonance which transmits to the players and therefore results in a bad performance.
If we can put in 4 or 5 performances like that in a row then maybe we can talk. There's been far too many false dawns, as good as the Stoke game was.
I have to agree with you there. His powers of focussing have been really well used in 2016 and I can't for the life of me understand why anyone would want him out.
See what happens when I've been awake 30+ hours, I can't stop thinking about fords!
Far too many, Past the point of no return for me. Unless we go unbeaten for the rest of the reason it's time for a change. We had this same false dawn last season towards the end to.
Even if he makes 4th place he still has to go in the summer. I doubt we are going to fire him now anyways. Feb is quite an easy month. So he will probably pick up a few wins. I hope we dont keep him for another season and more importantly wont give him another penny to spend. Two entire seasons is plenty of time to give a manager to improve and turn things around. If he makes 4th place there is literally no improvement with us exiting the Champions League in the group stages and finishing the same place in the table from a year ago.
Who, LVG?
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