LVG Out Thread | BBC: Sacked!

[Nick 0208 Ldn]

I ask again, what do the people who want him sacked now want the club to do?

Maybe not right this very moment but sooner rather than later i think. If the team's form doesn't improve it is likely that any evaluating will be taking place outside of the Champions League; the board similarly delayed its intervention against Moyes, and ultimately it was to the club's detriment. Better that we part company in time to affect events, than dazedly drift towards May fully aware the manager is incapable.

And with there being a Euros this coming summer it can only be to our benefitl for any successor to be in post as soon as possible. The alternative is that Woodward spends pre-tournament period following up LVG's unwise targets, whilst simultaneously being used as a pawn by one of Ancelotti or Guardiola.

 

[Striker10]

I would offer him another role - and his staff might be worth keeping but I think the club need a change. He's set down a foundation and let's be honest he's been 1) unlucky with injuries and 2) he lost a defense before starting in Evra, Ferdinand and Vidic and obviously he sold Rafael. I think we'd have won the league this year with Ronaldo - I agree with him there. Having said that, I think we need to look at someone long term. People say, Sir Matt and Sir Alex were 'freaks' but they weren't and it's actually in the clubs nature to give people a chance. The fact is we don't even know if LVG will extend his contract, so we need to rehire with the foundations we have in place.

We're obviously defensive because of our deficiencies. We can't expect youth to produce week after week. LVG has to be given credit for much of what he's done but the right man is out there. We just have to find him.

 

[Sammyjunn]

Nah, I just think it's ridiculous to say we're only doing well because other teams are doing worse. Like, duh. That's the way leagues work.

But the point is, we arent really doing well. Just ticks on acceptable, it's not everythi special and if we dont win 2 times, we're 6th, our current league ranking doesnt really say a lot. Says something about the Premier League tho.

 

[acnumber9]

That's Chelsea's problem, not ours. May as well say City only won it 2013/14 because we collapsed.

Those are fair points but you can't say we're progressing because we've stood still while others have declined. If we were really improving we'd be top.

 

[DWelbz19]

"Football is for the fans. They want to see good football."

Rafael

Probably why he was binned, like.

 

[Ananke]

I don't often post, but here's what I think.

As long as we don't drop out of qualifying for the CL, he should be allowed to see out his contract....UNLESS, Guardiola is available at the end of the season. Why? Well...

1 - He was brought in to do a job. His brief from the board was to steady the ship, improve the team and win a title if possible. As has been said many times, that's something he's done before at big clubs. For me, he's doing that. He's playing youth. He's buying prospects. He's building from the back (as Fergie always did, if we were having bad times) and we're within touching distance of the title. He's doing what the board tasked him with, to be fair.

2 - Pep and Carlo aside, who do you get? I'd have maybe said Klopp, but that's about it. Giggs would be a ridiculous move, at this point in time, imho. So, unless we can get either of those two, it'd be a bad move, looking at the big picture of things, to get rid of LVG. At the end of next season, when he does leave, whoever takes over at that point will have a solid foundation to work with. Thats what he means by "process", I believe. He's rebuilding the club that was left in a mess by lack of investment in the last two seasons under Fergie and the Moyes debacle. The result was that the whole squad pretty much went to shit. LVG is sorting that out.

Injuries permitting, we're a left-back, a top striker and a forward-thinking midfielder away from a CL contender squad, imo. If we can get Rooney out of the door and get Woody to snap up a mobile, clinical #9 and Bale or a forward of similar ilk, from a squad point of view, we're well on our way. There are more factors, other than just personel, of course....which brings me to...

Style. Sure, the style of football is boring. Really....fecking....boring. But I honestly think that between that and the fans' inevitable, massive, expectation for results that comes with being a United manager, some people are just not seeing the bigger picture of what he was brought in to do by the board.

On the subject of expectations; When he was brought in I'm quite sure that most fans' expectations were pretty much the same as mine. First season - back in CL. Second season - challenging for the league and CL group qualification. Third season - We should be winning the league or CL. Anything more is a bonus. So, aside from the obvious, he's on track. He's rebuilding the squad and playing youth. He's going to leave the club in a solid position. I think we as fans need to look at the big picture, ride out the shit football, get behind him and we will be better off for it in the long run.

Unless we can get Pep.

Regarding the money he's had available. Yeah, he's spent a lot but let's be fair, Di Maria - 60m - accounts for a quarter of that money. Who the feck expected that to turn out the way it did? So we've got...

Herrera, Shaw, Blind - all very good players with plenty of years left.
Memphis, Martial - young, potentially top talent, not quite there.
Schweinsteiger - brought in for his experience and leadership (which we sorely lacked and was what we were all crying out for 18 months ago) hasn't done it, but early days.
Schneiderlin, Rojo, Darmian - not amazing buys but good and should become good first teamers or at least fringe players.

So, has he really bought bad? Honestly?

To put it into a bit of perspective, that's nine players - ten, if we count Di Maria - City's front five cost £200m.

Also, for those that have only known good times with attacking, entertaining football and don't already know; ask the older fans about the Sexton & Atkinson era. They'll tell you about how, after the steaming pile of shit we were turning out under Sexton, Atkinson was brought in to play attacking, entertaining football, like we had previously under Busby. It was good and pleased the fans for a while and then results went to shit and that became the issue. So we brought in a hard-headed manager to sort things out from the ground up. His first few years were poor, we were playing comparatively defensive and boring football, not getting great results and people wanted him sacked, but he was clearing out dead wood, playing youth, building a foundation. He only ended up being at the helm through the club's most stable and most dominant era, dontchya know!.

Now, of course I'm not suggesting that LVG will do that. I believe that there will never be anyone to emulate Fergie in my lifetime, in fact. My point is, I believe that we need that kind of manager at this point in time and that people need to get over the modern day, media-fueled need for instant gratification, look past the relatively boring football we're currently playing at this moment in time - something that we've not been used to for an unprecedented number of years and, in fact, many NEVER have experienced - and then consider the bigger picture.

LVG will pass the club onto the next guy in a miles better state than he found it. Tactics, formations, training methods and, yes, even philosophies can all be re-evaluated and changed within a couple of months by a new manager. It's not like we'll never be able to play entertaining ever again!

Right now, though, I think we need LVG and getting rid would be the worst thing we could do.

Unless we can get Pep.

Always get Pep.

Pep.

Fantastic post mate. Agree with everything on there.

 

[Tyrion]

It's interesting to hear him say that we need to "evolve" our expectations from 5/10 years ago and then bring up achievements from 10 or 20 years ago.

 

[WyoManU]

Lowering expectations to the press now. The end is nigh. How can a Man Utd manager tell its fans to "get real" about expectations and state that our financial advantage isn't really all that great? The only reason our money isn't making us better is because of this clown and his decisions. Maybe LVG needs to take some of his own medicine and just realize that he may be the problem.

 

[JaffyJoe]

I've been LVG out for about a year. I saw enough from about January last season. We haven't improved as a team. After coming and promising titles and success he has now said we should revaluate our expectations. For me there isn't any outstanding team in England so for him to even utter these words sicken me. He has spent North of 200 million and has sold talented players for much lower than their market value. We are STILL 2/3 payers from being a good team, I don't trust him to spend the money correctly. The only thing I can credit him for is bringing in youngsters. If he feels a young player has talent he will play him and for our upcoming talents its a great feeling that their promising play and talent will be rewarded.

 

[Red Dreams]

funny Brocky mentioning Sexton era. Was thinking that last night. Yeah it was pretty painful to watch. I thought we played some very good football under Atkinson until he lost his way....perhaps Robbo being injured so much.

The main thing I am concerned currently with the team is the lack of 'character' The belief.

I still have hopes for this team. Today will be a big test after being kicked of the CL. Lets see how they perform.

 

[alibaba]

lets see how Gary Neville is doing .....Ifr he dos good get him and Giggsy in

 

[JPRouve]

I'm not going to make a long post because the issue is very simple. The only thing LVG built is a roster, in 18 months he hasn't built a team, he hasn't built from the back since our back relies solely on individuals and our ability to keep the ball.
The one thing he managed to do in 18 months is hypnotizing a part of the fanbase.

 

[Brocky]

I disagree with the notion that we should not sack LVG because Pep and Ancelotti is not available. What if they are never available?

I am starting to believe the players are starting to lose faith in him and if this continues on, there is no reason for him to stay. At this point he is doing more damage to the squad than rebuild it



Yet it takes LVG more than 18 months???

He is only contracted for another 18 months. I very much doubt that he or the board will take things beyond that. My rhetorical question was asked with that in mind. Who would you say that we get, going on the assumption that this campaign to get him out is successful in the next month or two and Carlo & Pep aren't available?

How do you know the players are losing faith? Honestly, you don't. You think you know, because the media / social media / other people's opinion tells you. Besides that, we have no factual evidence.

Anyway, my post and overall opinion is based on looking at the bigger picture. Honestly, I think that a huge chunk of fans are missing that and are now more interested in the next managerial witch-hunt and looking for the quick fix.

 

[Catt]

This thread will be active tonight I reckon.

 

[bleedred]

He is only contracted for another 18 months. I very much doubt that he or the board will take things beyond that. My rhetorical question was asked with that in mind. Who would you say that we get, going on the assumption that this campaign to get him out is successful in the next month or two and Carlo & Pep aren't available?

I have reached a point where I will let Giggs take over till summer and see where we stand.

How do you know the players are losing faith? Honestly, you don't. You think you know, because the media / social media / other people's opinion tells you. Besides that, we have no factual evidence.

There is no way a player is going to come out and say that they have lost faith in him. We see it in the performances. Also did you hear what Rafael said today. Blaming every player after a loss is clearly going to inspire them, won't it?

Anyway, my post and overall opinion is based on looking at the bigger picture. Honestly, I think that a huge chunk of fans are missing that and are now more interested in the next managerial witch-hunt and looking for the quick fix.

What is the bigger picture? He has been constantly moving the goalposts and lowering fans expectations. and suggesting fans are looking for a quick fix is patronising.

 

[UnitedinRed]

To be honest, I don't understand the link between Rooney not scoring goals and Hernandez re-becoming his old self goalscorer in a different environment.

Hernandez dropped down several levels andnstaryed scoring. Pretty sure Rooney would be firing them in if he played in the MLS for example. Dropping down in quality will always make decent players look better.

 

[UnitedinRed]

Ok. Hernandez had and continues to have a good scoring record. People pointing that out are accused of rewriting history. You then talk about Rooney for some reason. And I'm the one failing to understand? I don't think you have a single clue what point you're trying to make at all.

Oh well. If its not in the simplest terms , you're lost. That's been clear for a while. You're not alone though

 

[JPRouve]

Hernandez dropped down several levels andnstaryed scoring. Pretty sure Rooney would be firing them in if he played in the MLS for example. Dropping down in quality will always make decent players look better.

Honestly, you should be slapped for that post . The Bundesliga is a great league with high level football and Hernandez is playing well in CL too.
The arrogance of PL fans knows no boundaries.

 

[gooDevil]

Evra wanted to go, iirc Van gaal wanted him to stay.

You might be right, details often trade seats in my memory.

 

[Balu]

Honestly, you should be slapped for that post . The Bundesliga is a great league with high level football and Hernandez is playing well in CL too.
The arrogance of PL fans knows no boundaries.

Hernandez' record in the Bundesliga isn't that special anyway. 7 goals in 12 games, a goal every 124minutes. His minutes/goal rate in the league this season is pretty much the same as it was in the PL under Ferguson and at Real (slightly worse actually). Only the Moyes season stands out as significantly worse.

 

[gooDevil]

Sounds like Heaven. 7 goals in 12 games? From a single player??

 

[UnitedinRed]

Honestly, you should be slapped for that post . The Bundesliga is a great league with high level football and Hernandez is playing well in CL too.
The arrogance of PL fans knows no boundaries.

Its still dropping down. And he certainly doesn't have anything like the pressure he had at United or Madrid.

 

[JPRouve]

Hernandez' record in the Bundesliga isn't that special anyway. 7 goals in 12 games, a goal every 124minutes. His minutes/goal rate in the league this season is pretty much the same as it was in the PL under Ferguson and at Real (slightly worse actually). Only the Moyes season stands out as significantly worse.

Yeah, he is just playing like he used to, the Bundesliga isn't inflating his numbers.

 

[Brocky]

I have reached a point where I will let Giggs take over till summer and see where we stand.



There is no way a player is going to come out and say that they have lost faith in him. We see it in the performances. Also did you hear what Rafael said today. Blaming every player after a loss is clearly going to inspire them, won't it?



What is the bigger picture? He has been constantly moving the goalposts and lowering fans expectations. and suggesting fans are looking for a quick fix is patronising.

Will Giggs ensure that we qualify for CL next season? Will changing the manager for someone that has never held a full management position, at this stage of the season, with the injury crisis that we have put us in a better position, as a club, than where we are now?

I don't think so. I'll tell you one sure thing that appointing Giggs does. It, ironically, lowers our expectations, as happened when LVG was brought in. People were all about looking at the bigger picture then. 18 months later and it's all forgotten. He was given a brief that he's fulfilling.

I will make it clear. I don't see myself as an LVG sympathiser, as people like to throw about. I hate the football we're playing. I find his some of his decisions baffling. I think his approach to the CL was poor, for a manager of his experience. But what I don't get, is that people now want him out when, at this moment, it would do us no good whatsoever. Football fans are largely fickle. We always look to get the next shiny thing, if things aren't going amazingly well. We rejoice when the next shiny thing comes along. When it doesn't quite work out how as we'd like, as we have been used to, we want the next shiny thing to make everything right again.

Right now, I think we'd be mad to oust him. It does our next few games - important and largely winnable games - no good. It does our season no good. It does our chances of CL qualification no good. It does the long-term future of the club more harm than good. In fact, the only good I see, would be that the fans will get to see some nicer football.

Honestly, I can't see him being sacked before the end of the season. I suppose most of the people that want him out would also agree. So why further fuel the media jizz-fest? Why not get behind the club, ride out the storm and see where it takes us by the end of the season?

Someone said in a post I read about how Fergie would've used this to instill a 'Us Vs them' mentality and it would be interesting to see if that's something that will happen under LVG. I'd agree. That's what he needs to do. However, when half of 'them' are United fans, then all you have is a unit divided and, subsequently, conquered.

 

[Chesterlestreet]

Hernandez dropped down several levels andnstaryed scoring. Pretty sure Rooney would be firing them in if he played in the MLS for example. Dropping down in quality will always make decent players look better.

Yeah. But Rooney wouldn't be firing them in if he played, on current form, for one of the better Bundesliga sides. I don't understand this need to rationalize every single move LVG makes in order to defend him. That is what you're doing, for my money.

Hernandez is an excellent goal scorer. But that doesn't mean LVG was horribly wrong to let him go. For several reasons, keeping him on the books wasn't on. Leave it at that, rather than downplaying his ability in order to make it seem as though LVG shipped out a sub-par player.

 

[JPRouve]

Yeah. But Rooney wouldn't be firing them in if he played, on current form, for one of the better Bundesliga sides. I don't understand this need to rationalize every single move LVG makes in order to defend him. That is what you're doing, for my money.

Hernandez is an excellent goal scorer. But that doesn't mean LVG was horribly wrong to let him go. For several reasons, keeping him on the books wasn't on. Leave it at that, rather than downplaying his ability in order to make it seem as though LVG shipped out a sub-par player.

Exactly, I still think that it was the right move, Hernandez needed to play in a different environment. But Hernandez is a good player.

 

[Timdbro]

Regarding the money he's had available. Yeah, he's spent a lot but let's be fair, Di Maria - 60m - accounts for a quarter of that money. Who the feck expected that to turn out the way it did? So we've got...

Herrera, Shaw, Blind - all very good players with plenty of years left.
Memphis, Martial - young, potentially top talent, not quite there.
Schweinsteiger - brought in for his experience and leadership (which we sorely lacked and was what we were all crying out for 18 months ago) hasn't done it, but early days.
Schneiderlin, Rojo, Darmian - not amazing buys but good and should become good first teamers or at least fringe players.

So, has he really bought bad? Honestly?

I agreed with almost everything in this post, and I wanted to specifically pick up on this topic of the transfer activity and the "LVG has spent 9999 Billion squids" posts all over the place.

The truth is, other than Falcao (whose loan didn't cost much and was a punt literally everyone was happy we took) and Di Maria (who was a mistake given that LVG didn't know what to do with him, but one on whom we recouped 85% of the transfer fee), LVG has been very selfless with his transfer activity, buying players that either stabilise us or are just flat out for the future. The guy knows he won't be here any further than 2017, and he won't reap the biggest rewards from Martial, Memphis, Shaw, Darmian, or maybe even Herrera and Schneiderlin and Rojo, who are still improving. He also won't reap the rewards from playing Lingard, Varela, Mcnair, Borthwick-Jackson or whatever other young lads he decides to play, these are things that will benefit his successor.

He's absolutely doing the right things for us in the medium/long term, and whilst the CL exit was undoubtedly a big and avoidable blow, the only reason we should be firing him mid-season is if we completely lose our shit and start looking lost like we did late on in Moyes' season. We can reassess at the end of the season, at which point obvious reasons for firing him would be either failing to make top four, or abandoning the bedding in of the 5-6 new first XI players we have this season - which is the other thing few people mention. It's not that surprising that a first XI half full of new players isn't the most cohesive yet, and this doesn't worry me at all yet, they've only had a few months together. If, by March-April we don't see improvement in the attacking play, that would be a more of a cause for concern.

 

[amolbhatia50k]

So am I. If they maintain the excellent progress made with him I'm charge, that might change. He's brought through young players, English players fwiw and got Spurs playing some good football.

Definitely among my picks for managers to replace LVG. But I'd like to see him deliver something tangible like top 4 first. I think he's got a team that can beat Liverpool to 4th this season. In fact I'm expecting them to based on their football this season. Let's see if he can do that.

 

[bleedred]

Will Giggs ensure that we qualify for CL next season? Will changing the manager for someone that has never held a full management position, at this stage of the season, with the injury crisis that we have put us in a better position, as a club, than where we are now?

I don't think so. I'll tell you one sure thing that appointing Giggs does. It, ironically, lowers our expectations, as happened when LVG was brought in. People were all about looking at the bigger picture then. 18 months later and it's all forgotten. He was given a brief that he's fulfilling.

The expectations have already been lowered by LVG. He has been constantly moving the goalposts and saying things like fans dont understand what I am doing. That's so condescending.

As for Giggs' appointment. I don't know. Nothing is a guarantee in football. Can LVG ensure the CL position?.

Your argument seems to be that we have no one better than LVG on paper, so its better to stick with him than risk it. I don't agree with that

I will make it clear. I don't see myself as an LVG sympathiser, as people like to throw about. I hate the football we're playing. I find his some of his decisions baffling. I think his approach to the CL was poor, for a manager of his experience. But what I don't get, is that people now want him out when, at this moment, it would do us no good whatsoever. Football fans are largely fickle. We always look to get the next shiny thing, if things aren't going amazingly well. We rejoice when the next shiny thing comes along. When it doesn't quite work out how as we'd like, as we have been used to, we want the next shiny thing to make everything right again.

Right now, I think we'd be mad to oust him. It does our next few games - important and largely winnable games - no good. It does our season no good. It does our chances of CL qualification no good. It does the long-term future of the club more harm than good. In fact, the only good I see, would be that the fans will get to see some nicer football.

At what point do you think its right to sack him?. The top 6 are so close. We are 3 points from top and also at the sametime 3 points off losing top 4 place as well. So what if keeping him longer hinders our chance of a CL position next year (which we can agree is more than minimum of his expectations)

As we have seen from ths season, no game is "winnable". and we have been fecked up many of these "winnable" games.

Honestly, I can't see him being sacked before the end of the season. I suppose most of the people that want him out would also agree. So why further fuel the media jizz-fest? Why not get behind the club, ride out the storm and see where it takes us by the end of the season?

Someone said in a post I read about how Fergie would've used this to instill a 'Us Vs them' mentality and it would be interesting to see if that's something that will happen under LVG. I'd agree. That's what he needs to do. However, when half of 'them' are United fans, then all you have is a unit divided and, subsequently, conquered.

The reason many seem skeptical is that at that point, it may become too late. Like I said, at what point do you think its fair to sack him. The way this season is going the top 4/5 looks very close and we may lose out top 4 in the last few weeks. Is that acceptable?

 

[K2K]

Honestly, you should be slapped for that post . The Bundesliga is a great league with high level football and Hernandez is playing well in CL too.
The arrogance of PL fans knows no boundaries.

He also scored against that club that copied Crystal Palace's kit in midweek.

Goal in the last minute of a UCL quarterfinal to send his side through just last season.

I think Fellaini is still a better option though.

 

[UnitedinRed]

Yeah. But Rooney wouldn't be firing them in if he played, on current form, for one of the better Bundesliga sides. I don't understand this need to rationalize every single move LVG makes in order to defend him. That is what you're doing, for my money.

Hernandez is an excellent goal scorer. But that doesn't mean LVG was horribly wrong to let him go. For several reasons, keeping him on the books wasn't on. Leave it at that, rather than downplaying his ability in order to make it seem as though LVG shipped out a sub-par player.

It kind of does, in theory anyway. In practice it doesn't always work out like that but should Rooney drop down a level or two, he would probably score more goals. Even on the form he is currently in.

Many players have done just that once they peak and can't reach those heights again.

Hernandez had a poor attitude for me, in the end that's what cost him. You see Lingard, Varela and other young lads grabbing the chance while Hernandez simply didn't. He was duely sold.

People should be asking why Hernandez was soon poor for us when he's scoring goals now, though not as impressively as the plucked stats suggest.

 

[afrocentricity]

Will Giggs ensure that we qualify for CL next season? Will changing the manager for someone that has never held a full management position, at this stage of the season, with the injury crisis that we have put us in a better position, as a club, than where we are now?

I don't think so. I'll tell you one sure thing that appointing Giggs does. It, ironically, lowers our expectations, as happened when LVG was brought in. People were all about looking at the bigger picture then. 18 months later and it's all forgotten. He was given a brief that he's fulfilling.

I will make it clear. I don't see myself as an LVG sympathiser, as people like to throw about. I hate the football we're playing. I find his some of his decisions baffling. I think his approach to the CL was poor, for a manager of his experience. But what I don't get, is that people now want him out when, at this moment, it would do us no good whatsoever. Football fans are largely fickle. We always look to get the next shiny thing, if things aren't going amazingly well. We rejoice when the next shiny thing comes along. When it doesn't quite work out how as we'd like, as we have been used to, we want the next shiny thing to make everything right again.

Right now, I think we'd be mad to oust him. It does our next few games - important and largely winnable games - no good. It does our season no good. It does our chances of CL qualification no good. It does the long-term future of the club more harm than good. In fact, the only good I see, would be that the fans will get to see some nicer football.

Honestly, I can't see him being sacked before the end of the season. I suppose most of the people that want him out would also agree. So why further fuel the media jizz-fest? Why not get behind the club, ride out the storm and see where it takes us by the end of the season?

Someone said in a post I read about how Fergie would've used this to instill a 'Us Vs them' mentality and it would be interesting to see if that's something that will happen under LVG. I'd agree. That's what he needs to do. However, when half of 'them' are United fans, then all you have is a unit divided and, subsequently, conquered.

Spot on mate... We're on the same page. Shame some can't see how short sighted they are being but arguing against it is getting tiresome...

 

[JPRouve]

Spot on mate... We're on the same page. Shame some can't see how short sighted they are being but arguing against it is getting tiresome...

After 18 months we don't have a team, we have a sum of individualities. So unless LVG find a recipe that he failed to find in 18 months, we will just have a team after 36 months, not a top team but just a team. That's pretty bad by every standards.

 

[afrocentricity]

After 18 months we don't have a team, we have a sum of individualities. So unless LVG find a recipe that he failed to find in 18 months, we will just have a team after 36 months, not a top team but just a team. That's pretty bad by every standards.

Yea, but sacking him now has a high risk of throwing the team into turmoil and making things worse. Not really keen on taking that gamble... Of course if a Pep was available then I'd be more inclined...

 

[Chesterlestreet]

It kind of does, in theory anyway. In practice it doesn't always work out like that but should Rooney drop down a level or two, he would probably score more goals. Even on the form he is currently in.

Many players have done just that once they peak and can't reach those heights again.

Hernandez had a poor attitude for me, in the end that's what cost him. You see Lingard, Varela and other young lads grabbing the chance while Hernandez simply didn't. He was duely sold.

People should be asking why Hernandez was soon poor for us when he's scoring goals now, though not as impressively as the plucked stats suggest.

1. Rooney wouldn't be dropping down as much as two levels if he were to go to the Bundesliga and play for a club like Leverkusen. If he went across the Atlantic, then yes, possibly - but you're not doing your argument any favours by downplaying the level of the Bundesliga.

2. Hernandez having a poor attitude seems like an impression on your part more than anything. He has never struck me as such.

3. He failed to impress for us when he was called upon to play in a more demanding role. He isn't a complete, modern style striker. His overall game is lacking if we're talking about being able to lead the line as a forward who is expected to contribute significantly in other areas than finishing. This was obvious from the very beginning with him: He needs service in order to shine. But he can function brilliantly in the right set-up, not least as a player you throw on when you need a goal. The latter was the part I hoped we could offer him, long term. An OGS style impact player, if you will. Didn't work out, though - and sometimes things simply don't.

 

[JPRouve]

Yea, but sacking him now has a high risk of throwing the team into turmoil and making things worse. Not really keen on taking that gamble... Of course if a Pep was available then I'd be more inclined...

I understand that, I wanted to say that in response to @Brocky post. I feel that almost everyone sees that something is wrong but some of us are afraid to see the club in turmoil if we sack LVG.
Personally, I think that he has his head firmly in his backside and will fail, because I know that he is a good coach, I know that he knows his football and when someone like him fails to create the beginning of a team after 18 months and a lot of money, something is really wrong.

 

[Brocky]

I agreed with almost everything in this post, and I wanted to specifically pick up on this topic of the transfer activity and the "LVG has spent 9999 Billion squids" posts all over the place.

The truth is, other than Falcao (whose loan didn't cost much and was a punt literally everyone was happy we took) and Di Maria (who was a mistake given that LVG didn't know what to do with him, but one on whom we recouped 85% of the transfer fee), LVG has been very selfless with his transfer activity, buying players that either stabilise us or are just flat out for the future. The guy knows he won't be here any further than 2017, and he won't reap the biggest rewards from Martial, Memphis, Shaw, Darmian, or maybe even Herrera and Schneiderlin and Rojo, who are still improving. He also won't reap the rewards from playing Lingard, Varela, Mcnair, Borthwick-Jackson or whatever other young lads he decides to play, these are things that will benefit his successor.

He's absolutely doing the right things for us in the medium/long term, and whilst the CL exit was undoubtedly a big and avoidable blow, the only reason we should be firing him mid-season is if we completely lose our shit and start looking lost like we did late on in Moyes' season. We can reassess at the end of the season, at which point obvious reasons for firing him would be either failing to make top four, or abandoning the bedding in of the 5-6 new first XI players we have this season - which is the other thing few people mention. It's not that surprising that a first XI half full of new players isn't the most cohesive yet, and this doesn't worry me at all yet, they've only had a few months together. If, by March-April we don't see improvement in the attacking play, that would be a more of a cause for concern.

Exactly. This "He's spent £200m quid!!" argument is insane. I don't think that many would find disagreement with my assessment, albeit basic, of the players bought. So why is that even being brought up in every other post and media article? It's completely unfounded media hyperbole, imo.

The expectations have already been lowered by LVG. He has been constantly moving the goalposts and saying things like fans dont understand what I am doing. That's so condescending.

As for Giggs' appointment. I don't know. Nothing is a guarantee in football. Can LVG ensure the CL position?.

No. Of course not. But, given the pretty basic choice of throwing out a proven manager for a debut one, at this stage of the season, with the crisis we have, I know which guy I would put my money on.

Your argument seems to be that we have no one better than LVG on paper, so its better to stick with him than risk it. I don't agree with that

There is no argument. Just opinion. And you not agreeing with it is fair enough. As I said, I would put my money on LVG over Giggs.

At what point do you think its right to sack him?.

Not before the end of the season, that's for sure. I'd consider him not qualifying for CL a failure in his assigned task, as I am sure the board would.

The top 6 are so close. We are 3 points from top and also at the sametime 3 points off losing top 4 place as well. So what if keeping him longer hinders our chance of a CL position next year (which we can agree is more than minimum of his expectations)

And what if keeping him does mean we get CL qualification? Look, people can talk 'what ifs' all day. As you rightly said, we just don't know. All we can do is express our opinion on what we see. I see that, Pep or Carlo aside, right now, there is nobody worth the risk. Also, as I said in my initial post, I also see the bigger picture. I can invest more faith in the notion that LVG will leave the club in a better position than he found it, whether it be six or 18 months from now, than I can in binning him now and bringing in an interim solution.

As we have seen from ths season, no game is "winnable". and we have been fecked up many of these "winnable" games.

No game is winnable? So we've won no games? Seriously, though. Bournemouth, Stoke, Chelsea and another I can't recall. We have a very good chance of at least nine points there. So they are important and winnable games. Of course, you can't guarantee a win, but that's life, right?

The reason many seem skeptical is that at that point, it may become too late. Like I said, at what point do you think its fair to sack him. The way this season is going the top 4/5 looks very close and we may lose out top 4 in the last few weeks. Is that acceptable?

See above.

 

[Brocky]

I understand that, I wanted to say that in response to @Brocky post. I feel that almost everyone sees that something is wrong but some of us are afraid to see the club in turmoil if we sack LVG.
Personally, I think that he has his head firmly in his backside and will fail, because I know that he is a good coach, I know that he knows his football and when someone like him fails to create the beginning of a team after 18 months and a lot of money, something is really wrong.

This what I am talking about.

Look at my initial post, where I listed my opinions on the players that LVG's £200m has bought. Do you disgree?

 

[JPRouve]

This what I am talking about.

Look at my initial post, where I listed my opinions on the players that LVG's £200m has bought. Do you disgree?

And I said numerous times that it's the one good thing he did, he brought good players. If he was a DOF, he would have had 18 good months but he isn't. His job is to create a football team not a roster, the only reason we are not in midtable is because our players are actually talented, we are not in the top 4 because of how they play as a team but because of how they individually managed to create miracles.
We don't need a buyer for the next 18 months, we need a coach and a game manager.

 

[K2K]

Yea, but sacking him now has a high risk of throwing the team into turmoil and making things worse. Not really keen on taking that gamble... Of course if a Pep was available then I'd be more inclined...

Rafa Benitez, Roberto Di Matteo and Guus Hiddink at Chelsea (the team that has had any serious managerial changes mid-season and most similar in terms of objectives ) have shown that that the complete opposite is also true.

A change might actually galvanise. Someone like Ancelotti is renowned as on of the best man managers in the game. That's one thing that can make players play much better.

Of course there's risk, both positibe and negative risk.