LVG Out Thread | BBC: Sacked!

[ghagua]

Obviously Woodward knows more about running a club. The team has shown progress in the last two matches. Even though United lost to Stoke and drew with Chelsea, even though this small amount of progress is small for United's stature, what you need to remember is, we are no longer that special club which we were under Fergie. We are a normal club with ups and downs now. So we will get out of this rut, it will just take a bit of time and patience, if CL is gone for next season, he will get LVG off anyway.

There is no candidate available to take over currently. For you, Jose might be the guy, but for the club, maybe no Jose. Woody is doing what he thinks is best for the club and there are a lot of fans who still agree with him.

Anyway you look at it, LVG is currently the best guy to get United out of this mess.

If LvG stays until the end of the season, and a big if at that, then United will be lucky to finish in the top 8. Also, didn't want Maureen anywhere near our club, but he may be the logical choice if we want to win anything in the near future.

 

[RedPnutz]

They are businessmen who own a billion dollar business, they should logically have done what City did when they got in Tixi Bergestein, a modern football man who knows how to operate in the modern era, not ask two old age pensioners who have misty eyed views to have input in major decisions that shape the club. Fergie was still a great man manager and knew the PL better than anyone, that is not the same as being good at overseeing football operations and the fact is his whole transfer mentality showed how out of date he had gotten, man management and club management aren't the same IMO.

Perhaps. I still don't know what a DOF does though.

 

[Devil may care]

Perhaps. I still don't know what a DOF does though.

They lead the selection of manager and the acquisition of players for said manager.

 

[Red Dreams]

They lead the selection of manager and the acquisition of players for said manager.

Is that not what Woodward does now?

 

[ryansgirl]

To the anti Louis Van Gaal brigade - be careful what you wish for. Big clubs can go into a nosedive quickly by playing the managerial merry-go-round. David Moyes was tempermentally unsuited for Manchester United, tactically too, and he lacked the background and attitude for United by his lack of vision.

LVG is different. This is a man who has managed at the highest levels in Europe, has a good track record especially in his younger days of developing talented youth into total footballers, and is in the mould of the genuinely big name managers. Get rid of him at your and our peril - whether that is by sacking him or giving him no way out but to resign.

As for Pep etc - you're dreaming as in thinking that kind of European manager will come in and suddenly United will be back to their title winning form. United is rebuilding, just as it was when Alex Ferguson came in and his new signings did nothing to suggest United would ever win games consistently let alone titles and European Cups. LVG is not Sir Alex and times have changed but one thing hasn't - big clubs that play the change the manager game when the club is in transition, end up losing heavily.

 

[Sigma]

In relation to Utd's transfer business in January, Mark has been told the priority is a Left Back. That's all Mark is aware off...

Really hope this isn't true.

 

[Stretford End Phil]

They see someone they think they can control.

Maybe but 'control' usually involves an active policy. Any policy demands thinking, decision-making, and taking responsibility, which haven't been obvious traits since the Glazer takeover.

I think it's a simpler reason - Giggs doesn't rock the boat and that removes the need for a pro-active board. This board doesn't take hard decisions and has shown it follows the path of least resistance. I would hazard a guess that during board meetings there is a high degree of concensus and a lot of face saving. Overloaded with big expense pennies, nobody wants to challenge the status quo.

 

[Devil may care]

Is that not what Woodward does now?

Yes and he's not really schooled in it, it's basically the most important job at the club in terms of getting things in place for the team to do well, and he's learning on the job.

 

[Attila]

Still can't believe he survived the sack.

 

[Red Dreams]

someone needs to confirm this. was not van Gaal appointed with no condition of him having to finish top 4? He had 3 years to steady the ship. We will all be dead after next season if he is still here.

 

[steffyr2]

Maybe but 'control' usually involves an active policy. Any policy demands thinking, decision-making, and taking responsibility, which haven't been obvious traits since the Glazer takeover.

I think it's a simpler reason - Giggs doesn't rock the boat and that removes the need for a pro-active board. This board doesn't take hard decisions and has shown it follows the path of least resistance. I would hazard a guess that during board meetings there is a high degree of concensus and a lot of face saving. Overloaded with big expense pennies, nobody wants to challenge the status quo.

Who knows? You'd think they'd be horrified about the way Utd is being run, but that doesn't seem to bother anyone involved. I just assume they don't want to be overshadowed by a new guy and figure they can keep Ryan in line.

 

[RedPnutz]

Obviously Woodward knows more about running a club. The team has shown progress in the last two matches. Even though United lost to Stoke and drew with Chelsea, even though this small amount of progress is small for United's stature, what you need to remember is, we are no longer that special club which we were under Fergie. We are a normal club with ups and downs now. So we will get out of this rut, it will just take a bit of time and patience, if CL is gone for next season, he will get LVG off anyway.

There is no candidate available to take over currently. For you, Jose might be the guy, but for the club, maybe no Jose. Woody is doing what he thinks is best for the club and there are a lot of fans who still agree with him.

Anyway you look at it, LVG is currently the best guy to get United out of this mess.

Very sensible post here. I think many fans, including myself, underestimated the effect that an absence of Fergie would have. His longevity and personal strength are one in a million.

Probably not quite a normal club, but still a club that will not be exempt from up and downs. The LVG reign will die a natural death when he fails to get top 4, which I think is somewhat fair, since that is a truly quantifiable outcome. Much of the "popular" opinion is simply noise.

The practical aspect is as you mentioned. Who else is there? I am not sure if Mourinho is the right person. The club is already in unsteady waters right now, not convinced Jose is in the right state himself to steady it. Also have never seen Mourinho to be a steadying kind of manager.

The truth is LVG is probably the only resort we have, unless we are happy to hand over to Giggs.

 

[RedPnutz]

They lead the selection of manager and the acquisition of players for said manager.

I see. So in that sense the manager is simply a coach?

 

[Devil may care]

I see. So in that sense the manager is simply a coach?

Yes, other than us and Arsenal that is how most big clubs have been ran for quite some time now, in fact it's the way they have always been ran in Spain, Italy and Germany.

 

[Stretford End Phil]

To the anti Louis Van Gaal brigade - be careful what you wish for. Big clubs can go into a nosedive quickly by playing the managerial merry-go-round. David Moyes was tempermentally unsuited for Manchester United, tactically too, and he lacked the background and attitude for United by his lack of vision.

LVG is different. This is a man who has managed at the highest levels in Europe, has a good track record especially in his younger days of developing talented youth into total footballers, and is in the mould of the genuinely big name managers. Get rid of him at your and our peril - whether that is by sacking him or giving him no way out but to resign.

As for Pep etc - you're dreaming as in thinking that kind of European manager will come in and suddenly United will be back to their title winning form. United is rebuilding, just as it was when Alex Ferguson came in and his new signings did nothing to suggest United would ever win games consistently let alone titles and European Cups. LVG is not Sir Alex and times have changed but one thing hasn't - big clubs that play the change the manager game when the club is in transition, end up losing heavily.

Agree with you that 20 years ago LVG had the tactics and policy to succeed but time moves on. He is largely regarded as a failure in Germany because of his disastrous youth policy at Bayern, his poor use of tactics, and for nearly knocking the heart out of the club. He was eventually sacked to quote 'restore enjoyable football'. During the World Cup, I was surprised to find just how many Dutch fans thought he was useless as their national coach including Cruyff. His reputation across Europe is mixed at best. A lot of the anti-LVG brigade never wanted him here in the first place.

 

[ryansgirl]

Very sensible post here. I think many fans, including myself, underestimated the effect that an absence of Fergie would have. His longevity and personal strength are one in a million.

Probably not quite a normal club, but still a club that will not be exempt from up and downs. The LVG reign will die a natural death when he fails to get top 4, which I think is somewhat fair, since that is a truly quantifiable outcome. Much of the "popular" opinion is simply noise.

The practical aspect is as you mentioned. Who else is there? I am not sure if Mourinho is the right person. The club is already in unsteady waters right now, not convinced Jose is in the right state himself to steady it. Also have never seen Mourinho to be a steadying kind of manager.

The truth is LVG is probably the only resort we have, unless we are happy to hand over to Giggs.

You said it well. Exactly why we don't need Mourinho, too. He courts too much publicity for the United board to endorse him as the next manager.

 

[ryansgirl]

Agree with you that 20 years ago LVG had the tactics and policy to succeed but time moves on. He is largely regarded as a failure in Germany because of his disastrous youth policy at Bayern, his poor use of tactics, and for nearly knocking the heart out of the club. He was eventually sacked to quote 'restore enjoyable football'. During the World Cup, I was surprised to find just how many Dutch fans thought he was useless as their national coach including Cruyff. His reputation across Europe is mixed at best. A lot of the anti-LVG brigade never wanted him here in the first place.

Fair enough (although I think LVG is a much better manager than you think) but I don't think getting rid of him now will do anything to end United's poor run. I can see it now - United descending to second tier because it messed around to much with new managers.

 

[Red Dreams]

Maybe but 'control' usually involves an active policy. Any policy demands thinking, decision-making, and taking responsibility, which haven't been obvious traits since the Glazer takeover.

I think it's a simpler reason - Giggs doesn't rock the boat and that removes the need for a pro-active board. This board doesn't take hard decisions and has shown it follows the path of least resistance. I would hazard a guess that during board meetings there is a high degree of concensus and a lot of face saving. Overloaded with big expense pennies, nobody wants to challenge the status quo.

I agree that Manchester United is now just a business...what with all these revenue streams Woody is so good at signing up. But these streams depend on what is happening on the field of play. So I'm not so sure if just not rocking the boat is the motive. But if United were to be sold end of the 2016/2017 season when van Gaal's contract expires, it would make sense.

 

[Wednesday at Stoke]

To the anti Louis Van Gaal brigade - be careful what you wish for. Big clubs can go into a nosedive quickly by playing the managerial merry-go-round. David Moyes was tempermentally unsuited for Manchester United, tactically too, and he lacked the background and attitude for United by his lack of vision.

LVG is different. This is a man who has managed at the highest levels in Europe, has a good track record especially in his younger days of developing talented youth into total footballers, and is in the mould of the genuinely big name managers. Get rid of him at your and our peril - whether that is by sacking him or giving him no way out but to resign.

As for Pep etc - you're dreaming as in thinking that kind of European manager will come in and suddenly United will be back to their title winning form. United is rebuilding, just as it was when Alex Ferguson came in and his new signings did nothing to suggest United would ever win games consistently let alone titles and European Cups. LVG is not Sir Alex and times have changed but one thing hasn't - big clubs that play the change the manager game when the club is in transition, end up losing heavily.

There is some truth to this, they were able to ditch Moyes because well, frankly he was Moyes, Ferguson and Charlton still hold a lot of sway over the football matters and they are not going to treat a man of LvG's caliber the same way unless it becomes mathematically impossible that we qualify for the champions league once again. This combined with the lack of a clear alternative makes it very hard for the club to remove him halfway through his contract.

I think if Ancelotti or Klopp were still available there must have been a serious conversation but from what has transpired between Woodward and LvG it looks like terminating him has clearly never been a viable option for them.

 

[Devil may care]

There is some truth to this, they were able to ditch Moyes because well, frankly he was Moyes, Ferguson and Charlton still hold a lot of sway over the football matters and they are not going to treat a man of LvG's caliber the same way unless it becomes mathematically impossible that we qualify for the champions league once again. This combined with the lack of a clear alternative makes it very hard for the club to remove him halfway through his contract.

I think if Ancelotti or Klopp were still available there must have been a serious conversation but from what has transpired between Woodward and LvG it looks like terminating him has clearly never been a viable option for them.

So essentially a bunch of people with personal agendas putting themselves before the good of the club, as LvG is clearly a complete bust and waiting until he mathematically can't get top 4 only makes the job harder for the next manager.

 

[m1y2]

someone needs to confirm this. was not van Gaal appointed with no condition of him having to finish top 4? He had 3 years to steady the ship. We will all be dead after next season if he is still here.

imagine hes given money to spend in January, surely there has to be a decision made to sack him before the start of the winter transfer window..

 

[RedFish]

To the anti Louis Van Gaal brigade - be careful what you wish for. Big clubs can go into a nosedive quickly by playing the managerial merry-go-round. David Moyes was tempermentally unsuited for Manchester United, tactically too, and he lacked the background and attitude for United by his lack of vision.

LVG is different. This is a man who has managed at the highest levels in Europe, has a good track record especially in his younger days of developing talented youth into total footballers, and is in the mould of the genuinely big name managers. Get rid of him at your and our peril - whether that is by sacking him or giving him no way out but to resign.

As for Pep etc - you're dreaming as in thinking that kind of European manager will come in and suddenly United will be back to their title winning form. United is rebuilding, just as it was when Alex Ferguson came in and his new signings did nothing to suggest United would ever win games consistently let alone titles and European Cups. LVG is not Sir Alex and times have changed but one thing hasn't - big clubs that play the change the manager game when the club is in transition, end up losing heavily.

I hear you, but I'm unashamedly pro LVG. I can't think of anyone more suited to suffer the blood, sweat and tears that this rebuilding will take, and ultimately come out it successful. To hear him say that he would never resign, if the players remained committed to play for him (in the post match presser) was music to my ears. Personally I feel the club needs him now, more than ever, and especially as I think there is a 'next phase' of development to come. Those who expected us to return to being the top team in the country after a period around 18 months are in my opinion deluded. An overhaul of playing staff, training methods, system implementation was always going to take at least 2-3 years. Abandoning his work at this stage (which I consider overall to be satisfactory in relation to the overall aim) would be foolish in the extreme.

 

[Wednesday at Stoke]

So essentially a bunch of people with personal agendas putting themselves before the good of the club, as LvG is clearly a complete bust and waiting until he mathematically can't get top 4 only makes the job harder for the next manager.

I don't think its personal agenda, lack of continuity can severely harm a club in the longer term and sooner than later you need to plant an anchor and rally around it. Things might get better or may be not but giving someone the chance to see it through is not the worse idea at all.

This is a squad that's still suffering from some key injuries and obviously we got more than one wrong in the transfer market. The good news is that the club is rich enough to make mistakes and still recover by spending more, at the moment we are learning some expensive lessons, which we hopefully keep in mind going forward.

 

[Devil may care]

I don't think its personal agenda, lack of continuity can severely harm a club in the longer term and sooner than later you need to plant an anchor and rally around it. Things might get better or may be not but giving someone the chance to see it through is not the worse idea at all.

This is a squad that's still suffering from some key injuries and obviously we got more than one wrong in the transfer market. The good news is that the club is rich enough to make mistakes and still recover by spending more, at the moment we are learning some expensive lessons, which we hopefully keep in mind going forward.

You don't drop anchor in modern football, that's the outdated thinking that is plaguing the club, this pointless notion of having another 20 year manager, it's the reason Giggs has gotten his hooks in so deep. Bayern Munich are the best ran, most stable top club in Europe and they have changed manager multiple times without dropping to the depths we are currently scraping by keeping an old man out of time in the job because of reasons unrelated to the clubs best interests on the pitch.

 

[.Rossi]

Today was the turning point for me....

Was reluctant to go balls deep into "out" territory but, any half decent, half together team would have beaten us today. Yet, we still couldn't even score against this rubbish. Just remember who we were playing today and the embarrassment they have been this season

 

[Red Dreams]

van Gaals football is incompetence bordering on sabotage. with the players we had, we had no business losing to Bournemouth and Norwich and Stoke.

The Chelsea 'resurgence' was the players rebelling against his regime. I'm certain Fergie was pulled into all this by Giggs.

In the end you need to win matches. If not we will keep going down the table. The Liverpool match looms large now. Even the Glazers cannot face the flat out revolt if we lose to them.

 

[Macern]

The one thing that really worries me is that I don't think the board have any plans of sacking him.

 

[Wednesday at Stoke]

You don't drop anchor in modern football, that's the outdated thinking that is plaguing the club, this pointless notion of having another 20 year manager, it's the reason Giggs has gotten his hooks in so deep. Bayern Munich are the best ran, most stable top club in Europe and they have changed manager multiple times without dropping to the depths we are currently scraping by keeping an old man out of time in the job because of reasons unrelated to the clubs best interests on the pitch.

Bayern went through the same phase we are going through now by having 5 managers between 2007 and 2011, their fortunes only changed when they started accumulating talent, producing some of their own through their academy and players like Schweinsteiger came into their own. Its not like their shit never stank. They were FC Hollywood at its best for a while there.

 

[Stretford End Phil]

I agree that Manchester United is now just a business...what with all these revenue streams Woody is so good at signing up. But these streams depend on what is happening on the field of play. So I'm not so sure if just not rocking the boat is the motive. But if United were to be sold end of the 2016/2017 season when van Gaal's contract expires, it would make sense.

Imagine the trickle down of money to the board members of a club about to be taken over? Expenses alone would release millions plus the signing bonuses. If the club turns into a franchise I can envisage Fergie becoming a hate figure for allowing the Glazers in.

 

[NK86]

One good, albeit goalless, performance in a month and it now seems some people are fine with LVG remaining till he actually manages to have us outside the top 4 at the end of the season. Then these very people will complain that the board is not proactive enough. LVG is not going to salvage this situation. We just played an absolutely shite Chelsea team. Our next few games are huge ones in terms of us climbing up the table. With LVG around, I can see sliding further back.

 

[Red Dreams]

Imagine the trickle down of money to the board members of a club about to be taken over? Expenses alone would release millions plus the signing bonuses. If the club turns into a franchise I can envisage Fergie becoming a hate figure for allowing the Glazers in.

how did Fergie allow them in though. Was not his connection the Irish group?

 

[pseudo_canadian]

I'm simply at a loss for words that van Gaal still has a job, I just don't understand.

How can our board be so incompetent and blind to what is going on in front of our eyes?

This has turned into an absolute farce.

 

[Red Dreams]

One good, albeit goalless, performance in a month and it now seems some people are fine with LVG remaining till he actually manages to have us outside the top 4 at the end of the season. Then these very people will complain that the board is not proactive enough. LVG is not going to salvage this situation. We just played an absolutely shite Chelsea team. Our next few games are huge ones in terms of us climbing up the table. With LVG around, I can see sliding further back.

So the board would rather see the team slide down the table than appoint the best manager available. sounds familiar. Clough? And firing Docherty. We simply got lucky with Fergie.

 

[NK86]

Bayern went through the same phase we are going through now by having 5 managers between 2007 and 2011, their fortunes only changed when they started accumulating talent, producing some of their own through their academy and players like Schweinsteiger came into their own. Its not like their shit never stank. They were FC Hollywood at its best for a while there.

Bayern were not stagnating during those 4 years because they kept changing managers. They struggled because they kept picking the wrong managers but that did not stop them from accepting their mistake and moving on. That is how they finally got the right managers to do the job.

We, on the other hand, seem to refuse that things are spiralling out of control and we could well see another season out of the CL if we don't do something about it.

 

[Stretford End Phil]

van Gaals football is incompetence bordering on sabotage. with the players we had, we had no business losing to Bournemouth and Norwich and Stoke.

The Chelsea 'resurgence' was the players rebelling against his regime. I'm certain Fergie was pulled into all this by Giggs.

In the end you need to win matches. If not we will keep going down the table. The Liverpool match looms large now. Even the Glazers cannot face the flat out revolt if we lose to them.

Our quality this last two months was worse than his time at Bayern. You're right to point to the Liverpool game, because Klopp was his nemesis when he was at Bayern.

 

[NK86]

So the board would rather see the team slide down the table than appoint the best manager available. sounds familiar. Clough? And firing Docherty. We simply got lucky with Fergie.

Exactly the point. You don't wait till the situation is unsalvageable. That is a horrendous business model. It is better to lose a few millions and get the right man in than to again go without CL for a whole season. This thinking that we can manage without being in the CL for some seasons as we are Manchester United is exactly what got Liverpool where they are now.

 

[Devil may care]

Bayern went through the same phase we are going through now by having 5 managers between 2007 and 2011, their fortunes only changed when they started accumulating talent, producing some of their own through their academy and players like Schweinsteiger came into their own. Its not like their shit never stank. They were FC Hollywood at its best for a while there.

In that 2007-2011 four year period they won the league 2 out of the 4 seasons, hardly a slump. They went from LvG, to Heynkes to Pep in short order, got to 3 CL finals, won it once and added 5 League tiles with 3 manager changes, proving that you don't need to keep managers long term if your club structure is good. We have an old dud here, he can't change anything, the club needed new blood on the playing side of things, but it's also needed in the managerial and board level as well IMO.

 

[Wednesday at Stoke]

Bayern were not stagnating during those 4 years because they kept changing managers. They struggled because they kept picking the wrong managers but that did not stop them from accepting their mistake and moving on. That is how they finally got the right managers to do the job.

We, on the other hand, seem to refuse that things are spiralling out of control and we could well see another season out of the CL if we don't do something about it.

Their fortunes improved once their talent improved and other than Klinsmann who was their Moyes, the managers they had weren't any better or worse than the subsequent one. We can also play the managerial merry go round and we'd suffer the same until we improve the quality of the team.

 

[Eddy_JukeZ]

Is that a new metric? Fire a manager after 8 continuous games without a win?

Do you think it's acceptable to go 8 games without a win if you're the manager of this football club?

 

[Stretford End Phil]

Bayern were not stagnating during those 4 years because they kept changing managers. They struggled because they kept picking the wrong managers but that did not stop them from accepting their mistake and moving on. That is how they finally got the right managers to do the job.

We, on the other hand, seem to refuse that things are spiralling out of control and we could well see another season out of the CL if we don't do something about it.

Partly true. Bayern offered LVG a permanent contract, which was unusual and then sacked him 4 months later. Many Bayern fans still believe he sabotaged them to get the sack prior to taking the Holland job that became conveniently open. Heynckes turned LVG's mess around and made them play some pretty good football.