LVG Out Thread | BBC: Sacked!

[Stretford End Phil]

I think it was evident that schmidfield had tired mid second half, Chelsea brought Ramirez on to double up on Martial nullifying our main threat. On top of that Mata and Blind tired so there was less movement.

Chelsea could have won through Matic, when we lost defensive shape when attacking, but Herrera and Rooney could also have won it for us.

I feel one or two more quality players and we will have a squad capable of being far more attacking.

Never had any doubt he will stay till the end of his contract. Too many caftards get hung up on the media, wanting him out is one thing, but getting taken in by media reports is quite amusing.

He has got a long way to go to win over the fans and ex-players. Maybe he will never win over some fans, I know many reds who disliked Fergie immensely. I wonder if any ex-players would change their views if they attended a players coaching session

The dislike for Fergie was surprisingly widespread and many old fans remain critics. I stuck with Fergie back in the bad old days but it was his books that did for me. The first biography exposed his vanity, we parted ways over his silly second biography, and the 'Leadership' book is plainly pompous. A great manager who really didn't need these stupid books. Later generations will use them to undermine the legend.

I never wanted LVG but feel uncomfortable about mid season sacking because they can seriously backfire. I did think if we were near the top in January we might buy some striking power. However, the recent poor quality of the football and the results finally pushed me toward favouring his immediate sacking. After today, those last 20 minutes represent just how poor we are, lapsing into a style that would have sent Fergie ballistic. I don't think a couple of players will cure this; it's about the pseudoscience LVG has foisted upon us, and a new manager at this stage would now only cause further confusion.

TBH I think Fergie and Bobby recognise this issue and will try to wait it out. We're in a strange phase.

 

[sammsky1]

How well connected is mark Ogden. He just did a radio interview with a chap called Philip de bruin with some interesting opinions : ( I don't know how to do the Twitter copy paste so just pasted all the tweets below:

• In relation to Utd's transfer business in January, Mark has been told the priority is a Left Back. That's all Mark is aware off...

• It appears LVG is surviving on a game by game basis, Woodward believes in him but many inside the club don't...

• The belief is that Woodward's loyalty to LVG is partly down to concern over his own job & not wanting to admit he got it wrong...

• Woodward's job is not under threat, he's loved by the Glazers, seen as the 5th one of the family regardless of what happens with LVG..

• It's accepted within the club that EW lacks football knowledge & doesn't recognize the signs of when players stop playing for their manager.

• Woodwards view of the CO92 is kids throwing stones at the window, they make it uncomfortable for him, Richard Arnold, LVG etc. Woodward's distrust of the class of 92 is part of the reason why he's reluctant to give the job to Ryan Giggs. The feeling is, if Woodward gives the job to Giggs then he is conceding power of the club to Fergie and the Class of 92.

• It appears United don't want to give the job to Mourinho and it's unlikely he will get it

Certainly explains a lot of what has been happening whether you agree with it or not! A lot to do with inter club politics and Woodward securing the key levers of power

For me, it boils down to lack of agreeable options:

SBC and SAF don't want Mourinho and Woodward does not want Giggs. So we stick with LVG.

Until the nest major loss ..... Complete clusterfuxk situation

 

[Ryan7]

I honestly wouldn't read too much into what Ogden said. He's changed his tune completely. He also said on talkSPORT that United have a 'appreciation' of Van Gaal due to the 'steadying of the ship' and 'calmness' he brought. That's why he's still here. He never mentioned Woodward's job in connection with Van Gaal staying. Either so much has suddenly changed since Tuesday last week or he's full of BS.

 

[sammsky1]

Woodward needs to learn that we aren't pissed that he appointed Van Gaal we just don't want him here anymore.

Write him a tweet or Facebook post!

 

[m1tch]

We're gonna have to sink lower before he goes it seems. Great .

 

[Stretford End Phil]

I agree, just not sure it's a conspiracy as such, more a weird loyalty to England's captain, for whatever reason.

Professionalism isn't a conspiracy as such it's just another form of etiquette. Back slapping, never criticising each other etc etc. A bit like accounts and bankers protecting each other's self interests - only footballers lack the polite subtleties.

 

[Offside]

Honestly Ogden talks shit. There is no way relations within the club can be that clear cut and there's no way he knows enough to be able to say it so clear cut anyway. As if he is so clued up on what everyone thinks about everything.

 

[Americano]

I agree, just not sure it's a conspiracy as such, more a weird loyalty to England's captain, for whatever reason.

It's called Omerta.

 

[RRCE]

As I've said before, I hope this place doesn't implode when LVG sees out his contract and is replaced by Giggs. I'm firmly of the view that Van Gaal should go, but it just isn't going to happen unless things are past the point of recovery - just like Moyes, when a top four finish was no longer mathematically possible. The club is going to stay the course, opt for "stability", continue to invest and hope that the results improve. All the discussion about Mourinho is moot. If they wanted him, he'd already be here. I think it's absolutely foolish to pass up on a Manager of his quality, but that's exactly what is going to happen. I don't even think they'll talk to Pep, who will surely end up at City as a result (in fact, I'm sure that's already a done deal). I think the club is hell-bent on doing things the "United way", with the belief (some might say blind hope) that Giggs can become their own Guardiola and long term Manager. Enough investment can fix many problems, I suppose, but my concern is that you can't always recreate the past. We won't see another Sir Alex again. It's as simple as that. How many Managers have had a career like his? Arguably none. What are the chances that Giggs can do the job over a long period of time with anything resembling Ferguson's level of success? Very slim. I believe that the club should look for the very best personnel available, both on and off the field. The Manager should be no different. The club's romantic notion of Giggs leading the club for the next 15 years will prevent this from happening. as part of this, I don't think LVG is going anywhere in the foreseeable future.

 

[RedPnutz]

My question wasn't aimed at sammsky1. It was rhetorical.

Just a bit of a banter. The place is so on edge recently.

 

[SalfordRed1960]

The dislike for Fergie was surprisingly widespread and many old fans remain critics. I stuck with Fergie back in the bad old days but it was his books that did for me. The first biography exposed his vanity, we parted ways over his silly second biography, and the 'Leadership' book is plainly pompous. A great manager who really didn't need these stupid books. Later generations will use them to undermine the legend.

I never wanted LVG but feel uncomfortable about mid season sacking because they can seriously backfire. I did think if we were near the top in January we might buy some striking power. However, the recent poor quality of the football and the results finally pushed me toward favouring his immediate sacking. After today, those last 20 minutes represent just how poor we are, lapsing into a style that would have sent Fergie ballistic. I don't think a couple of players will cure this; it's about the pseudoscience LVG has foisted upon us, and a new manager at this stage would now only cause further confusion.

TBH I think Fergie and Bobby recognise this issue and will try to wait it out. We're in a strange phase.

I agree, a strange phase.

I''m a fan boy if that hasn't been obvious, but more from a coaching perspective. I coach my teams to think when they have the ball and when they don't. I don't encourage emotion in chasing the ball, hogging, or running down blind alleys ( an Adnan trait). Movement is key in this style of play, if there is none you are forced to try to not lose possession. You also need to focus on pressing to get the ball back, rather than stand off. United have lacked movement by the front players for most of LVGs reign, we have had Young, ADM, Mata and Depay just stay routed to the byline preventing any attacking threat, rather that to get behind or take on the defenders. God knows what they do in training. The fact Martial and Lingard take on the defender I put this down to player confidence, rather than training. I also feel United's best games have been when the players have pressed. Saw some of that today with Herrera in particular. So I feel a couple mobile players and we will be in a very good position. My take is that was LVG's summer plans, but he may have to bring that forward.

 

[RedFish]

We're gonna have to sink lower before he goes it seems. Great .

For a second there, I thought you meant the attitude of the Caf towards him and your dismay at the exaggerated and painful whining/negativity. Stupid me

 

[VeevaVee]

Thought CBJ had an impact, put in the best cross of the day. In all seriousness the subs were obvious for different reasons. Shame Depay can not duplicate Martials threat.

It was a great cross. If Darmian was coming back from injury though, why play him in a game that could decide your career, knowing you're going to have to take him off and use a sub?

 

[Witchking]

Welcome to mid table mediocrity. If anyone thought finishing 7th under Moyes was bad, wait till this season is done. Now i will hold Woody responsible for the shite that is going on.

Like he cares that you hold him responsible

Yesterday's game was good. It was only Chelsea but you could see that the United team played as a team. This just proves that it's not LVG's fault only. The players are to blame too. Where was this type of football for the past 10 games?

LVG had said he wanted more pace in the attacks which we saw yesterday. Hopefully this will continue. Minimum target is qualifying for the CL next season. If that target is missed, he will go. Till then support the club.

 

[m1tch]

For a second there, I thought you meant the attitude of the Caf towards him and your dismay at the exaggerated and painful whining/negativity. Stupid me

I did mean results on the pitch but the two will go hand in hand I'm sure!

 

[dwd]

Write him a tweet or Facebook post!

Tell Ogden for us instead!

 

[Ryan7]

Just a bit of a banter. The place is so on edge recently.

Oh right. I guess I proved the last sentence.

 

[Stretford End Phil]

How much of that succession planning was Fergie induced. If I had built an empire the two things I would want go leave behind is a strong empire and a competent successor. Really surprised that this didn't happen. We may have been champions but we had extremely old or young squad players, so were not in a good position. Add to that not having a No. 2 who could takeover made things awkward, as it meant someone coming in would likely change the backroom staff and change the whole culture on which the empire was built.

As I understand it, when United were on the UK stock exchange they were obliged to regulate for succession. The Glazers takeover removed that stipulation and Fergie was the key figure in the takeover. Ever pondered the idea that Fergie never really wanted to build a strong empire or have a real successor?

 

[Red Dreams]

I fear it won't happen now before April and he may well be here next year if he wins a cup. His post match was about Europa and I think the board has backed that plan. Jose, like Clough before him, is probably just too much for any United board. As to the fans criticism, it's probably being treated as a noisy rabble, I fear the blinkers are on. Making Rooney MOTM suggests OT has been pulling strings to shift the media spotlight.

I expect the questions over LVG will now shift to the transfer market. We may well buy in January and this will distract fans attention. The old game of give a dog a bone. Cynical but I expect a couple of buys that will distract attention long enough to see LVG through the season.

As to today's performance, the first half initially looked good but there were pointers that Chelsea could unlock us. That gaping gap in the middle occurred again, this time with Morgan and Basti shadowing each other rather than taking up different tactical positions - one offensive, one defensive. We did make chances in both halves and we were unlucky not to get a goal. But second half, it looked as if the show was over as we retreated back to type. Chelsea were allowed back in the game and we committed some brazenly stupid moves - Rooney should have received a red. By the last 20 minutes it was pretty mediocre and we limped home to a draw which suited Chelsea.

IMO those last 20 tell us most about the team that LVG has built.

good summation mate. no way are we winning the title with van Gaal or even either of the cups. But clearly the team tired towards the end which I expected playing 2 matches in 3 days. Chelsea were happy with the point. Importantly after all the money spent we look far from a title winning side. I felt if a new manager came in with key buys we will get there. If van Gaal stays, then the scenario of Giggs the next manager must already have been decided. Perhaps this was a sticking point with Jose...one he was unwilling to accept. Who knows.

I personally don't understand a strategy of only trying to get a top 4 position with all the following we have. But more bad results will bring more pressure.

 

[soap]

The first biography exposed his vanity

I know what you mean about his second book. The first, though? It has been a while since I read so maybe I'll have to reread, but from what I remember his first autobiography was actually very good - much more his second one anyway.

 

[Stretford End Phil]

I agree, a strange phase.

I''m a fan boy if that hasn't been obvious, but more from a coaching perspective. I coach my teams to think when they have the ball and when they don't. I don't encourage emotion in chasing the ball, hogging, or running down blind alleys ( an Adnan trait). Movement is key in this style of play, if there is none you are forced to try to not lose possession. You also need to focus on pressing to get the ball back, rather than stand off. United have lacked movement by the front players for most of LVGs reign, we have had Young, ADM, Mata and Depay just stay routed to the byline preventing any attacking threat, rather that to get behind or take on the defenders. God knows what they do in training. The fact Martial and Lingard take on the defender I put this down to player confidence, rather than training. I also feel United's best games have been when the players have pressed. Saw some of that today with Herrera in particular. So I feel a couple mobile players and we will be in a very good position. My take is that was LVG's summer plans, but he may have to bring that forward.

Great post - we are defo on the same page about style and training. I like your future positive, my concern was watching LVG in his second season at Bayern, and the misuse of young players. I am not convinced there is a 'third' phase just waiting around the corner. Those last 20 minutes suggests he has stamped on flair and imposed a style based upon the discipline of passing, holding position and retaining possession. That's a deeply ideological difference from Fergie's playing to win (pressing, attacking, creating chances) to a philosophy of playing not to lose.

 

[Wednesday at Stoke]

For me, it boils down to lack of agreeable options:

SBC and SAF don't want Mourinho and Woodward does not want Giggs. So we stick with LVG.

Until the nest major loss ..... Complete clusterfuxk situation

That seems about right, anyone know when Roberto's contract with Everton expires? I thought he signed a 3 year deal or was it 5?

 

[Devil may care]

LvG can't believe his luck, he's fell onto a gold mine here, he's used to big clubs acting efficiently, not this circus, he's Del Boy and he's found his Trigg.

Bobby Charlton and Fergie should have no input on who is our manager, both are living in the past.

 

[Stretford End Phil]

I know what you mean about his second book. The first, though? It has been a while since I read so maybe I'll have to reread, but from what I remember his first autobiography was actually very good - much more his second one anyway.

Actually all bios by football people make me cringe. Paul McGrath's was the only one that dealt with real pain, and the struggle with darkness.

 

[Red4Ever]

That seems about right, anyone know when Roberto's contract with Everton expires? I thought he signed a 3 year deal or was it 5?

I hope this is a joke!

Ask Everton fans about him

 

[Red Dreams]

Great post - we are defo on the same page about style and training. I like your future positive, my concern was watching LVG in his second season at Bayern, and the misuse of young players. I am not convinced there is a 'third' phase just waiting around the corner. Those last 20 minutes suggests he has stamped on flair and imposed a style based upon the discipline of passing, holding position and retaining possession. That's a deeply ideological difference from Fergie's playing to win (pressing, attacking, creating chances) to a philosophy of playing not to lose.

sums it all up.

yet I felt if we had conceeded, we would not have found a way back. I don't believe in van Gaal's team. What I saw looked liked a compromise playing style more than anything.

 

[Red Dreams]

LvG can't believe his luck, he's fell onto a gold mine here, he's used to big clubs acting efficiently, not this circus, he's Del Boy and he's found his Trigg.

Bobby Charlton and Fergie should have no input on who is our manager, both are living in the past.

they are not qualified to select the next manager imo. They were good at their own jobs is all. Managers should be selected on their resume. The whole persistence with Giggs is because they think it will be a 'long term' appointment.

I'd like to know what they see in him.

 

[Stretford End Phil]

good summation mate. no way are we winning the title with van Gaal or even either of the cups. But clearly the team tired towards the end which I expected playing 2 matches in 3 days. Chelsea were happy with the point. Importantly after all the money spent we look far from a title winning side. I felt if a new manager came in with key buys we will get there. If van Gaal stays, then the scenario of Giggs the next manager must already have been decided. Perhaps this was a sticking point with Jose...one he was unwilling to accept. Who knows.

I personally don't understand a strategy of only trying to get a top 4 position with all the following we have. But more bad results will bring more pressure.

Don't you think the wrong players tired?

Those last 20 minutes left me cold.
We're in a strange place and it does look to me as if Giggs has been instrumental to it all along. The managerial game over this Xmas period may well backfire on him and the club. We're certainly in a mess and everything depends on the transfer market. I sense a deal is around the corner and is raising backroom spirits unless they really do believe this squad can win something. In those 20 minutes we gave up the idea of scoring or winning against a lower level side, struggling with form, and playing at home. That is a serious indictment of how poor we have become but worse, it shows what the likes of Giggs and Rooney are prepared to live with.

 

[Devil may care]

they are not qualified to select the next manager imo. They were good at their own jobs is all. Mangaers should be selected on their resume. The whole persistence with Giggs is because they think it will be a 'long term' appointment.

I'd like to know what they see in him.

The ability to keep a degree of control over the club and a misguided ideal of what United is about, I mean Bobby Charlton doesn't approve of Mourinho's behaviour but he's ok with Giggs far worse behaviour, it's just hypocritical and self serving, they should have roles like Beckenbauer at Bayern now, just honorary titles and nothing more.

 

[RedPnutz]

LvG can't believe his luck, he's fell onto a gold mine here, he's used to big clubs acting efficiently, not this circus, he's Del Boy and he's found his Trigg.

Bobby Charlton and Fergie should have no input on who is our manager, both are living in the past.

Right or wrong, it is logical. If we believe that Woodward isn't a football person, and the Glazers know nothing about football, then it is only natural that SAF and Sir Charlton are being asked for guidance. I find it difficult to claim SAF is living in the past considering he still had the team winning right up till 2013, which is pretty recent.

 

[Red Dreams]

Don't you think the wrong players tired?

Those last 20 minutes left me cold.
We're in a strange place and it does look to me as if Giggs has been instrumental to it all along. The managerial game over this Xmas period may well backfire on him and the club. We're certainly in a mess and everything depends on the transfer market. I sense a deal is around the corner and is raising backroom spirits unless they really do believe this squad can win something. In those 20 minutes we gave up the idea of scoring or winning against a lower level side, struggling with form, and playing at home. That is a serious indictment of how poor we have become but worse, it shows what the likes of Giggs and Rooney are prepared to live with.

Bastian you mean? He is a player that will contribute less next season I feel.

My biggest concern is the dirty politics that have taken over the club. I see Giggs and Rooney's hands and behind them Fergie and Charlton too. It is not going to end well.

 

[Devil may care]

Right or wrong, it is logical. If we believe that Woodward isn't a football person, and the Glazers know nothing about football, then it is only natural that SAF and Sir Charlton are being asked for guidance. I find it difficult to claim SAF is living in the past considering he still had the team winning right up till 2013, which is pretty recent.

They are businessmen who own a billion dollar business, they should logically have done what City did when they got in Tixi Bergestein, a modern football man who knows how to operate in the modern era, not ask two old age pensioners who have misty eyed views to have input in major decisions that shape the club. Fergie was still a great man manager and knew the PL better than anyone, that is not the same as being good at overseeing football operations and the fact is his whole transfer mentality showed how out of date he had gotten, man management and club management aren't the same IMO.

 

[Red Dreams]

For me, it boils down to lack of agreeable options:

SBC and SAF don't want Mourinho and Woodward does not want Giggs. So we stick with LVG.

Until the nest major loss ..... Complete clusterfuxk situation

the classic power struggle. United meaning us the supporters the losers.

 

[ghagua]

Like he cares that you hold him responsible

Yesterday's game was good. It was only Chelsea but you could see that the United team played as a team. This just proves that it's not LVG's fault only. The players are to blame too. Where was this type of football for the past 10 games?

LVG had said he wanted more pace in the attacks which we saw yesterday. Hopefully this will continue. Minimum target is qualifying for the CL next season. If that target is missed, he will go. Till then support the club.

Another one spouting a lot of crap. No Woody does not give a shite about what i think, but some people are blaming him for some of whats going on, i'm blaming him for still keeping that fraud in a job.

 

[Red Dreams]

perhaps the warning bells will really go off if the scousers beat us next month.

 

[Witchking]

Another one spouting a lot of crap. No Woody does not give a shite about what i think, but some people are blaming him for some of whats going on, i'm blaming him for still keeping that fraud in a job.

Obviously Woodward knows more about running a club. The team has shown progress in the last two matches. Even though United lost to Stoke and drew with Chelsea, even though this small amount of progress is small for United's stature, what you need to remember is, we are no longer that special club which we were under Fergie. We are a normal club with ups and downs now. So we will get out of this rut, it will just take a bit of time and patience, if CL is gone for next season, he will get LVG off anyway.

There is no candidate available to take over currently. For you, Jose might be the guy, but for the club, maybe no Jose. Woody is doing what he thinks is best for the club and there are a lot of fans who still agree with him.

Anyway you look at it, LVG is currently the best guy to get United out of this mess.

 

[Stretford End Phil]

Bastian you mean? He is a player that will contribute less next season I feel.

My biggest concern is the dirty politics that have taken over the club. I see Giggs and Rooney's hands and behind them Fergie and Charlton too. It is not going to end well.

Basti among others.

Agree with you on the dirty politics, but they have always been there. The real concern is how we have changed as a club: from ambition and greatness - a real powerhouse - to a squalid bunch of wide boys serving up some pretty mediocre entertainment - and raving about it! The messages are inconsistent and we have drifted into a game by game existence.

 

[Stretford End Phil]

perhaps the warning bells will really go off if the scousers beat us next month.

If there are anymore warning bells we actually might end up deaf!!

 

[steffyr2]

they are not qualified to select the next manager imo. They were good at their own jobs is all. Managers should be selected on their resume. The whole persistence with Giggs is because they think it will be a 'long term' appointment.

I'd like to know what they see in him.

They see someone they think they can control.

 

[Red Dreams]

Basti among others.

Agree with you on the dirty politics, but they have always been there. The real concern is how we have changed as a club: from ambition and greatness - a real powerhouse - to a squalid bunch of wide boys serving up some pretty mediocre entertainment - and raving about it! The messages are inconsistent and we have drifted into a game by game existence.

the difference is Fergie was the emperor and he was obsessed with winning. I said elswhere that I feel the Glazers will sell the club to some huge buyer in a year or so. This may have something to do with the non-Morinho appointment.