They were exceptional talents. Even then they had the odd game here and there previously in the League Cup. He is chucking these kids in as has been said to sink or swim. Luckily for him they have actually done well. We went out last night, could you imagine if they had played badly. It could have destroyed them. He was taking one hell of a risk with these kids careers.
LVG Out Thread | BBC: Sacked!
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Again, the Class of 92 weren't just thrusted into the team in '96 when Hansen slagged them off... they were bled in.
Rio had played a shit load of first team gamse for Leeds, Rooney had for Everton and Ronaldo was protected by Fergie in his first season here.
Maybe it's not luck, maybe they are mature and talented.
Over 100 between them.
They weren't at all just dropped in the first team together without leadership because others were injured. They became first team regulars quite quickly young, that doesn't mean they weren't carefully managed into the team.
Anyway it's great he's willing to go with the youth, it's just not so great that he's thinned the squad and so he now has to use them in such a way rather than perhaps what may be in there best interests.
Plus in this comparison Rooney and Ronaldo similar to Shaw or Martial. And I have no idea why he considering Rio a young player back then.
I voted to let him see out his contract. He's midway through the rebuilding job. Ok, so exiting the Champions League is not the way to win yourself supporters, but I do think we will be a very different proposition next season when further recruitments to the playing staff are made (forwards!). It's a difficult decision for some as they want short term success, but LVG is the man to complete the rebuild as painful as it maybe this season. If next season is a resounding success, we may even want to extend his contract!
I now know that. It was that it was insinuated that they were just thrown in at the deep end in 95/96. I didn't know the figures until someone else posted them. It was actually a lot more than I thought.
Whose interests to people think are being damaged by being overplayed at the moment. Are we only talking about Martial here - which I can understand - or do people think this is a broader problem?
I dont think playing the likes of Lingard or Borthwick Jackson will have done them any harm. Yes it was a lot of pressure, especially on the latter, but if they want to make it at United theyll have to deal with it.
As I said, I see the issue with Martial, but he is the only one I see it with. As for the rest of it, the youngsters should be grateful for the experience.
I dont think playing the likes of Lingard or Borthwick Jackson will have done them any harm. Yes it was a lot of pressure, especially on the latter, but if they want to make it at United theyll have to deal with it.
As I said, I see the issue with Martial, but he is the only one I see it with. As for the rest of it, the youngsters should be grateful for the experience.
It might be a tad unfair, but still I think it valid.
I also, have a hard time giving LVG the credit for "developing" the players you mentioned above. Xavi played more for Barcelona B then he did the first team in 98 but he did get more first team matches in 99/00...but was it LVG that developed the player that had been part of their Academy set up for years? Schweinsteger had been part of the Munich first team for 7 years before LVG set foot on their grounds - Muller definitely was integrated during LVG's time, but the kid was already a world class talent - Robben was a player already signed by Chelsea and Real Madrid prior to leaving for Munich.
Look - I get what you are saying but LVG has made a career at showing up a huge clubs that were already rich in history and world class players. He has won some trophies at most of his stops, but each and every one of those clubs are in a much better position today than they were under his tenure.
To be fair to him - he did build an AJAX side that he should get credit for. But since then, he has been a 2-3 years in and out type of manager...all the while pissing off some of his best talent.
Times change, football changes, but the man has refused to change the way he manages. He would be considered a genius in the 1950's era Football League, but the game has passed him by...simple as.
I'm tired of that bullshit, not trusting his long term plans doesn't equate to wanting short term success. Time doesn't fix bad planning or bad execution, it tends to worsen things.
There are some fair points in here. I'm not trying to worship the guy who clearly has some glaring flaws.
What I meant is that LVG has had problems prior to the job at utd but getting players to score in his system has never been one of them. We already had a thread about this listing all of LVG's strikers at every club he's been at and looking at their goal tally (during his reign). Impressive numbers, even when you look a Bayern.
The idea that he mutes talent is wrong, there's an argument to be made that he wants our midfield to remain tight in their positions so the forwards don't get as much help, but he doesn't mute or negate attacking talent. I've lost count of how many times martial, depay and lingard have tried something risky and it hasn't paid off, yet they persist. Shaw, when fit, was bursting down the left like a madman and LVG didn't care because more times than non he was quick enough to get back, he even went on and said that this was his year.
And for a club like Manchester United should be able to accomplish both.
QED David Moyes.
Every club has dips mate.
Fair to suggest that LVG is underperforming, a bit much to say UTD should always have either short term success and a long term plan.
Especially considering ferguson didn't have a long term plan after he sold Ronaldo
, he defo prioritised the short term and well it paid off.The club should be able to do it, but lets pretend that it's not possible. Do we have to trust everyone who claims that they are working for the long term? Are we forced to give them all the time they ask? Can't we judge every steps of the planning and execution and take the required decisions at every corners?
Every club has dips mate.
Fair to suggest that LVG is underperforming, a bit much to say UTD should always have either short term success and a long term plan.
Especially considering ferguson didn't have a long term plan after he sold Ronaldo
With the exception of Van Persie and Owen his signings after Ronaldo tended to be young. And the likes of Evans, Cleverley and Welbeck became important players from the academy. He tried to plan for the long term too.
Every club has dips mate.
Fair to suggest that LVG is underperforming, a bit much to say UTD should always have either short term success and a long term plan.
Especially considering ferguson didn't have a long term plan after he sold Ronaldo
In theory I agree, but when a football has the arrogance of claiming that he is the biggest club in the world, he better walk the walk.
I don't think this is the issue with most. I think it's that they can't see him taking us forward and think that no matter how much longer we give him we still wont improve significantly.
Most see 2 tier 1 managers sitting in the sideline and want to make sure we get one of them to take us forward.
I am beginning to think the club needs a big overhaul, which to me is not a job for a short term manager. Also he has signed players because of how they played for their previous clubs, then promptly tries to change how they play instead of using what attracted you to them in the first place.
What does that even mean ? Every giant club has droughts.
Barca was a mess after LVG left them (2nd stint), Madrid have had droughts and so have UTD.
It means that when it happens you have to ask yourself why and try to fix it. You can't just say:"Every giant club has droughts". It's fine to have a drought as long as you are trying your best to avoid it.
Why do you think you would have won the toughest away game in the group with the philosophy if the first two away games ended in a draw and a loss? And a draw yesterday wouldn't have been enough.
We wouldn't have. However, if we had played like this against PSV and then stuck to the usual style in Germany we might well be through. Ultimately, though, we are out because we played well below standard in the majority of our group stage games.
I don't hugely. But I think we'd have had a far better chance than what we did yesterday.
I think that he has dismissed great players because they are not versatile enough. He seems to be after players who can play in numerous positions, a Jack of All Trades rather than somebody who is a master of his trade.
That's not the issue. It's not about short term success at all. If we were to win a trophy this year then great, if not fine - as long as there is progress then I'd be happy.
The reality is sticking with him long term brings no guarantees. Your assessment that he's the man to complete any rebuild seems time to be blind faith. What do you see that suggests he is?
To me the criticisms are significant. A large turnover of players with only a few considered real success stories. Falling out with players, others leaking to the press, a tumescent style of play that lately isn't even producing results and last night was a new low - random, roll of of the dice substations that smacked of desperation - seemingly an attempt to stumble upon something by accident.
The positives are an improved defence - largely based on how we strangle they and with possession. Last night, when we opened up it looked anything but sound.
I was pleased with him as an appointment to be fair. A lot of experience and a safe pair of hands. But there's a potential risk with appointing a 60 plus year old manager - that is whether he's up to speed with the modern game. He's fast looking outdated here - trying "possession football" a million miles from the attacking, malleable possession based systems of Barca and Bayern.
Problem with that is they then end up average at everything.
Eh? Not sure about that. Just a throw away term surely.
Yeah I agree.
Do they?
So why aren't they? Is because they dot find it easy and almost all cone to plant 10 behind the ball, be it Stoke or City?
Don't worry about other people.
Not the houlier than thou attitude again. It's like we've gone back in time to the Moyes era.
People wanting Van Gaal arent necessarily being short term in their view like you have assumed. Far from it, instead of holding blind hope that things will turn out fine, some of us see the mistakes Van Gaal has made in his tenure here, and also remember that he's been fired in his last two big club jobs. For all the good with Van Gaal, when things go wrong, they tend to go wrong spectacularly. 3 points of the relegation with Barca, out of the UCL places with Bayern, failure to qualify for the world cup with a star studded Dutch side. That comes along with the fallouts, media wars . There is no certainty that we'll only get the good.
A year of Van Gaal relative to 4/5 years with a managers that have far outperformed him in the last decade isnt short term thinking. Far from it. The argument has always been that he's building a great team for his successor, we are simply giving that successor a year's headstart.
I would have personally fired Moyes into the south China sea when he was here. Because he was awful, those who defended him did so blindly.
Those who defend LVG do so because we see the long term and feel its worth it. Short term pain for long term gain. Until that changes, many will continue to support someone who isn't actually failing. We don't know his targets but the clubs already hinted a few times they would renew. That speaks volumes about how far apart the club and fans are (some anyway).
Those worried aboutoutw status after a few years away from the title want to look at our friends from Merseyside. Nothing for decades, still widely regarded as a major club and brand. Were twice the size. More successful, better supported and have a magic about us that fans grab a hold of.
Maybe not, but given £200m to achieve just 6 more points last season, it's not beyond the realms of possibility. I'm not trying to defend Moyes by any means but LVG has been shocking so far, there's no getting away from it.
What do people see from LVG's reign so far to be okay with him being here next season?
While I have been left ripping by many of the decisions that LVG has made both in personnel and (more so) in games, I do see what he is trying to achieve with the contour of the team and have been open to seeing out his contract. The possibility, however, that Guardiola or Ancelotti (who I would rather have than G.) might be available soon doesn't leave us in any position to do this, regardless of how well or badly LVG is doing. LVG has admitted himself that United is his last job so it would be just a matter of time before he steps down or is sacked.
I think he should be given time during the season to work with the squad he's put together but in the spring, the club has a very major decision to make if either of those managers express their desire to sign with us. My main problem is that after the Moyes fiasco, I'm not at all confident we have the right people to make it.
I think he should be given time during the season to work with the squad he's put together but in the spring, the club has a very major decision to make if either of those managers express their desire to sign with us. My main problem is that after the Moyes fiasco, I'm not at all confident we have the right people to make it.
I honestly believe he's great. Great entertainment value, at least. Not the football so much, but the man. And since we're only allowed to care about results OR entertainment (never both!) I have to go with entertainment. Thus, I'm a Louis boy. A Louis fanboy, in fact.
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