LVG Out Thread | BBC: Sacked!

[Burrow]

The level of toxic! Fans shouting for their players to attack is toxic now? What next? Fans shouting 'shoot' when a player is near the penalty box will be used as a cause for players failing to score and performing miserably?
What contribution would you want from fans? They have been very, very patient (at least the match going fans) and the ones here on the caf don't affect LVG at the slightest. You think when we gloated about our wins, the media was heaping praises on our team and SAF? They were still calling it the worst United team they have witnessed but the players had a man like Sir Alex at the helm who knew how to manage them and get them to play as a team who do not know when they are beaten. Loot at us now. As soon as we concede a goal, the whole team looks like they have given up. That all starts from right at the top - from the manager.

No, you're right. The fans shouting attack is indeed not toxic and I apologise if that is what you gathered from my posts. The booing during the game, the whistling when trying to play a patient game and the booing at HT/FT, all of which I've never experienced from our fans, is the toxic part of it. The attack-chants are more than justified, I just simply dont see how it will benefit the club in any way. It'll only benefit the selfish fan who is more concerned about his own need to jeer the team, rather than support the team when they need it.

Again, I agree that we've not been good enough and that we've been more or less the most boring I've ever seen us. But the way we're going, we're creating our own negative spiral which is extremely hard to stop.
Clearly what we're posting on this forum is not affecting van Gaal, it does however affect the clubs supporters and I'm certain it'll affect the match going fans who is posting on this board. I'm certain that a supportive, and positive set of fans on this board will affect the mood for some of the supporters attenting our games, and might cause a few people to chant and cheer rather than boo us. I might be naive, but that is my opinion on that matter.

I also agree with you at the latter part of your post. We look beaten as soon as things are not going how we hoped for, but that is more or less my point; How do you think us, the fans, could help this situation? By booing and whistling, or by getting behind the club and try to cheer them on? It's not my opinion that the boos are not justified, I simply dont see how any part of the club benefits from it.

 

[POF]

I understand your point but you are wrong, while the fans aren't helping with the attack chants, our problem has always been the lack of quality in our attacking play. I'm sure that I'm not the only who thought that our attack was wank last season and that it was the priority this summer.
Personally I expected to see us in a crisis at some point, I expected to see our draws become loses and our tight wins, draws.
We were always going to pay the absence of synergy in that team.

Absolutely. Even during that run of good form towards the end of last season, the main threat was Young crossing for Fellaini and they were quickly found out. Adding some quality as an attacking unit was vital in the summer. Instead, the decision appeared to be to set the team up more defensively and reduce the attacking options.

When the comments were being made that United had a great defence and just needed the attack to click I really hoped that was true, but unfortunately it's not that simple.

 

[Godfather]

The root cause of the toxicity right now is the massive OVER reaction from our fans.

We have only just come out of top 4 and wiretap of table just 5 weeks ago. Even when we were top of the table, 50% of fans on here were whinging and complaining, giving the press enough space to build tension and pressure for no need whatsoever.

That has now worked itself into our dressing room and into the minds of the players.

We have played unbelievable dull football though. As long as the results were right this is still bearable. It was only natural that when the results aren't there anymore that the fans will turn on LvG at some point with the football he is serving us week in week out. Don't see much of an overreaction. We have the worst run of games since 1961.

 

[Burrow]

The problems at the back started with all those injuries we have atm. Rojo is three times the full back Blind is. Blind is a better CB then Jones. Young is not a defender full stop. Darmian has gone to shit or has been injured. Valencia is injured. Those are the things that crippled us at the back. With Schweinsteiger out and LvG's idiotic idea to field a Carrick-Fellaini midfield our defence gets zero pretection as well. Those are the things that are killing us. Not the fans or their chants.

If you aknowledge that our problems is due to all our injuried, how will a change of manager / CEO / board members help in any way? How will the booing and jeering help us through the injury crisis?

 

[JPRouve]

It's funny that the fans seem to think that players are like robots or should never be affected by sentiment or should just be able to buckle down and perform because they are paid six- seven-figure salaries.

It is of course true that the football was boring and there was much to improve on. I don't think anyone disputes that many things could be done better.

But there was so much brouhaha and negativity that it has become a wave that is sweeping across the club. You are right, we used to have guys like Bruce, Keane, Cantona and even Sir Alex himself was an immovable rock. But it is no longer the case, there is no player in our club that swaggers like Cantona even when chips are down, and no player like Keane who single-handedly refuses to lose. The club dynamic is very difficult, and Sir Alex's words to "get behind our manager" have long been forgotten.

The real problem has never been that the football was boring, the fans who attacked the team because of that are... well they are something, the problem is that we weren't good, we were winning games while playing "badly" and you can't sustain that, there is only to roads from there you either improve your level of performances and the wins will continue or you continue to play badly and you will begin to lose.
The players and the staff aren't idiots they knew that we weren't playing well, I remember one of our player saying that we needed to improve our performances even though we were winning and since we didn't improved when we begun to lose they had nothing to cling on, they lost confidence game after game.

 

[UnitedinRed]

In any job I worked at, if everyone is complaining about the style of a certain manager, or he isn't getting the desired results he will be under scrutiny. It works the same here.

Who is complaining at the club? It's certainly not everyone. Just the work shy sackers. Probably as it is anywhere tbh.

Which is a good way to describe many of our senior players right now. Slackers.

 

[RedPnutz]

I think the dull uninspired football is the reason for the start of the toxicity, when we started continuously losing that's when the shit really hit the fan.

The fans aren't the fault here.

Well, we were dull but near the top of the table a while ago, and you can trace back to some of the threads and there were still fans who were being negative. It was further fueled by the media, and more fans hopped on the narrative.

No one is saying the fans are solely to blame. There isn't one party that is solely to blame. A lot of it is LVG's doing no doubt, but when the fans started to boo the accelerates the decline.

 

[UnitedinRed]

But they had the same uninspired dull football under Moyes - so why did he not face the same level of toxicity? Seriously, why is that? Is it because he's British?

Yes.

Oh and because Moyes was apparently the Chosen one

 

[SalfordRed1960]

In any job I worked at, if everyone is complaining about the style of a certain manager, or he isn't getting the desired results he will be under scrutiny. It works the same here.

Can you elaborate on who is complaining. The fans and media YES, ex-players YES, current players?

 

[sammsky1]

We have played unbelievable dull football though. As long as the results were right this is still bearable. It was only natural that when the results aren't there anymore that the fans will turn on LvG at some point with the football he is serving us week in week out. Don't see much of an overreaction. We have the worst run of games since 1961.

Lets not rewrite history!

Its while we were playing 'unbearable football but still winning' that the dissent started from fans and many turned against him. I cant be bothered but its all documented with time and dates here on the cafe.

And thats the moment the press started the 'LVG under pressure' narrative, which was a lie as the board were perfectly happy with him.

But with incessant reporting, this dissatisfaction has led the players and manager to lose all confidence.

Of course LVG and the players are to blame for this mess, but the fans have also played a role.

 

[ravi2]

But they had the same uninspired dull football under Moyes - so why did he not face the same level of toxicity? Seriously, why is that? Is it because he's British?

Were you here when Moyes was manager?
Especially towards the end pretty much everyone wanted Moyes gone, and after hearing him talk crap about SAF and the club I damn near hated him.

 

[walkinhop]

What a load of goat dung. Football has become a miserable ballerina pseudo-sport, i see. Let's forget these mellow special snowflakes are millionaires and most of them as stupid as a rusty bucket. Let's forget that and ask ourselves how could we possibly destroy the club by chanting and giving ammo to the media. We are terrible aren't we? You are probably right, we should not pay tens of pounds to see some bravery. Buying a ticket doesn't give anyone a right to an opinion. You need to sit, watch and swallow everything you are presented with.

This reminds me of politics. You vote for them, you pay taxes and their salaries. You should not say a word when they fail, right? You shouldn't blame your PM for ruining the economy or sending your children to war, right? You should be patient cuz he is a special snowflake who needs support, right?

Am i so strange for wanting passion and a fighting spirit from everyone involved with the football matters at our club? Am i so bad for wanting soft, spineless apologists like Juan "I am Sorry" Mata and Luis "You should van be Sorry" Gaal to go show some fire or get lost? I get it, football is a business. But, i know no business where failure, disinterest, and resignation are tolerated. Show some guts will ya?

 

[Oneunited26]

So basically we are shite because the fans shouted 'attack, attack, attack' and the media were getting on our case because we were playing dull football.

According to some our free fall is partly down to because we are spoilt.

 

[Godfather]

If you aknowledge that our problems is due to all our injuried, how will a change of manager / CEO / board members help in any way? How will the booing and jeering help us through the injury crisis?

Because we played crap football even when we didnt have those injuries. Because a Wayne Rooney is still a massive part of this team albeit not performing at all. AND because we should still perform way better than we are right now irrespective of our injuries. Beause we have had our fair share of injuries in the past as well and coped better. Because it was LVGs idea to get rid of so many players that could actually help us right now. Because we just can't find a way to score goals anymore.
It's a million reasons why LvG should have been sacked without even mentioned his groundbreaking records of 4 looses in row. And our board is still there waiting, not knowing what to do. The fans were the first to turn on Moyes when it was all too obvious he wasn't the right man. They were right to and it was to our benefit as he got the sack. The same goes now for LvG.

 

[PvsNP]

https://twitter.com/Smudge1962

Anyone who knows who this guy is? He has almost 100k followers, including Ducker, Ladyman and even Sky Sports Football official account.

Anyway, he claims that LvG has offered to resign twice the past few months, but Woodward talked him out of it. In the case it happens, SAF would be willing to help Giggs apparently. Also, the Glazers would consider Mourinho, but 'key individuals' are opposed to the idea.

 

[RedPnutz]

That's where it's heading - Giggs in charge - unless someone on our board suddenly gets some common sense. LVG will quit - and you'll have Giggs and attacking football.

I think we should have Giggs as manager. Not because I think he will be a good manager. But between seeing fans wishing for us to lose against Stoke and Chelsea, I figure we should just bite the bullet and solve the mystery of whether Giggs is qualified or not. Certainly will shut the media and his old mates up.

 

[jojojo]

The objections from the fans weren't just that we were boring, it was a belief that we were lucky to be getting anything out of games. The idea that our supposed defensive solidity was actually nothing more profound than us playing 6 at the back. When we stopped scraping results and started picking up draws in games we had to win (like PSV at home) the mood was more of a "told you so". Nothing to do with carping by Scholes or the media narrative - it was happening in front of our eyes.

LvG tried to change it because he had to. He had to try and win in Wolfsburg. Drawing matches in the PL doesn't give you a top 4 place. When he tried to change it, the forward gear wasn't there - all that happened is the defence fell apart. Blaming the crowd for it is just bizarre. LvG should have seen it coming - that's his job.

 

[ravi2]

Well, we were dull but near the top of the table a while ago, and you can trace back to some of the threads and there were still fans who were being negative. It was further fueled by the media, and more fans hopped on the narrative.

No one is saying the fans are solely to blame. There isn't one party that is solely to blame. A lot of it is LVG's doing no doubt, but when the fans started to boo the accelerates the decline.

I supported LVG till it was clear he was taking us nowhere and the fans only started chanting attack when it seemed like we were doing everything but.
No one wants to hear booing or to see planes with banners but the board is putting the fans in a tough spot with the silence. Back LVG or sack him.

 

[AltiUn]

https://twitter.com/Smudge1962

Anyone who knows who this guy is? He has almost 100k followers, including Ducker, Ladyman and even Sky Sports Football official account.

Anyway, he claims that LvG has offered to resign twice the past few months, but Woodward talked him out of it. In the case it happens, SAF would be willing to help Giggs apparently. Also, the Glazers would consider Mourinho, but 'key individuals' are opposed to the idea.

Now that I can get behind!

 

[Sparky Rhiwabon]

https://twitter.com/Smudge1962

Anyone who knows who this guy is? He has almost 100k followers, including Ducker, Ladyman and even Sky Sports Football official account.

Anyway, he claims that LvG has offered to resign twice the past few months, but Woodward talked him out of it. In the case it happens, SAF would be willing to help Giggs apparently. Also, the Glazers would consider Mourinho, but 'key individuals' are opposed to the idea.

Bobby Charlton is one of them, I understand.

 

[Godfather]

Lets not rewrite history!

Its while we were playing 'unbearable football but still winning' that the dissent started from fans and many turned against him. I cant be bothered but its all documented with time and dates here on the cafe.

And thats the moment the press started the 'LVG under pressure' narrative, which was a lie as the board were perfectly happy with him.

But with incessant reporting, this dissatisfaction has led the players and manager to lose all confidence.

Of course LVG and the players are to blame for this mess, but the fans have also played a role.

We were grinding out draws when it happened. Not when we won. The media probably tunred on him earlier. The fans didn't. Certainly not the matchgoers.

 

[Spoony]

https://twitter.com/Smudge1

Anyone who knows who this guy is? He has almost 100k followers, including Ducker, Ladyman and even Sky Sports Football official account.

Anyway, he claims that LvG has offered to resign twice the past few months, but Woodward talked him out of it. In the case it happens, SAF would be willing to help Giggs apparently. Also, the Glazers would consider Mourinho, but 'key individuals' are opposed to the idea.

Giggs and Ferguson could be like Dalglish and Paisley, the key difference however, is the fact that Liverpool weren't off the pace when 'kin Kenny took over.

 

[Oneunited26]

But I didn't have a problem with us being solid - I felt the attack would have been sorted out. Now we're no longer solid. Everything's now gone to shit. We should have been more patient at least and stop putting pressure on the manager and players to get our attack going. If LVG was being shit about it then things should have been said and sorted behind the scenes. That's the point - put all your dirty bits out in public and things get out of control. NOBODY is absolving LVG - only saying other matters have contributed to the mess.

Our attack was going to be sorted when he sells Nani, di Maria, RVP, Hernandez, lets falcao go, sends janazaj and Wilson on loan, makes Rooney captain and puts all our hopes and a out of form striker can carry the attack, and never replaced the numbers of the players we sold. Yea that is solving the attack out

 

[JPRouve]

The objections from the fans weren't just that we were boring, it was a belief that we were lucky to be getting anything out of games. The idea that our supposed defensive solidity was actually nothing more profound than us playing 6 at the back. When we stopped scraping results and started picking up draws in games we had to win (like PSV at home) the mood was more of a "told you so". Nothing to do with carping by Scholes or the media narrative - it was happening in front of our eyes.

LvG tried to change it because he had to. He had to try and win in Wolfsburg. Drawing matches in the PL doesn't give you a top 4 place. When he tried to change it, the forward gear wasn't there - all that happened is the defence fell apart. Blaming the crowd for it is just bizarre. LvG should have seen it coming - that's his job.

Exactly, a lot of posters predicted a future crisis.

 

[Jazz]

Were you here when Moyes was manager?
Especially towards the end pretty much everyone wanted Moyes gone, and after hearing him talk crap about SAF and the club I damn near hated him.

Fine. But just puzzled as to why the fans in the stadium did not react to him the way they are baying for LVG's blood right now. It's crazy as well because LVG will surely go win or lose today - he's completely lost his confidence.
I know Moyes was friends with the media - but if the fans were similarly dissatisfied, why did they not react to what was happening then? Why the vitriol now towards this particular man? Surely that's a consequence of being influenced by the media and others? So fans are suseptible to outside influences I think. That's the point of all these back and forth posts - we as fans would have probably been best served by staying firmly behind the team even at the point where the media was stoking the flames. We gave them exactly what they wanted and it's contributed to the loss of confidence all round. (let me repeat - not absolving LVG and players for any mess as well).

 

[Burrow]

Because we played crap football even when we didnt have those injuries. Because a Wayne Rooney is still a massive part of this team albeit not performing at all. AND because we should still perform way better than we are right now irrespective of our injuries. Beause we have had our fair share of injuries in the past as well and coped better. Because it was LVGs idea to get rid of so many players that could actually help us right now. Because we just can't find a way to score goals anymore.
It's a million reasons why LvG should have been sacked without even mentioned his groundbreaking records of 4 looses in row. And our board is still there waiting, not knowing what to do. The fans were the first to turn on Moyes when it was all too obvious he wasn't the right man. They were right to and it was to our benefit as he got the sack. The same goes now for LvG.

See, the part about claiming to have knowledge to the boards thinking, both now and during the end of Moyes, is my gripe with this forum. We assume everything benefiting our own point of view and run with it as a fact.

I dont agree with you on your assumptions though, but it's no point going back and forth with the same arguments and such.

 

[RedPnutz]

In any job I worked at, if everyone is complaining about the style of a certain manager, or he isn't getting the desired results he will be under scrutiny. It works the same here.

True. But then the complaints in any of the jobs we normally work at don't include a barrage of negative media comments. Also if a manager is a boring cnut but getting some results, I don't think it will be as intense though.

 

[RedPnutz]

No, you're right. The fans shouting attack is indeed not toxic and I apologise if that is what you gathered from my posts. The booing during the game, the whistling when trying to play a patient game and the booing at HT/FT, all of which I've never experienced from our fans, is the toxic part of it. The attack-chants are more than justified, I just simply dont see how it will benefit the club in any way. It'll only benefit the selfish fan who is more concerned about his own need to jeer the team, rather than support the team when they need it.

Again, I agree that we've not been good enough and that we've been more or less the most boring I've ever seen us. But the way we're going, we're creating our own negative spiral which is extremely hard to stop.
Clearly what we're posting on this forum is not affecting van Gaal, it does however affect the clubs supporters and I'm certain it'll affect the match going fans who is posting on this board. I'm certain that a supportive, and positive set of fans on this board will affect the mood for some of the supporters attenting our games, and might cause a few people to chant and cheer rather than boo us. I might be naive, but that is my opinion on that matter.

I also agree with you at the latter part of your post. We look beaten as soon as things are not going how we hoped for, but that is more or less my point; How do you think us, the fans, could help this situation? By booing and whistling, or by getting behind the club and try to cheer them on? It's not my opinion that the boos are not justified, I simply dont see how any part of the club benefits from it.

I see what you are saying and I agree with a lot of your points. It is a balanced view. Pity a lot of posters are choosing to pick up on one or two points out of context and then going apeshit over them.

 

[Jazz]

Our attack was going to be sorted when he sells Nani, di Maria, RVP, Hernandez, lets falcao go, sends janazaj and Wilson on loan, makes Rooney captain and puts all our hopes and a out of form striker can carry the attack, and never replaced the numbers of the players we sold. Yea that is solving the attack out

I don't believe he didn't try to replace those players - he just didn't get who he wanted. Ideally the club and LVG should have had a proper list to choose from - not just superstars - so yes they made huge mistakes there. But to say it like he didn't think we needed those reinforcements I don't think is fair. Out of the list you posted, I would only have kept Hernandez. RVP was not ready to play second fiddle and the club tied themselves up with Rooney - nothing LVG could do with that. Making Rooney captain though is one of his biggest mistakes - that can't be defended.

 

[Fully Fledged]

Lets not rewrite history!

Its while we were playing 'unbearable football but still winning' that the dissent started from fans and many turned against him. I cant be bothered but its all documented with time and dates here on the cafe.

And thats the moment the press started the 'LVG under pressure' narrative, which was a lie as the board were perfectly happy with him.

But with incessant reporting, this dissatisfaction has led the players and manager to lose all confidence.

Of course LVG and the players are to blame for this mess, but the fans have also played a role.

When have we been winning this season? September? Yes we had a good run of wins. October? No we won once. November? started well won the first 3 but then we dropped off again and haven't won since. This whole idea that we were consistently winning matches while playing the dull football is totally wrong. We had won 3 in 10 before the chants of attack attack attack started.

 

[Sammyjunn]

So because I want my team to score goals, have shots on target and create chances, Im a spoilt fan? Great.

 

[J-Stander]

https://twitter.com/Smudge1962

Anyone who knows who this guy is? He has almost 100k followers, including Ducker, Ladyman and even Sky Sports Football official account.

Anyway, he claims that LvG has offered to resign twice the past few months, but Woodward talked him out of it. In the case it happens, SAF would be willing to help Giggs apparently. Also, the Glazers would consider Mourinho, but 'key individuals' are opposed to the idea.

We need to move on from the Fergie era so I don't think that'd be a good idea at all. Nothing wrong with him helping in a background capacity but id assume he'd do that anyway, any more than that and it's overstepping the line.

 

[Catt]

Obviously SAF is coming back since no one can get their act together and agree on Mourinho or Giggs.

 

[RedPnutz]

The real problem has never been that the football was boring, the fans who attacked the team because of that are... well they are something, the problem is that we weren't good, we were winning games while playing "badly" and you can't sustain that, there is only to roads from there you either improve your level of performances and the wins will continue or you continue to play badly and you will begin to lose.
The players and the staff aren't idiots they knew that we weren't playing well, I remember one of our player saying that we needed to improve our performances even though we were winning and since we didn't improved when we begun to lose they had nothing to cling on, they lost confidence game after game.

You are right. A small section of the fans were attacking the team even when results were good. And I agree, we were not winning well but grinding out a lot of games.

I don't disagree with any of that at all. At the point where the players started to lose confidence, I don't think having the fans boo and the media on the case helped any of that. In fact, the increased negative sentiment likely exacerbated it.

 

[MrSingh2002]

LVG killed Utd by thinning our squad and attack in particular.

Time for Utd to kill him now.

 

[Godfather]

https://twitter.com/Smudge1962

Anyone who knows who this guy is? He has almost 100k followers, including Ducker, Ladyman and even Sky Sports Football official account.

Anyway, he claims that LvG has offered to resign twice the past few months, but Woodward talked him out of it. In the case it happens, SAF would be willing to help Giggs apparently. Also, the Glazers would consider Mourinho, but 'key individuals' are opposed to the idea.

Didn't SAF also help Moyes and LvG? Just get him back full stop. Giggsy....dear god.

 

[cyberman]

Giggs with SAF as a key and close advisor is a different proposition..

 

[Jazz]

Didn't SAF also help Moyes and LvG? Just get him back full stop. Giggsy....dear god.

We are too big an organisation for that kind of trumped up management with Giggs and SAF helping him? How are players supposed to respect Giggs if he needs propping up. If SAF comes back it must be on an interim basis whilst they try to find a new manager. Glazers should also not be bullied - if they want Jose so be it. Anyone who doesn't like it too bad - they don't own the club.

 

[jojojo]

But they had the same uninspired dull football under Moyes - so why did he not face the same level of toxicity? Seriously, why is that? Is it because he's British?

Moyes didn't survive long enough. He was still covered by the protective shield of SAF's "back the manager" speech and the idea that it wasn't the United Way to be critical of a failing manager. It did turn towards the end - they had to put stewards to protect that ridiculous "chosen one" banner. If he'd scrambled his way into survival with a top 4 place, people would have expected some improvement in season two.

 

[ravi2]

True. But then the complaints in any of the jobs we normally work at don't include a barrage of negative media comments. Also if a manager is a boring cnut but getting some results, I don't think it will be as intense though.

I believe the barrage of public comments comes from being the manger of one of the most high profile sports teams in the game. Any MUFC manager will be in the spotlight, especially after we had so much success and now it seems we are headed in the other direction. I believe this would have happened to anyone getting the results he is getting.