LV Monopoly D: R1 - Jayvin vs crappy

With players at peak, who will win the match?

  • Total voters
    28
  • Poll closed .
I get what you are saying about Puyol but take him out that Barcelona team of recent years and they aren't as successful.
 
Edgar Allan Pillow said:
I don't think anyone actually dismissed him yet. The only comments from myself and Iso were to the extend he's probably the weakest of the 4 CBs sported between these teams. Again just an opinion, maybe because Zmuda hasn't featured/sold in drafts before.
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He featured in the 50s draft and probably in the original All-Time draft with it being one player per country (if he didn't, he would/should have bossed the reserves one someone pointed out to me a few days ago).

I've always had him up my sleeve as a "safe to leave late as no one will pick him" option to use if things went tits up with my defensive plans, it just never happened. One big problem obviously is the lack of publicity/support he gets, similar thing with Deyna whom I haven't seen before (I assume he would have featured in the 40s and maybe that reserves draft too). With Lato it's easier (goal stats are easier to sell than playmaking or non-goals) and Boniek started playing later so got a good outing in Serie A.

The other issue is that if you haven't seen him I suppose your only other source of insight is something like PES stats, which I wouldn't expect to project his qualities appropriately (see posts exchanged with Enigma). He is an odd one to pair given the usual hard on for ball-playing + stopper. He always had an all-action stopper charging and breaking up play, while he swept up. He looked slow and laid back, which aren't qualities the draft community want associated with their defenders (e.g. Vidic being a draft nightmare despite being monstruous for us), but he always invariably got there first simply because he could see danger coming a mile away. And when he got there... he wasn't elegant in his demeanour, he had the physical traits and hard-as-nails toughness that characterised many of these Eastern bloc players. I suppose if you haven't seen much of him you could get caught in two minds as to whether he need a stopper or can play stopper himself seeing as he clearly ain't no fanny. Actually, quite similar to Bobby Moore when you think about it that way.

It's a bit of a shame it ended up overshadowing much of the game, but it is precisely because he rarely gets an outing that I wasn't having this lazy not-arsed statements thrown about. Only Nesta is clearly a cut above individually (and far easier to slot into any defence) but the more interesting discussion would have been comparing the pairs, not based on a misguided ranking logic but the application of their traits to the task at hand. Zmuda-Rio is a bit sweepery and not at all a final-worthy pairing, but the threat in this game probably needed more Zmuda and less Puyol. Nesta-Puyol lacks what Jayvin had in abundance, but you could argue it is for Sammer to provide that.

See? That would be the interesting discussions rather than having to "prove Zmuda is worthy of this company" and not "the exception to an otherwise great game to watch".
 
harms said:
In my book they are about even, depending on what system are you playing.
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Slots in seamlessly in that role, as I mentioned earlier.

STOP RANKING AND >>> <<<< INDIVIDUALS FOR GOD'S SAKE, it doesn't work that way.
 
harms said:
In my book they are about even, depending on what system are you playing.
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Agreed.

He's around 30ish CB considered in all time status in my book. In a sense I'd have 32 (if we divide it to 16 sweepers and 16 markers) CB's before him on my list if I'm to pick from an all time pool. This time round that 21 spot in terms of sweeper that Aldo posted is probably pretty accurate depiction of his all time status.

In an all time pool it's no surprise he won't feature as he's not that well known and as I've said probably you'll find 32 CB's before him, but if we have an Eastern European draft I'd be pretty sure he'll be one of the top 6 picks. On that account he'd possibly feature in an a WC draft (have we had one before?).

My judgement on him is WC and EURO's.

Speaking of EURO's there's one notable match in 1975 - the Polish side humiliated a great Dutch side with Cruyff, van Hanegem, Neeskens, Krol, etc.



This was the qualifier for the EURO, Netherlands topped the group.

Bit blurry but Zmuda played in that game and was #5 I think.

I found @Chesterlestreet comment a bit odd to be fair. Not that I've followed the Polish championship at that time, or know anything about that time, but Zmuda was ever present in almost all Polish sides throughout for 10 years or so. The guy seemed to be always fit. That caps record is also significant if you take into the consideration the era he was in - unlike today when it's easy to score 100 and more caps with all the friendly tournaments and games through the year and of course qualifiers with bigger pools.

That 70's 80's were great football times, especially on international stage. Almost all games are up Youtube or Dailymotion so there are sources for everyone interested to take a look.

I can understand why @Jayvin picked him, and kudos for that so he could spark a discussion on him.
 
Enigma_87 said:
I found @Chesterlestreet comment a bit odd to be fair. Not that I've followed the Polish championship at that time, or know anything about that time, but Zmuda was ever present in almost all Polish sides throughout for 10 years or so. The guy seemed to be always fit. That caps record is also significant if you take into the consideration the era he was in - unlike today when it's easy to score 100 and more caps with all the friendly tournaments and games through the year and of course qualifiers with bigger pools.
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I think Chester's point wasn't aimed at him being injury prone (rather the opposite, fit as a fiddle) but how his body collapsed at the wrong time. It's only in the early 80s that players from Eastern Europe started getting special permissions to ply their trade abroad and Zmuda was indeed very unlucky with injuries when he moved to Serie A.

I remember being disappointed not to see him the few times Verona games were screened (i.e. when they played Juve or the Milan sides). He then had a brief injury-ridden stint as yet another legend acquired by the NY Cosmos franchise, and by WC 1986 he was your average hugely experienced OAP of international football: a shadow of his former self with the occasional flash of greatness when the creaking body wasn't getting on its way.
 
antohan said:
I think Chester's point wasn't aimed at him being injury prone (rather the opposite, fit as a fiddle) but how his body collapsed at the wrong time. It's only in the early 80s that players from Eastern Europe started getting special permissions to ply their trade abroad and Zmuda was indeed very unlucky with injuries when he moved to Serie A.

I remember being disappointed not to see him the few times Verona games were screened (i.e. when they played Juve or the Milan sides). He then had a brief injury-ridden stint as yet another legend acquired by the NY Cosmos franchise, and by WC 1986 he was your average hugely experienced OAP of international football: a shadow of his former self with the occasional flash of greatness when the creaking body wasn't getting on its way.
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I see, maybe I didn't understand him correctly. My point is that I don't think injuries prevented him to receive acclaim during those years IMO in a sense that he missed important tournaments or not being fit to play. Afterwards he was past it and probably injuries played their part, granted.
 
The Netherland game sealed the comparison - I always though about them with Ondrus together, although Zmuda was clearly a cut above, but they were quite similar stylistically. Odrus' lack of speed was even more noticeable yet he captained the side that smashed Cruyff/Neeskens etc in the Euro semi-finals, he even scored two goals in that game (one in his own but who cares). He also lead his team to Bronze medals 4 years later.



And from that game there is also one of my all-time favorite football pictures, especially when you know that after 120 minutes Cruyff will pack his things (the team stayed for the 3rd place match, he didn't):
pennantExchange_netherland_czech.jpg
 
Chesterlestreet said:
I find the Zmuda discussion interesting: Touches on the very core of what these things are – or should be – as anto suggests as well.

I find the dismissal of him quite odd, though. Based on stats you can (almost) as easily dismiss Deyna, Gadocha, Lato, etc. Their prime years were spent in the Polish league – which is simply a reflection of the times, not an indication of their quality (this story is so common that it really shouldn't be necessary to point it out).

There is sufficient footage of Zmuda available to get a pretty good idea about what sort of player he was – so either you're arsed to do that, or you're not. Seems clear cut to me. His reputation among those who saw him play – or who's been arsed to check him out – is stellar.

As a side note, one could add that Zmuda suffered – reputation wise, in this context – from two factors: Firstly, the era (see above) and secondly – injuries. He was still in his presumed prime when he went to Italy – but he was injured for most of his stint with Verona, and hardly featured for them. And then he was thirty – and bang, what can you do?
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Except no one really dismissed Zmuda and all my original post was saying was that I think it should be on the manager or neutral to argue FOR a player. The whole comments about "dismissing Zmuda" or whatever were a complete strawman and instead of valid arguments being presented it simply descended into playground name calling which doesn't contribute to anything.

I think its hypocritical to at the same time suggest that Zmuda is not well known because he played "behind the Iron Curtain' but then act like anyone who doesn't instantly know Zmuda is an "idiot", "retard" or told to "feck off".

That doesn't contribute anything to making these threads better. If people actually want good discussion or players that they rate to get recognized then they should simply post better and not make ad hominems.
 
oneniltothearsenal said:
Except no one really dismissed Zmuda and all my original post was saying was that I think it should be on the manager or neutral to argue FOR a player. The whole comments about "dismissing Zmuda" or whatever were a complete strawman and instead of valid arguments being presented it simply descended into playground name calling which doesn't contribute to anything.

I think its hypocritical to at the same time suggest that Zmuda is not well known because he played "behind the Iron Curtain' but then act like anyone who doesn't instantly know Zmuda is an "idiot", "retard" or told to "feck off".

That doesn't contribute anything to making these threads better. If people actually want good discussion or players that they rate to get recognized then they should simply post better and not make ad hominems.
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Maybe you should read how the whole thing started again? It was all quite civil and getting constructive until that stupid agenda of yours questioning anyone's personal views came up.

You have this bad habit of turning ignorance into virtue and casting shadows on the legitimacy of anyine claiming to know something you don't.

It's not a fecking trial (or Werewolf) it's a game-based excuse for discussing football and sharing knowledge/experience and your "logic" runs counter to it from its very foundations.

Edgar Allan Pillow said:
As a diamond aficionado, I can only admire crappy's side. But on the other hand, Davids/Keane/Platini is one kick ass midfield :drool:

Zmuda aside, this would be so much fun to watch irl.
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antohan said:
What's wrong with Zmuda? A top class CB if I ever saw one.
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Edgar Allan Pillow said:
In an all time draft?
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antohan said:
I don't see the problem at all. Him not being a draft regular doesn't hide the fact he was as instrumental to that great Polish era as Deyna, Lato or Boniek. In fact, he is the only constant in it.

Easily in the Top 5 in the World for an entire decade, while many of the usual suspects on here just have the odd grand tourno (if that).
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Isotope said:
Javy's Gk, defence (other than Zmuda) and midfield are Final worthy. Imho, only few players in the pool can do better job than Robben as attacking RM also.
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antohan said:
I would actually appreciate someone putting some substance behind so many dissing remarks.
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Enigma_87 said:
You obviously rate him pretty high, anto, however I just don't see it. Zmuda had his limitations from what I've seen from him and pace is one of them. I don't think he was particularly great in the air either, considering his height, nor particularly good on the ball.

Don't get me wrong he's a top defender, but in terms of all time pool I can think of many others that would come on top if we're to get the best CB's in history.

He was strong, and by that I mean very strong, excellent organizer and read the game pretty well - of course these qualities are well appreciated and he didn't rely purely on the physical aspect of the game, but to me he's around Puyol level, who, is entirely different defender and I'm not fond of him either, but his leadership and organizational qualities with a great all rounder in Nesta is a pretty good fit in terms of CB pair.
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antohan said:
Thanks for taking the trouble. I'd agree with your assessment entirely, bar the relative importance placed on his strengths.

Let me put it this way: nobody picks Baresi for being the fastest or aerially dominant. There's no one physical attribute that makes him stand out in an All Time pool, but he would still be a muppet dream in a final.

I don't mean to compare them, Baresi's non-strengths weren't real weaknesses (while pace definitely was with the older Zmuda) but just wanted to qualify the relative importance of attributes: there's always space for Zmuda in a backline unless you have a better organiser and game-reader.

The issue here really isn't Zmuda, but how a partnership with Rio would pan out. It's not a great pairing TBH. You want both organising and I rate Zmuda higher at that, but you also want a no-nonsense physically privileged stopper next to them, which Rio isn't.
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Edgar Allan Pillow said:
Come on. That surely is an exaggeration. I'm not saying he's a sheep or anything, but do you have anything to back that up? Apart from best young player, he had no performance recognition in the world cups he played, not a regular feature in Top Polish footballers lists by whoever. If he's a top CB for a decade, surely there must be more official recognition?
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antohan said:
Looks like you are the one with nothing to back up the running down of a player.

Let's go back to your original statement:



Because you can't find awards or his name on lists? Out of order really.
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Enigma_87 said:
That's fair. I agree with what you've said there and also on Zmuda/Rio partnership. Younger Rio has tons of space so that would come in handy but he's not the ideal partner for him.
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Edgar Allan Pillow said:
If you claim someone is special or best of a decade, then there must be some recognition to that effect, right? I don't know much about Zmuda and whatever I managed to research (briefly, I give you) doesn't point him to be a great out of Poland esp in all time context. Not saying he's a mug here, to be clear.
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oneniltothearsenal said:
This sounds backwards.

In an all time context Zmuda name does not ring out and he really lacks the individual honors and credentials.

Its the job of his manager or a neutral to convince observers why zmuda is not out of his depth not the other way round.
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antohan said:
The manager lives in Australia, fat chance he can address it in a timely fashion.

I take issue with it because I lived through that period when Poland was a force to be reckoned with and Zmuda their defensive lynchpin and organiser extraordinaire at the back.

He played in Poland, behind the Iron Curtain, there will never be much to go on bar the WCs and at each and every one of those I witnessed/can remember his name was up there with the very best and his performances always backed up the hype.

"Come up with lists and individual honours". Or maybe a YT compilation? Just because you've never been arsed to watch the man before dissing him. feck off.

Typed on my cell in between changing nappies
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oneniltothearsenal said:
You still got it backwards logically. You are making the positive assertion its on you to provide supporting evidence for your argument. Its not valid let alone sounds to fall back on some nonsenisvsl "feck off" wind up crap. How did you watch so much Zmuda to act so condescending anyway? Lived in Poland in 1970s as well ?
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antohan said:
The onus is always on the ignorant statement. Saying this game would be worth warching bar Zmuda reaks of ignorance.

I'm not the manager, it's not for me to produce a full profile on a player I grew up watching in 4/5 of his World Cups. As with any World Cup, there were teams and stars to watch out for and both Poland and Zmuda were right up there in a way many other "draft regulars" never were.

It's a discussion board, I asked someone to substantiate the non-rating of him. We've been here before, there's no point discussing against "he doesn't feature on a fecking internet vote-based list". I wouldn't expect Zmuda lovers to weigh heavily on those for obvious reasons.

Enigma provided a sound and rather accurate basis for discussion based on actual observation. We can obviously differ on how we weigh things, but that is constructive and the other idiotic statso stance isn't.
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antohan said:
Just so we are clear, as those more familiar with me will know, it's nothing personal with @Edgar Allan Pillow or @Isotope.

I just don't like people dissing great players based on the square root of feck all.
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antohan said:
Maybe you should read how the whole thing started again?
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There is a big difference between dismissing someone and not rating him as an all time great. Iso's comment was that Zmuda is not final worthy...which is also fair, considering in an all time pool, there definitely is room to upgrade. For unfamiliar players we make opinions based on what we can see and read. And Zmuda comes across as solid, but nothing really to lavish about. Nobody questioned his fit here either.
 
Enigma_87 said:
I found @Chesterlestreet comment a bit odd to be fair. Not that I've followed the Polish championship at that time, or know anything about that time, but Zmuda was ever present in almost all Polish sides throughout for 10 years or so. The guy seemed to be always fit.
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I was talking about his stint with Verona. He finally left for a Western club (and a very good one at that) - but had it pretty much ruined by injuries. He has something like ten matches for them over two full seasons - at what should have been his very peak as a player. Unlucky, as they say.

And if he had been a grand success in the Serie A, his reputation (on here, I mean) would have been unquestionable, I reckon.
 
Edgar Allan Pillow said:
There is a big difference between dismissing someone and not rating him as an all time great. Iso's comment was that Zmuda is not final worthy...which is also fair, considering in an all time pool, there definitely is room to upgrade. For unfamiliar players we make opinions based on what we can see and read. And Zmuda comes across as solid, but nothing really to lavish about. Nobody questioned his fit here either.
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You certainly dismissed him (no other way to interpret a game being great except for Zmuda being in it) and Iso added to it only marginally offering no insight into why he wasn't worth it, which is why I asked for more detail on why he wasn't being rated. All well and good up to then and Enigma actually obliged.

The funny thing is the interesting discussion wasn't whether he is final worthy (he wouldn't be your first choice, but wouldn't be a weakness either) but the actual fit with Rio itself. It quite clearly wasn't getting explored because no one seemed to have the first clue about his playing style. Good basis for not rating him that one.
 
oneniltothearsenal said:
Except no one really dismissed Zmuda and all my original post was saying was that I think it should be on the manager or neutral to argue FOR a player.
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You weren't the only one who seemingly felt Zmuda was underwhelming in this company, it wasn't directed at you in particular.

As for the bit in bold, sure - that's generally how it works. But this isn't an obscure player of whom there is no footage, etc. It seems more a matter of saying "I don't know the player very well, so you need to prove he was up to it" - which is something very different in my book. It can be countered by saying "alright, then go watch him - the footage is there", unlike those cases where it really is 100% up to the manager (or any neutral who gets involved) to make a case for a player.
 
Chesterlestreet said:
I was talking about his stint with Verona. He finally left for a Western club (and a very good one at that) - but had it pretty much ruined by injuries. He has something like ten matches for them over two full seasons - at what should have been his very peak as a player. Unlucky, as they say.

And if he had been a grand success in the Serie A, his reputation (on here, I mean) would have been unquestionable, I reckon.
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Aye, anto clarified that as I thought you meant during his 20's that he had shaky injury record. He did start at an early age as a NT regular and was around for long until his injuries took a toll. Given his playing style however I might agree with you, as if his body didn't break down he might very well played up until his 40's.
 
antohan said:
The funny thing is the interesting discussion wasn't whether he is final worthy (he wouldn't be your first choice, but wouldn't be a weakness either) but the actual fit with Rio itself.
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Aye - and it's not the greatest fit, really. Which would've been a legitimate point against him: Worthy player, not a great fit alongside Rio, etc.

Bit of a strange discussion all round, one could say. But interesting enough.
 
Chesterlestreet said:
You weren't the only one who seemingly felt Zmuda was underwhelming in this company, it wasn't directed at you in particular.

As for the bit in bold, sure - that's generally how it works. But this isn't an obscure player of whom there is no footage, etc. It seems more a matter of saying "I don't know the player very well, so you need to prove he was up to it" - which is something very different in my book. It can be countered by saying "alright, then go watch him - the footage is there", unlike those cases where it really is 100% up to the manager (or any neutral who gets involved) to make a case for a player.
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Except that was never even my point but it seems got twisted and strawmanned so much mixed in with immature posts the original point got lost.

My only point was when someone makes a bold statement , it should be on them to support that statment. Claiming Zmuda was "easily top 5 in the world for a decade" is a bold statment that should be backed up by a bit more than just 'i was alive then' and then a bunch of meaningless insults.
 
Wow. 14-14.

I haven't voted because I like both teams.
 
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