LV Monopoly D: R1 - Jayvin vs crappy

With players at peak, who will win the match?

  • Total voters
    28
  • Poll closed .
Downcast said:
For a 1st round of an All-time draft, I don't see any intruder.

I've decided to use rsssf to analyze Polish players.

Player: Zmuda
Born: 6- 6-1954
Country: Poland
Caps: 91 (W51-D15-L25 – GF169-GA95 – %64.29)
Goals: 2
Age First Cap: 19 yr 137 d 21-10-1973 vs. Ireland 0-1
Age Last Cap: 32 yr 10 d 16- 6-1986 vs. Brazil 0-4
National Team Career: 12 yr 238 d


http://www.rsssf.com/miscellaneous/zmuda-intl.html
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Still don't see anything that scream 'world class', though.

Podolski has 129 caps, featured in 3 WC and 4 Euros when Germany NT was in their golden era. His Individual 'Awards' includes
Pretty impressive, eh? But no one in their right mind would have him in All Time draft.

For this 'great' players that lack of Individual Awards and Career Achievement, and never been among top of the list of best CB by many 'experts'; people who championing him as 'great' player has to make a very strong case to back it up.

The "because I said so" isn't a compelling argument to make.
 
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Jayvin said:
I don't really see any problem with Platini/Henry either. RE: Henry and Neymar, I think they can be selfless enough to make it work, despite both favouring that inside left channel, Neymar has come on in leaps and bounds with regards to his team-play in the last season or two and Henry assisted just about as much as he scored in his prime.
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IMO, you have a lovely offensive strategy. Platini is the perfect #10 to play with your other defensive players in the sense that he was also capable to play as a deep-lying playmaker & make a significant defensive contribution. Robben has a high work-rate. Henry & Neymar could interchange their responsibilities. Henry has proven with Barcelona, Arsenal, Monaco & France he could be flexible.
 
Isotope said:
Still don't see anything that scream 'world class', though.

Podolski has 129 caps, featured in 3 WC and 4 Euros when Germany NT was/is in their golden era. His Individual 'Awards' includes
Pretty impressive, eh? But no one in their right mind would have him in All Time draft.
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I didn't comment the stats. My point was just to say I'm fine with a player like Zmuda in a 1st round of an All-Time drat.

Now, if you want to compare Podolski with Zmuda, then I'd say one would be part of all All-time Poland squad while the other couldn't.

Poland

1306233_Poland.jpg



Germany: so many options. Some teams where Podolski has not the level required

drExtjc.jpg


In any case, my job is not to sell (or not) Zmuda (or Podolski BTW) :)
 
Downcast said:
I didn't comment the stats. My point was just to say I'm fine with a player like Zmuda in a 1st round of an All-Time drat.

Now, if you want to compare Podolski with Zmuda, then I'd say one would be part of all All-time Poland squad while the other couldn't.

Poland

1306233_Poland.jpg
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I know we're going a bit off course here, but that's an odd Polish team - where are Lubanski, Deyna, Symanowski, Gadocha, Musial, Anczok etc?
 
Gio said:
I know we're going a bit off course here, but that's an odd Polish team - where are Lubanski, Deyna, Symanowski, Gadocha, Musial, Anczok etc?
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Quick research. I guess the pic above is about a specific period of time.

An All-Time Poland would give something like:

gg2OjSc.jpg


But I have to say I'm not Polish or Uruguayan!
 
Enigma_87 said:
Rumenigge and Muller are better than what Jayvin offers in attack.
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Can't agree with this, I have 4 players up front all capable of scoring plenty. All 4 have a 1 in 2 scoring ratio or better (bar Robben - who is very close). Also I believe my side offers more variation and challenges to the opposition defence. ALL of my front 3 are capable of interchanging positions, and with Platini and Facchetti supporting (along with the forward forays of Davids or Keane on the counter) will spell trouble for Crappy's defence.

Not to mention with Sammer focused on Platini, there is every chance Reuter could be caught out of position on the counter and Puyol will be exposed against the pace of Neymar and Henry.
 
Gio said:
I know we're going a bit off course here, but that's an odd Polish team - where are Lubanski, Deyna, Symanowski, Gadocha, Musial, Anczok etc?
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Regardless of other 'missing players', it's pretty clear that Zmuda is in an all time Polish team, the one constant in everything I've read about him was that he was regarded as Poland's best ever defender. You can't argue with his World Cup record either, thrown in the deep end at 20 years of age and finishing 3rd. Then again 8 years later, all the while facing some of the best attackers in the world.

Enigma_87 said:
He was strong, and by that I mean very strong, excellent organizer and read the game pretty well - of course these qualities are well appreciated and he didn't rely purely on the physical aspect of the game, but to me he's around Puyol level, who, is entirely different defender and I'm not fond of him either, but his leadership and organizational qualities with a great all rounder in Nesta is a pretty good fit in terms of CB pair.
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Ferdinand was a pretty good all-rounder too, obviously his reading of the game and calm and composed defending stood out, but he was a very gifted athlete - strong, quick and an excellent tackler. So I'm not really sure why you are criticizing Zmuda for being 'Puyol level' while claiming the Spaniards organizational and leadership qualities (the same qualities you attribute to Zmuda) alongside Nesta is a better partnership.
 
Jayvin said:
Can't agree with this, I have 4 players up front all capable of scoring plenty. All 4 have a 1 in 2 scoring ratio or better (bar Robben - who is very close). Also I believe my side offers more variation and challenges to the opposition defence. ALL of my front 3 are capable of interchanging positions, and with Platini and Facchetti supporting (along with the forward forays of Davids or Keane on the counter) will spell trouble for Crappy's defence.

Not to mention with Sammer focused on Platini, there is every chance Reuter could be caught out of position on the counter and Puyol will be exposed against the pace of Neymar and Henry.
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Nah, you have an excellent attack mate, I also rate Robben highly, but crappy just edges it. Muller is the best striker on the pitch as well as Rumenigge the best supporting one. Different player to Neymar and Robben obviously, but in terms of status in the early 80's he was a monster with two Ballon D'Ors to boot and scoring 5 in the 82 WC and EURO winner in 1980.

Jayvin said:
Ferdinand was a pretty good all-rounder too, obviously his reading of the game and calm and composed defending stood out, but he was a very gifted athlete - strong, quick and an excellent tackler. So I'm not really sure why you are criticizing Zmuda for being 'Puyol level' while claiming the Spaniards organizational and leadership qualities (the same qualities you attribute to Zmuda) alongside Nesta is a better partnership.
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I agree with your assessment on Rio, but I'm not a fan of two organizers at the back. 2 stoppers with one being more well rounded one is better IMO to 2 commanding CB's. I'm not criticizing Zmuda or Puyol for that matter - obviously their achievements speak a lot of their status in the game and in this draft, they are just not my cup of tea for different reasons.

Nesta is great pair for any other CB which makes easier selecting him alongside a commanding CB or even a stopper. So Nesta with Zmuda, Puyol, Rio etc is a good pair in terms of their abilities. Zmuda with Puyol or Rio just doesn't feel right for me.
 
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Isotope said:
Still don't see anything that scream 'world class', though.

Podolski has 129 caps, featured in 3 WC and 4 Euros when Germany NT was in their golden era. His Individual 'Awards' includes
Pretty impressive, eh? But no one in their right mind would have him in All Time draft.

For this 'great' players that lack of Individual Awards and Career Achievement, and never been among top of the list of best CB by many 'experts'; people who championing him as 'great' player has to make a very strong case to back it up.

The "because I said so" isn't a compelling argument to make.
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Stats (or teamsheets randomly plucked off the internet) can't replace watching a player mate.

This is very simple: I've got no skin in it. I'm not playing, I'm not Polish, I'm not even a massive fan (clearly, else you know you would have a wall of text fawning about him). All I've done is tell people they are wrong when dissing a player they admittedly HAVEN'T SEEN PLAY.

I'm not expecting you to run home and build a shrine or sacrifice a goat to Lord Zmuda. What I DO expect (and have every right to) is that you take that info as an improvement on the initial ignorance, rather than question its veracity.

As it turns out, it seems the only way to sort this out is to pick those links @Aldo sent and point to him being ranked 21st in All Time sweepers. I haven't even looked at it (I always find as much right as I find wrong in these). Off the top of my head, I would expect Zmuda NOT to be All-Time Top 10 but make the 20 (late teens). Not miles off really.

Let's face it, I didn't say he was a GOAT, just that he was consistently TOP 5 over a decade. It was a decade packed with GOATs, mind, and one where sweepers/liberos were all the rage. Zmuda was a distinctly different type relative to the others and not watching him is definitely a loss.
 
Downcast said:
I didn't comment the stats. My point was just to say I'm fine with a player like Zmuda in a 1st round of an All-Time drat.

Now, if you want to compare Podolski with Zmuda, then I'd say one would be part of all All-time Poland squad while the other couldn't.

Poland

1306233_Poland.jpg



Germany: so many options. Some teams where Podolski has not the level required

drExtjc.jpg


In any case, my job is not to sell (or not) Zmuda (or Podolski BTW) :)
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That's a bit unfair comparison to begin with. Germany is a 4 times WC winner and 3 times EURO winner. They have tons of quality players over the years, not to mention top European sides historically like Monchengladbach, Bayern, Dortmund, Hamburg etc. Poland is relatively small in terms of all time pool and club success so naturally it's easier to make that team.

With that being said, Zmuda has been a constant presence in the golden age of Polish football and his performances on national level has been pretty solid over the years. I recall them also winning silver or bronze in the Olympics (had a great team back then) beating a relatively strong Brazil side on the way.
 
@Enigma_87

I agree with you. I just think it's unfair to compare Zmuda with Podolski in terms of 'greatness'.
 
Stupid late question: is Sammer one of the 3 central defenders in a 3-5-2 system or a #6 in a 4-4-2 system?

I mean we should have arrows on Reuter & Camacho?
 
Downcast said:
@Enigma_87

I agree with you. I just think it's unfair to compare Zmuda with Podolski in terms of 'greatness'.
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It's not unfair, just wrong. Funny thing is we've come full circle with Podolski's stats being used to show stats can be deceiving. Yet in the same breath I'm told stats are necessary to prove greatness.

It's simple: we all lived in the times of Podolski so we know that in an All Time context he is bang average. We don't need to prove it, it's bleeding obvious, yet in 30 years some drafter may use those stats to successfully argue otherwise. An oldie could easily just say "nonsense", but apparently he will have to prove averageness somehow.

And there I was thinking the entire point of this was talking about great players and learning about those that never crossed our radar. Nope, apparently they are just research competitions now and the underlying assumption is everyone is shit unless proved otherwise.
 
Close game but after going back and forth a bit I decided to go with Crappy. Both teams are pretty complete and hard to upgrade and I don't see any player being a weakness here for either side. Muller and Rummenigge were an incredible partnership and were a force without the need of natural width in the team. Even if Crappy doesn't have the typical players for a diamond I still see them working fairly well together in terms of recycling possession until the full backs are pushed up in to position or easily finding the front three without a lot of issues. I don't see why Sammer would have a bad game either in any way and he's a top notch player in the role too.

On the other hand Jayvin has a great team too and the movement and flair from those wingers and Henry would be great to watch and I don't think Platini would have any issues with Henry, in fact I think he's a pretty good fit offering a great passing range that Davids and Keane doesn't really have otherwise. It wasn't easy to try and decide a winner here, both teams being pretty complete and I guess I'm a bit influenced from just having watched Rummenigge and Muller.
 
Downcast said:
Stupid late question: is Sammer one of the 3 central defenders in a 3-5-2 system or a #6 in a 4-4-2 system?

I mean we should have arrows on Reuter & Camacho?
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See my point now @crappycraperson? It's not teamsheet cosmetics but communication.

Two options:

1) They are fullbacks in a 4-4-2 diamond that can morph into a 3-5-2 with Sammer dropping into the defence to unleash them as wingbacks.

2) On the other hand, Sammer is supposedly tracking Platini, so you could wonder about what takes precedence: minding Platini or covering for the wingbacks to go do their job.

I understand it's with arrows and with the ball Sammer helps unleash the wingbacks safely, while potentially taking some risks re:Platini (who will go deep to start the move upon recovery).

Sammer is definitely smart enough to make his own decisions and manage risks, but he is defo not chasing Platini everywhere. At least that's how it should be IMO.
 
Annahnomoss said:
Close game but after going back and forth a bit I decided to go with Crappy. Both teams are pretty complete and hard to upgrade and I don't see any player being a weakness here for either side. Muller and Rummenigge were an incredible partnership and were a force without the need of natural width in the team. Even if Crappy doesn't have the typical players for a diamond I still see them working fairly well together in terms of recycling possession until the full backs are pushed up in to position or easily finding the front three without a lot of issues. I don't see why Sammer would have a bad game either in any way and he's a top notch player in the role too.

On the other hand Jayvin has a great team too and the movement and flair from those wingers and Henry would be great to watch and I don't think Platini would have any issues with Henry, in fact I think he's a pretty good fit offering a great passing range that Davids and Keane doesn't really have otherwise. It wasn't easy to try and decide a winner here, both teams being pretty complete and I guess I'm a bit influenced from just having watched Rummenigge and Muller.
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Did you just question Roy keanes passing range, on this forum?!?!?!
 
Annahnomoss said:
Close game but after going back and forth a bit I decided to go with Crappy. Both teams are pretty complete and hard to upgrade and I don't see any player being a weakness here for either side. Muller and Rummenigge were an incredible partnership and were a force without the need of natural width in the team. Even if Crappy doesn't have the typical players for a diamond I still see them working fairly well together in terms of recycling possession until the full backs are pushed up in to position or easily finding the front three without a lot of issues. I don't see why Sammer would have a bad game either in any way and he's a top notch player in the role too.

On the other hand Jayvin has a great team too and the movement and flair from those wingers and Henry would be great to watch and I don't think Platini would have any issues with Henry, in fact I think he's a pretty good fit offering a great passing range that Davids and Keane doesn't really have otherwise. It wasn't easy to try and decide a winner here, both teams being pretty complete and I guess I'm a bit influenced from just having watched Rummenigge and Muller.
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Can't blame you mate, that's an absolutely phenomenal pairing.
 
Downcast said:
Stupid late question: is Sammer one of the 3 central defenders in a 3-5-2 system or a #6 in a 4-4-2 system?

I mean we should have arrows on Reuter & Camacho?
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It is all answered in the tactics.

- Formation: Diamond,4-1-2-1-2 / 3-4-1-2

- Reuter to play a slightly more defensive role to counter the left side while Camacho gets to play a more attacking one.

Sammer's detailed role is there as well.
 
Excellent discussion, half tempted to change my vote here, the more I think of it I can see Henry and Neymar operating in too similar an area and maybe both not being as effective. All things considered, Muller is by far and away the best forward and had the chemistry with rummenigge. It's very close this.
 
I find the Zmuda discussion interesting: Touches on the very core of what these things are – or should be – as anto suggests as well.

I find the dismissal of him quite odd, though. Based on stats you can (almost) as easily dismiss Deyna, Gadocha, Lato, etc. Their prime years were spent in the Polish league – which is simply a reflection of the times, not an indication of their quality (this story is so common that it really shouldn't be necessary to point it out).

There is sufficient footage of Zmuda available to get a pretty good idea about what sort of player he was – so either you're arsed to do that, or you're not. Seems clear cut to me. His reputation among those who saw him play – or who's been arsed to check him out – is stellar.

As a side note, one could add that Zmuda suffered – reputation wise, in this context – from two factors: Firstly, the era (see above) and secondly – injuries. He was still in his presumed prime when he went to Italy – but he was injured for most of his stint with Verona, and hardly featured for them. And then he was thirty – and bang, what can you do?
 
Changed vote. With crappy chasing the game, and Robben /Henry/Neymar/ platini offering not too much help in defence , I think crappy gets another goal to tie it up/ win
 
DavidG said:
Changed vote. With crappy chasing the game, and Robben /Henry/Neymar/ platini offering not too much help in defence , I think crappy gets another goal to tie it up/ win
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How does he get another goal while chasing the game? Crappy's team chasing the game is exactly the kind of game my team wants. Robben/Neymar/Henry with Platini and Facchetti in support is a nightmare for any defence on the counter, let alone a team with a high line and limited defensive support from midfield.
 
Jayvin said:
How does he get another goal while chasing the game? Crappy's team chasing the game is exactly the kind of game my team wants. Robben/Neymar/Henry with Platini and Facchetti in support is a nightmare for any defence on the counter, let alone a team with a high line and limited defensive support from midfield.
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It's just how I see it going In my head
 
DavidG said:
It's just how I see it going In my head
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Fair enough, can't argue with that. Just found it interesting you switched vote when my team would aboslutely have the upper hand. While ahead, Davids and Keane contiue to fight for every ball while the front 3 uses their pace and movement to trouble Crappy's defence. With Facchetti and Platini joining the attack Crappy's defence will be overwhelemed.
 
Chesterlestreet said:
I find the Zmuda discussion interesting: Touches on the very core of what these things are – or should be – as anto suggests as well.

I find the dismissal of him quite odd, though. Based on stats you can (almost) as easily dismiss Deyna, Gadocha, Lato, etc. Their prime years were spent in the Polish league – which is simply a reflection of the times, not an indication of their quality (this story is so common that it really shouldn't be necessary to point it out)
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Indeed, Zmuda's time in the Polish leagues shouldn't be held against him, coming up against the top attackers in world football he came out on top time and again. Let's not forget that at that time Eastern European players would not and could not play for the top teams in the World. So the WC was the pinnacle in terms of their rating as players. And in that sense Zmuda came out smelling of roses thanks to his impeccable WC performances.
 
Jayvin said:
How does he get another goal while chasing the game? Crappy's team chasing the game is exactly the kind of game my team wants.
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You would think so, wouldn't you?

I agree tracking back is important in finely balanced games, but if ahead I'd rather spend the last minutes with forwards who are dangerous on the break (and at the end of a pass from Platini, of all people) than those who put a shift adding bodies in a box under siege.

It's the threat of the counter that will keep that siege manageable. If there's one aspect where Platini trumps all the truly great #10s is how devastating he was when starting a counter.
 
No EAP!, i've never experienced penos and i'll be damned if you deny it from from me!
 
It's hard to counter when you're picking the ball out the back of the net
 
Would've been great if Shesternyov was playing in this game instead of mine - he and Facchetti have enough experience to avoid pennos
 
antohan said:
You would think so, wouldn't you?

I agree tracking back is important in finely balanced games, but if ahead I'd rather spend the last minutes with forwards who are dangerous on the break (and at the end of a pass from Platini, of all people) than those who put a shift adding bodies in a box under siege.

It's the threat of the counter that will keep that siege manageable. If there's one aspect where Platini trumps all the truly great #10s is how devastating he was when starting a counter.
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It's not just Platini but my whole forward line from the midfield onwards. With that front 4 in possession Crappy absolutely requires Reuter and Sammer but if they are caught forward or marking Platini, then the rest of my forward line can have their way with their defence.
 
Edgar Allan Pillow said:
I don't think anyone actually dismissed him yet. The only comments from myself and Iso were to the extend he's probably the weakest of the 4 CBs sported between these teams. Again just an opinion, maybe because Zmuda hasn't featured/sold in drafts before.
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Weakest of the 4 CBs i wouldn't agree with considering Puyol is on the pitch.
 
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