Are you talking about van Hanegem's contribution or Zidane's to be specific? From your arguments it seems you're of the view that Zidane will be underperforming because the supporting cast is not perfect for him, which is a fair argument. Is there any reason you think van hanegem will also be underperforming?
LV Monopoly D: R1 - Jayvin vs crappy
- Thread starter Edgar Allan Pillow
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Are you talking about van Hanegem's contribution or Zidane's to be specific? From your arguments it seems you're of the view that Zidane will be underperforming because the supporting cast is not perfect for him, which is a fair argument. Is there any reason you think van hanegem will also be underperforming?
I wouldn't say those roles for WvH and Suarez mirror the ones that brought the best out of them, sorry.
That's not my criticism at all.
He'd work well there with a lot of other #10s that don't dominate the ball as much as Zidane. No one, even in the Dutch team did that half as much as Zidane, quite the opposite, actually.
Not said that it is perfect myself but far, far less problematic and detrimental to the team's performance than their opposition.
You said it yourself - he sacrificed his game in that setup but still he didn't have to do it to the extent he'll have to here to keep Zidane happy, and relevant!
Neeskens, Cruyff all offered plenty without the ball and it didn't hamper the team even if WvH took the center stage. What, exactly does Zidane offer without the ball?
I got a bit tied up on Henry but after I chucked it aside I got the rest in succession.
With Crappy I got the trio (excellent) but got tied up in the midfield so long (still not sure it sits right with me) that the first scan I completely missed he was supposed to have wingbacks. It just looked like a mambo jumbo at the back.
Always bugged me that. Keep waiting for someone to put that right.
Gerd Muller is a striker born to score in any circumstances: let's say 1 game 1 goal. He is a GOAT who is a scorer of a great many goals but not a scorer of many great goals.
Kalle is a complete and versatile forward often renowned for his dribbling ability. He would bring pace and move around Gerd Muller.
I just did want to say I believe in the Zidane-Kalle-Gerd Muller connection
Is he Pipo Inzaghi now? You make him sound like a fox in the box that only ever scored sitters.
The former is of course the main problem, it is absolutely obvious once you see Zidane's team setups in the ones he was at his best. The likes of Makelele and Deschamps, with all due respect, not only were just selfless to pass it to Zizou, that is what their limit was with the ball, at the biggest stage and they plenty of other qualities off the ball which was their USP. Here if you have the two CMs being mere facilitators to Zizou (which they can be, but should they be?) it takes away a lot of what their top qualities and influence was at the highest level, which answers your second question.
Be careful, @Aldo will tell you soon that you took it way too literally.
I don't really agree with this based on what I've seen on him, but no issues with the shape of Crappy's midfield on the proviso the wing-backs offer genuine width.
I get your point especially if we look at Juve or France (Vieira-Makélélé in 2006, Deschamps-Karembeu-Petit in 1998)
But, on the other hand, as you know, Zidane can excel with less defensive players like Figo & Solari!
Yes get in
I go away to take a piss for two minutes and they score.
Thanks for taking the trouble. I'd agree with your assessment entirely, bar the relative importance placed on his strengths.
Let me put it this way: nobody picks Baresi for being the fastest or aerially dominant. There's no one physical attribute that makes him stand out in an All Time pool, but he would still be a muppet dream in a final.
I don't mean to compare them, Baresi's non-strengths weren't real weaknesses (while pace definitely was with the older Zmuda) but just wanted to qualify the relative importance of attributes: there's always space for Zmuda in a backline unless you have a better organiser and game-reader.
The issue here really isn't Zmuda, but how a partnership with Rio would pan out. It's not a great pairing TBH. You want both organising and I rate Zmuda higher at that, but you also want a no-nonsense physically privileged stopper next to them, which Rio isn't.
The way I saw it working was Facchetti going forward on one side and Thuram tucking in on the other. Crappy playing a narrow formation with no wingers suits Lilian being a 3rd CB to a tee.
Facchetti will be pretty awesome and effective in this game given the space in front of him. I think it was @Gio who mentioned what a cracking left side Jayvin has assembled and what would be a nightmare to contain, without going into discussions on Suarez's ability to defend wide and help out a fairly flamboyant defender like Reuter.
Looks like you are the one with nothing to back up the running down of a player.
Let's go back to your original statement:
Because you can't find awards or his name on lists? Out of order really.
That's fair. I agree with what you've said there and also on Zmuda/Rio partnership. Younger Rio has tons of space so that would come in handy but he's not the ideal partner for him.
It does. I think he could be quite effective here, but don't expect him to be the matchwinner.
That of course could be an issue - I can see where you are coming from, probably you have someone like Rivaldo in mind, which I won't disagree - it would be better in terms of balance.
Always bring the TV with you!I go away to take a piss for two minutes and they score.
If you claim someone is special or best of a decade, then there must be some recognition to that effect, right? I don't know much about Zmuda and whatever I managed to research (briefly, I give you) doesn't point him to be a great out of Poland esp in all time context. Not saying he's a mug here, to be clear.
This sounds backwards.
In an all time context Zmuda name does not ring out and he really lacks the individual honors and credentials.
Its the job of his manager or a neutral to convince observers why zmuda is not out of his depth not the other way round.
Are you going to just sit there and let people call him Rummy?!
Couldn't agree more. To be honest most people who pick him rarely ever go the distance in highlighting him, there have been a lot of underrated players on here who get their due credit in time usually due to a great campaign (the likes of anto and Joga come to mind who go to great lengths in making sure people see what the player's capable of). But yeah, Kalle's a mystery case in these things. Only if he had a compatriot posting here who would sort that out...
Zmuda is fine in this company. He was a central plank behind and and hugely influential in the great Poland team of that era which could have and possibly should have won the big one in '74. Like most of his compatriots, he's under appreciated - wrong side of the Iron Curtain, sexier Dutch and West German sides, and all that. Agree with Anto that there is duplication in his and Rio's styles, but up against Muller I'd rather have a bit too much reading/anticipation/organisation rather than too little. Then you also have the physicality and dynamism of both full-backs and the two central midfielders, so the overall defensive unit should function fine.
The manager lives in Australia, fat chance he can address it in a timely fashion.
I take issue with it because I lived through that period when Poland was a force to be reckoned with and Zmuda their defensive lynchpin and organiser extraordinaire at the back.
He played in Poland, behind the Iron Curtain, there will never be much to go on bar the WCs and at each and every one of those I witnessed/can remember his name was up there with the very best and his performances always backed up the hype.
"Come up with lists and individual honours". Or maybe a YT compilation? Just because you've never been arsed to watch the man before dissing him. feck off.
Typed on my cell in between changing nappies
Yeah I don't see a huge problem with him here, his relative lack of pace can be covered by my other defenders who are all quick.
I mentioned in my brief overview that Thuram will have a more conservative role going forward, while Facchetti will time his runs forward to overload Crappy's right flank. Even with Sammer helping out on that side I think the dribbling and movement of Neymar, Henry and Platini with Facchetti bombing on will be too much for Crappy's defence.
I considered Henry in a more left-wing-forward role and playing someone else at striker but couldn't find anyone I liked. Picked Kocsis as an option for later but without an abundance of crosses coming in for him it felt like a waste to play him in this game. I think the forward line I've selected would work pretty well in theory, they all have excellent movement and should interplay well. Someone mentioned before that Neymar and Robben can be 'ball-hogs', but Neymar in particular has really matured at Barca and is definitely a team player, both he and Henry can and will rack up plenty of assists.
You still got it backwards logically. You are making the positive assertion its on you to provide supporting evidence for your argument. Its not valid let alone sounds to fall back on some nonsenisvsl "feck off" wind up crap. How did you watch so much Zmuda to act so condescending anyway? Lived in Poland in 1970s as well ?
The onus is always on the ignorant statement. Saying this game would be worth warching bar Zmuda reaks of ignorance.
I'm not the manager, it's not for me to produce a full profile on a player I grew up watching in 4/5 of his World Cups. As with any World Cup, there were teams and stars to watch out for and both Poland and Zmuda were right up there in a way many other "draft regulars" never were.
It's a discussion board, I asked someone to substantiate the non-rating of him. We've been here before, there's no point discussing against "he doesn't feature on a fecking internet vote-based list". I wouldn't expect Zmuda lovers to weigh heavily on those for obvious reasons.
Enigma provided a sound and rather accurate basis for discussion based on actual observation. We can obviously differ on how we weigh things, but that is constructive and the other idiotic statso stance isn't.
Just so we are clear, as those more familiar with me will know, it's nothing personal with @Edgar Allan Pillow or @Isotope.
I just don't like people dissing great players based on the square root of feck all.
I just don't like people dissing great players based on the square root of feck all.
Just saying, he does.
http://forums.bigsoccer.com/threads/the-100-greatest-sweepers-of-all-time.1353473/
Number 21. (A list of only sweepers, not all CBs)
http://www.xtratime.org/forum/348-h...-100-greatest-central-defenders-all-time.html
Number 52.
And when you were asked to substantiate your take big upping Zmuda, you got offended and said "feck off" instead of actually providing any useful information. For instance you could have simply said "Check out Poland vs. X team that game highlights Zmuda's skills".
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Sorry for not having an encyclopaedia in my head with all his games in detail. I only have a football fan's take on the player and know the statement is complete nonsense.
If the same were said about Rio no one would have an issue with my stance and no proof by citing game X or Y would be required.
You seriously have a problem with simply allowing for people's views on things you know feck all about, don't you?
When did you watch Zmuda? You claimed you "lived through that period" so did Uruguay show Polish league games on the Uruguayan TV in the 1970s or what?
You seem to get very sensitive whenever anyone even questions you even though your tone is quite confrontational and unnecessarily argumentative. Chill out mate.
Maybe my favourite comment on the caf of all time.
He played in five World Cups and countless international fixtures. Retard.
He played in 4 world cups
of course. I blame @Downcast for his faulty wiki service earlier stating 21 games in 5 WCs.Same situation though. I never claimed to watch him week in week out but for Poland so the point on Polish league TV rights is moot.
I don't get the chip on the shoulder re "living in their time". There's a lot you work out/ suss from being a contemporary which is irreplaceable and gets lost when trying to reconstruct based on internet sources 30-40 years later.
I don't really see any problem with Platini/Henry either. RE: Henry and Neymar, I think they can be selfless enough to make it work, despite both favouring that inside left channel, Neymar has come on in leaps and bounds with regards to his team-play in the last season or two and Henry assisted just about as much as he scored in his prime.
Same situation though. I never claimed to watch him week in week out but for Poland so the point on Polish league TV rights is moot.
I don't get the chip on the shoulder re "living in their time". There's a lot you work out/ suss from being a contemporary which is irreplaceable and gets lost when trying to reconstruct based on internet sources 30-40 years later.
You're welcome
you are a 'cnut', but our lovable 'cnut'.Have to admit, I was guilty of not knowing many great oldies other than those featured heavily in the Caf drafts.
For a 1st round of an All-time draft, I don't see any intruder.
I've decided to use rsssf to analyze Polish players.
Player: Zmuda
Born: 6- 6-1954
Country: Poland
Caps: 91 (W51-D15-L25 – GF169-GA95 – %64.29)
Goals: 2
Age First Cap: 19 yr 137 d 21-10-1973 vs. Ireland 0-1
Age Last Cap: 32 yr 10 d 16- 6-1986 vs. Brazil 0-4
National Team Career: 12 yr 238 d
http://www.rsssf.com/miscellaneous/zmuda-intl.html
I've decided to use rsssf to analyze Polish players.
Player: Zmuda
Born: 6- 6-1954
Country: Poland
Caps: 91 (W51-D15-L25 – GF169-GA95 – %64.29)
Goals: 2
Age First Cap: 19 yr 137 d 21-10-1973 vs. Ireland 0-1
Age Last Cap: 32 yr 10 d 16- 6-1986 vs. Brazil 0-4
National Team Career: 12 yr 238 d
http://www.rsssf.com/miscellaneous/zmuda-intl.html