LV Monopoly D: R1 - Jayvin vs crappy

With players at peak, who will win the match?

  • Total voters
    28
  • Poll closed .
oneniltothearsenal said:
Except that was never even my point but it seems got twisted and strawmanned so much mixed in with immature posts the original point got lost.

My only point was when someone makes a bold statement , it should be on them to support that statment. Claiming Zmuda was "easily top 5 in the world for a decade" is a bold statment that should be backed up by a bit more than just 'i was alive then' and then a bunch of meaningless insults.
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Go on, tell me which 5 central defenders were better in every season between 1974 and 1982.

You may get the odd season where it may be down to preference but overall you'll see there's nothing particularly bold about it.
 
antohan said:
Go on, tell me which 5 central defenders were better in every season between 1974 and 1982.

You may get the odd season where it may be down to preference but overall you'll see there's nothing particularly bold about it.
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The usual suspects, Beckenbauer, Passarella, Gentile, Scirea etc. Most of them had awards, made team of the tournaments etc to distinguish themselves during a particular year....I just can't find anything so special for Zmuda, in all honesty.

I think this begs for a more generic question, how does one rate a player as having had a stellar year if there's no recognition of any kind anywhere?
 
Edgar Allan Pillow said:
There is a big difference between dismissing someone and not rating him as an all time great. Iso's comment was that Zmuda is not final worthy...which is also fair, considering in an all time pool, there definitely is room to upgrade. For unfamiliar players we make opinions based on what we can see and read. And Zmuda comes across as solid, but nothing really to lavish about. Nobody questioned his fit here either.
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That's true. It would be a bit underwhelming to have Zmuda on Final. Given the available selection.

My previous post about Podolski is actually more to the fact that people use Zmuda 4 WC as a prove of how good he was.

But seems like many rated him in Puyol's level. In that case, Zmuda could be Final worthy, imho. I rate Puyol on Ayala and Vidic level.
 
Edgar Allan Pillow said:
The usual suspects, Beckenbauer, Passarella, Gentile, Scirea etc. Most of them had awards, made team of the tournaments etc to distinguish themselves during a particular year....I just can't find anything so special for Zmuda, in all honesty.

I think this begs for a more generic question, how does one rate a player as having had a stellar year if there's no recognition of any kind anywhere?
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Beckenbauer and Passarella count for one as they don't overlap. Scirea, fair enough although at the latter end. Gentile wasn't a better central defender.

I'll help you out here: Tresor and Bossis make 1 overall (Bossis was more a heir than contemporary for the most part). On the same basis, let's pair up Figueroa and Passarella and Beckenbauer with Forster (albeit a very different defender). Pair Scirea with Krol arguably...

I gave you four right there. Finding a fifth one is a mighty difficult exercise. Hansen would be a good shout, but the guy is clearly there or thereabouts over the entire period.

Awards weren't as commonplace as today and, as discussed, his league and side were comparatively obscure. That doesn't mean someone isn't top class.

Going back to living in their time... in 30 years someone may argue Thiago Silva won nothing and hid away in a comfort zone. "Why didn't Barca/Madrid/Other get him then?". I've no idea which awards he got (probably a fair few given they are 2 a penny these days) but living through it I can tell with no stats he's been Top 5 over the last five years and no one in his right mind would question it or need to look up awards to validate it.
 
Edgar Allan Pillow said:
He does come across as a solid defender though. I see good articles on his performances from 1974 youth to 1982 WC particularly his partnership with Janes (I think) but just surprised he's claimed to be best of a decade.
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Don't twist it. I never said he was the best or a shoe in for a final, simply far more at home than a fair few "regulars".
 
Isotope said:
That's true. It would be a bit underwhelming to have Zmuda on Final. Given the available selection.

My previous post about Podolski is actually more to the fact that people use Zmuda 4 WC as a prove of how good he was.

But seems like many rated him in Puyol's level. In that case, Zmuda could be Final worthy, imho. I rate Puyol on Ayala and Vidic level.
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Horses for courses, I would have no problem with Puyol in a final for Crappy's setup. Sure, there may be a few better options (e.g. Thuram, but not Gentile IMO) but he would perform to the required level.

Would be harder to argue Zmuda as the sweeper than Puyol as the RCB, but it doesn't make one better or worse. Setup, setup, setup. That's what matters.
 
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That should be added to the list of his not so long individual achievement :smirk:.
 
Physiocrat said:
For @antohan

http://pesstatsdatabase.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=6272

TBF it seems a decent reflection (within the obvious limitations of the stats) on the player as you described
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Pretty damn good actually, the playing style description is really good. I thought they only ever copy-pasted the wiki content?

Had completely forgotten about this:

"Of Żmuda's partnership with Pawal Janas in the 1982 World Cup, Brazil coach Tele Santana who managed possibly the greatest side never to lift the World Cup, stated after the torunament, 'If I had in my team a pair such as Janas - Żmuda, all the other nations would only need to concentrate on the fight for second place.'"

Not just praise, but very fecking true.
 
Yeah you read the 69 Mentality correctly, I am now offically backing Vandenache that defenders who played in a relaxed manner should have a lower Mentaltiy.

Believe me I have been re-testing all these Polish stats since December rattling my brain over too many of the numbers (finally could not take it so I dumped everything last night onto the site XD), and I played at least some 20 matches dedicated specifically to getting Zmuda right, for full effect I would play him behind the other CB right beside the keeper with an attack arrow pointing back.
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:lol: The same guy wrote this

And from what I seen/read/heard of him in the 1982 World Cup he played as a defensive sweeper behind the gladiator Janas CB who came out and challenged nearly everyone, while Zmuda simply mopped up if Janas failed.

*Marking I am not sure he specilaized in this, and it might go against his sweeper game, where he dictated where he was going to defend rather than being assigned to a specific player.

He might seem a bit too good on paper, but the lack of real speed is a killer to that impression in PES, besides I do tend to think he is perhaps a bit of an unknown/unappreciated player. When he did play was simply an incredible technical defender, sadly he is the Micheal Owen of defenders, he must have had five seperate operations in multiple countries for all the injuries he picked up, I might actually comapare him a bit to Metzelder always broken for club but has good tournaments for country, but obviously I think there is not only a difference in style but class between the two. He had a great chance to become more globally recognized after the 1982 World Cup when Hellas Verona paid some good money and took a gamble and brought his injury-liable skills in after being promoted, but he baiscally pulled a Jorge Andrade and fell apart in the first few games and, ultimately managed only a handful of appearances for them, a side that would be suprise Italian champions in 84, a season after they gave up on having Zmuda being fit again.
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antohan said:
Pretty damn good actually, the playing style description is really good. I thought they only ever copy-pasted the wiki content?

Had completely forgotten about this:

"Of Żmuda's partnership with Pawal Janas in the 1982 World Cup, Brazil coach Tele Santana who managed possibly the greatest side never to lift the World Cup, stated after the torunament, 'If I had in my team a pair such as Janas - Żmuda, all the other nations would only need to concentrate on the fight for second place.'"

Not just praise, but very fecking true.
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They have loads of quality posts there so I wouldn't shy away from having a quick look there at times. The stats part is of course only applicable to the game they play but it doesn't mean they don't also have some quality posts to go with it at times too.
 
antohan said:
Maybe it is worth looking at for research after all...
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It is. Not for the raw numbers as such, but there are posters who clearly take the time to watch the players and their posts can be excellent sources of information.

antohan said:
Stats (or teamsheets randomly plucked off the internet) can't replace watching a player mate.

This is very simple: I've got no skin in it. I'm not playing, I'm not Polish, I'm not even a massive fan (clearly, else you know you would have a wall of text fawning about him). All I've done is tell people they are wrong when dissing a player they admittedly HAVEN'T SEEN PLAY.
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Its an obvious point but I couldn't agree more. We're all learning here but if there's doubt in my mind regarding a match I tend to be swayed by the manager who has actually watched his players, whether by living through the era or going out of his way to research them.
 
Annahnomoss said:
They have loads of quality posts there so I wouldn't shy away from having a quick look there at times. The stats part is of course only applicable to the game they play but it doesn't mean they don't also have some quality posts to go with it at times too.
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Yeah, pleasantly surprised. I suppose the main issue was the few times I went there was for "backup" on oldies (e.g. Abbadie) there wasn't much to go on.

All I read were geeky discussion on staircases (???) and how combos of attributes played out in the game. E.g. the above "if the guy plays laid back you have to lower his mentality" (which makes the stat pointless and irrelevant to what I understand as mentality).
 
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