[Andersons Dietician]

I'm sure that's true, but you'd think if you're distilling it down to three minutes you could create a genuinely impressive montage and I'm just not sure that's either particularly impressive or vastly different to his performances this season.

In fact, I think it does a pretty good job of summing up Shaw's problems going forward. He has a good burst of pace and can drive a team forward in the middle third, but he severely lacks quality in the final third — particularly with his crossing.

If that’s what you gathered from that and it’s in any way similar to how we play or how he plays now then we’ll never agree on anything regarding Shaw, as in part to it being short I chose that video for the bursts to the line and that it highlighted the space Southampton created for him to go in to.

I just don’t think people see the wider picture here and take in to account the positions of Martial and Pogba and that we have a very unmobile CDM. He can’t go galloping forward all the time, he has to be cautious because one simple mistake and there is no cover on that left hand side and the only thing that could possibly save us is the fact that he has pace.

 

[Skills]

It's funny we all want him to overlap. So who's going to cover for him when he's committed himself up there? Pogba? Martial?

To me, its pretty obviously tactical and he's been asked to pick and choose his moments to drive to the byline. And he just plays it a bit too conservatively because he knows there's nobody there to cover him.

To me this actually highlights how completely useless our entire right side of the pitch is. Our left side of the pitch easily has our two most attacking players playing there with a lot of freedom, Shaw is the one who has to make the sacrifice. On the right we have too many sacrificers and feck all production.

 

[NinjaFletch]

If that’s what you gathered from that and it’s in any way similar to how we play or how he plays now then we’ll never agree on anything regarding Shaw, as in part to it being short I chose that video for the bursts to the line and that it highlighted the space Southampton created for him to go in to.

I just don’t think people see the wider picture here and take in to account the positions of Martial and Pogba and that we have a very unmobile CDM. He can’t go galloping forward all the time, he has to be cautious because one simple mistake and there is no cover on that left hand side and the only thing that could possibly save us is the fact that he has pace.

I didn't say 'that's how we use him' I said 'I think it does a pretty good job of summing up Shaw's problems going forward.'

I don't massively disagree with your second sentence, but I'm not convinced it's purely a tactical issue. We do play with a sitting midfielder (immobile or no) and we do see our right back get forward. Sure, he might not have the freedom of say City's fullbacks to get forward, but he does get forward quite a lot (in those pictures earlier in the thread he would already be out of position if we lost possession and were broken upon). I just don't think he makes very good decisions in the final third and, even when he does make the correct decision, his delivery is often poor.

 

[Mcking]

It's funny we all want him to overlap. So who's going to cover for him when he's committed himself up there? Pogba? Martial?

To me, its pretty obviously tactical and he's been asked to pick and choose his moments to drive to the byline. And he just plays it a bit too conservatively because he knows there's nobody there to cover him.

I have noticed that Young is regularly castigated for getting caught out of position when in reality, he's actually been caught out because he joined the attack. Then there are also people who castigate Shaw for being reluctant to join the attack. I can't tell if it is the same people, but I get the feeling that some just don't know what they want from fullbacks.
I think our issues has got a lot to do with coaching. Our fullbacks can't attack without being caught out, and even when they attack, there is rarely any space nor easy options to pick out in the box.
Personally though, I prefer fullbacks that bomb forward at every opportunity. The midfielders and CBs are supposed to be covering for them btw.

 

[Skills]

I have noticed that Young is regulary castigated for getting caught out of position when in reality, he's actually been caught out because he joined the attack. Then there are also people who castigate Shaw for being reluctant to join the attack. I can't tell if it is the same people, but I get the feeling that some just don't know what they want from fullbacks.
I think our issues has got a lot to do with coaching. Our fullbacks can't attack without being caught out, and even when they attack, there is rarely any space nor easy options to pick out in box.
Personally though, I prefer fullbacks that bomb forward at every opportunity. The midfielders and CBs are supposed to be covering for them btw.

They want someone who doesn't get caught out of position and can put Beckham like crosses from deep. Not that hard to find I imagine. Let me know when we get one.

 

[Hoof the ball]

If Shaw doesn't sprint into an overload position, yet Alba and Robertson do, is that a tactical issue or a mentality one?

If Shaw routinely requires other teammates to point in the direct they want him to run, is that a tactical issue or a mentality one?

It is atypical. It's not an exception to the rule. He does it consistently and repeatedly, regardless of whether there is sufficient cover behind him or not. It'd be entirely time consuming to go back and get actual screenshots to demonstrate this to be absolutely true, but it is true nonetheless.

He doesn't run channels on the inside of the full-back, and rarely on the outside, and when he does, it isn't at sprinting effort level. Regardless of his quality (or alleged lack of), there's most definitely an instinctive reticence to do it.

Again, let me be clear. What I'm referring to isn't the necessity to overlap on every single situation, regardless of defensive cover. It is the consistent lack of aggressive wide play in situations that require it when the occasion allows for it. He's simply not as aggressive in this respect, even in comparison to Young, who lacks from final quality and not aggressive running.

 

[reddaz71]

Truthfully, when you consider the left backs we've had down the years ie Irwin, Evra, Shaw is bang average yet he will be there for the next 5 years in that position, sign of the times.

 

[Josh 76]

In an ideal world we could do with a new back four. But that is not happening in the real world. Luke Shaw is the only one that I feel comfortable with in the defence.
There are other postions in the team that need addressing before we even mention the left back.

 

[Mcking]

If Shaw doesn't sprint into an overload position, yet Alba and Robertson do, is that a tactical issue or a mentality one?

If Shaw routinely requires other teammates to point in the direct they want him to run, is that a tactical issue or a mentality one?

It is atypical. It's not an exception to the rule. He does it consistently and repeatedly, regardless of whether there is sufficient cover behind him or not. It'd be entirely time consuming to go back and get actual screenshots to demonstrate this to be absolutely true, but it is true nonetheless.

He doesn't run channels on the inside of the full-back, and rarely on the outside, and when he does, it isn't at sprinting effort level. Regardless of his quality (or alleged lack of), there's most definitely an instinctive reticence to do it.

Again, let me be clear. What I'm referring to isn't the necessity to overlap on every single situation, regardless of defensive cover. It is the consistent lack of aggressive wide play in situations that require it when the occasion allows for it. He's simply not as aggressive in this respect, even in comparison to Young, who lacks from final quality and not aggressive running.

I agree completely with everything. Tbh, I don't mind my FB getting caught out of position if he is helping out on the other side.

 

[Mcking]

Truthfully, when you consider the left backs we've had down the years ie Irwin, Evra, Shaw is bang average yet he will be there for the next 5 years in that position, sign of the times.

You could say the same for Ronaldo, Rooney, RVP, Giggs, Martial, Rashford. Sign of the times indeed.

 

[Holocene]

It's funny we all want him to overlap. So who's going to cover for him when he's committed himself up there? Pogba? Martial?

To me, its pretty obviously tactical and he's been asked to pick and choose his moments to drive to the byline. And he just plays it a bit too conservatively because he knows there's nobody there to cover him.

To me this actually highlights how completely useless our entire right side of the pitch is. Our left side of the pitch easily has our two most attacking players playing there with a lot of freedom, Shaw is the one who has to make the sacrifice. On the right we have too many sacrificers and feck all production.

You've made a really good point. It certainly does look tactical.

I would like to see Shaw overlap more and stretch the team. Especially when Martial is being marked heavily (just like he was in the first half against PSG).

Use Matic to cover the left-hand side when Shaw overlaps in the event that we lose possession and Shaw is caught out. The image is a crude representation of that, but you get the idea:

 

[Josh 76]

You could say the same for Ronaldo, Rooney, RVP, Giggs, Martial, Rashford. Sign of the times indeed.

 

[Hoof the ball]

You've made a really good point. It certainly does look tactical.

I would like to see Shaw overlap more and stretch the team. Especially when Martial is being marked heavily (just like he was in the first half against PSG).

Use Matic to cover the left-hand side when Shaw overlaps in the event that we lose possession and Shaw is caught out. The image is a crude representation of that, but you get the idea:

What normally happens with teams who have overlapping full-backs is that (in the example of a back four above) Young would form a back three with Bailly and Lindelof when in defensive transition and they would all shift across to cover Shaw's absence. This prevents Matic from being pulled out of central and counter-attacked through the middle.

Same thing with Barca now. Alba overlaps, Lenglet, Pique and Roberto form a back three and shift over, with the midfielders ahead maintaining their positions. Usually if an overlap is happening it's likely that the cb's are pushed almost into the oppositions half, so, spaces are reduced for the opposition to hit on the break anyway.

 

[SteveW]

I think he's been good this season. Crossing could improve but he's been very solid defensively and has kept the ball pretty well. He gets a lot of undeserved criticism on here imo.

 

[el3mel]

All honestly saying he's not overlapping due to tactical reasons is a funny excuse. If that was the case why he's even playing that very high up the pitch if Ole doesn't want him attacking and wants him to close the flank ? The excuses for him are getting funnier by time.

He's not overlapping because his awareness is non existent and doesn't have enough football intelligence to pick out when to move in space.

 

[haram]

It’s been there to see for a while. We need better.

 

[Dante]

Young doesn't overlap at leftback. Nor did Dalot.

When you've got Martial and Pogba ahead of you, that's never going to be your role.

A left-wingback + left-attacking-midfielder + left-wide-forward would be overkill on the same flank. Shaw is a leftback and not being asked to do anything different.

If you look at the number of touches and passes he makes, it's clear that his job is to be a ball carrier and an out-ball. It's not as an overlapper or pseudo-winger.

It's an old fashioned understanding of football to believe that there's only one way to play in any particular position.

 

[Canagel]

Consistently average. Too slow, crosses not beating first man, no dribbling. Remember that run he made when his leg got broken?
He doesn't run enough to the byline and when he does the final ball is quite terrible.

He's just another Valencia in disguise .

 

[Dante]

The underrating of Shaw is ridiculous.

Remeber the Mourinho days? When Martial and Pogba had defensive responsibilities? When they didn't have the freedom to get into the box or drift wide?

Shaw sitting back on the left is the reason they have that freedom now. If we had a player like Leighton Baines at LB, the left flank would be carnage.

The dynamic is to allow Martial to come central when Pogba goes wide, and vice versa. Shaw is their insurance policy.

 

[Canagel]

Young doesn't overlap at leftback. Nor did Dalot.

When you've got Martial and Pogba ahead of you, that's never going to be your role.

A left-wingback + left-attacking-midfielder + left-wide-forward would be overkill on the same flank. Shaw is a leftback and not being asked to do anything different.

If you look at the number of touches and passes he makes, it's clear that his job is to be a ball carrier and an out-ball. It's not as an overlapper or pseudo-winger.

It's an old fashioned understanding of football to believe that there's only one way to play in any particular position.

Our fullbacks are the ones that must provide the width since we don't have wingers. And Dalot is miles ahead of Shaw in attacking production.
This game alone he put more dangerous balls than Shaw did the whole season.

 

[Dante]

Our fullbacks are the ones that must provide the width since we don't have wingers. And Dalot is miles ahead of Shaw in attacking production.
This game alone he put more dangerous balls than Shaw did the whole season.

That's on the right. We've had a lopsided formation for years. Even Fergie did it. How have you not noticed before?!?!

 

[Stepney73]

He looks too top heavy for a modern day LB and I think he will start to decline in his mid 20s just like Rooney.

Needs shipping out within the next 2 years but knowing Utd under the glazers he will still be here when he's 30.


Sorry but nowhere near the level needed.

 

[Canagel]

That's on the right. We've had a lopsided formation for years. Even Fergie did it. How have you not noticed before?!?!

There's nothing stopping Shaw from getting forward and putting in crosses like this on the left. Numerous times the space is there to run into and he doesn't do it. It's nothing to do with our shape since both our wingers come inside anyway

 

[el3mel]

https://www.whoscored.com/Matches/1...18-2019-Manchester-United-Paris-Saint-Germain

Shaw defensive stats from the game :

0 clearances.

0 Interceptions

0 blocked shots

1 Tackles attempted, didn't win it so 0 tackles won.

"Oh he's not overlapping due to tactical reasons".

 

[Dante]

There's nothing stopping Shaw from getting forward and putting in crosses like this on the left. Numerous times the space is there to run into and he doesn't do it. It's nothing to do with our shape since both our wingers come inside anyway

Shaw plays behind two players, Martial and Pogba, who have with no defensive responsibilities. It's the latter two's responsibility to work together attacking in the final third on the left... unless Martial and Pogba are willing to track back like Lingard and Herrera do, then you can start talking about the the lb doing the same things as the rb.

 

[Dante]

https://www.whoscored.com/Matches/1...18-2019-Manchester-United-Paris-Saint-Germain

Shaw defensive stats from the game :

0 clearances.

0 Interceptions

0 blocked shots

1 Tackles attempted, didn't win it so 0 tackles won.

"Oh he's not overlapping due to tactical reasons".

Check out his passing stats.

Some fullbacks are fullbacks with winger responsibilities. Other fullbacks are fullbacks with midfielder responsibilities.

Shaw is the latter. He's vital to our transitions and he gives Martial and Pogba the platform to attack with freedom.

 

[Dante]

Football formations don't have to be symmetrical.

The 1999 side was famously lopsided (compare Giggs to Beckham).

So was the 2008 side. In the final, we played Evra+Ronaldo on the left, with Brown+Hargreaves on the right! Square that circle!

Obviously, the dynamics were different from 2019, but it illustrates that it's perfectly alright to have imbalances. It forces the opponent into attacking/defending more on particular sides so you can take advantage of the space and play to your strengths.

We're a possession based team on the left and a counter-attacking team on the right. Look out for it.

 

[el3mel]

Check out his passing stats.

Some fullbacks are fullbacks with winger responsibilities. Other fullbacks are fullbacks with midfielder responsibilities.

Shaw is the latter. He's vital to our transitions and he gives Martial and Pogba the platform to attack with freedom.

His stats prove absolutely nothing about him sitting at the back to close the flank considering all his defensive stats are 0s.

Also, his position in this post clearly indicates he's not sitting back or in the midfield.

Here's a visual of something that is atypical of Shaw in terms of his lack of attacking aggression.


1. Sanchez has the ball on the left of 18 yard. Shaw's current position is behind him. If that's Alba or Robertson, he's running outside of Sanchez.

2. After two seconds, Shaw hasn't read the situation and made the overlap for Sanchez. In fact, he's actually stepped backwards and outwards, but again, the opportunity is very much there for the overlap.

3. In the end, Sanchez gives up on anticipating Shaw's overlap and plays a square ball which leads to a cross from Shaw which is subsequently cleared rather easily.

I want to be able to say that the above is untypical, however, this is something I've seen from him very often. It's less of an issue with Martial playing because Martial holds the width and Shaw isn't expected to overlap, although, there's no reason why a full-back can't underlap in the channel, since this is quite common in modern football.

When Coutinho drifts in, like Sanchez, Alba guarantees to make the above overlap. Likewise, when Mane drifts centrally, Robertson is guaranteed to make that overlap. Arguably, both the aforementioned not only make the run, but they sprint into the overlap to make it all the more effective.

Shaw is guilty of two things, usually.

1. Not overlapping with aggressiveness when the situation clearly presents itself.
2. Rarely sprinting off-the-ball to make the overlap effective as possible when it does occur.

Shaw isn't slow. In-fact, when he sprints he's incredibly quick, which is all the more baffling when you consider that you don't see many offensive sprints from him, compared to defensive ones.

He didn't overlap in this position not because he's sitting back. He's very high up in the pitch already! And he has been very high up in almost all our games and in several positions like this. He didn't overlap in such position because he didn't have any awareness of the position, as simple as that.

If he's instructed to sit back and not overlap he would have never been here to start with.

 

[Dante]

His stats prove absolutely nothing about him sitting at the back to close the flank considering all his defensive stats are 0s.

Also, his position in this post clearly indicates he's not sitting back or in the midfield.



He didn't overlap in this position not because he's sitting back. He's very high up in the pitch already! And he has been very high up in almost all our games and in several positions like this. He didn't overlap in such position because he didn't have any awareness of the position, as simple as that.

If he's instructed to sit back and not overlap he would have never been here to start with.

You don't have to make a tackle to defend. These are PSG's attacking zones.

Good positioning and intelligent marking are enough. Shaw shut the left side down whilst making the second most passes in the team after Matic (more than Pogba and Herrera).

He's a leftback-come-midfielder who defends his flank with little help from his LWF or LAM. But he gives them the platform to attack, as evidenced by the fact that our left side is one of the most dangerous in the league.

 

[el3mel]

You don't have to make a tackle to defend. These are PSG's attacking zones.

Good positioning and intelligent marking is enough. Shaw shut the left side down.

"Shuts the left side down". That's how PSG got their corner from which they scored their first goal :

The lad simply has a big problem understanding his surroundings as a fullback.

There's absolutely no way any fullback won't anticipate a pass is going to be made to the winger and instead leave him completely open to get the pass and cross.

The real madness is this picture was repeated 2 times in a row for PSG and he didn't anticipate it both times, and the second one ended in the corner they scored.

If he's sitting back, then he's shite at it.

 

[Dante]

"Shuts the left side down". That's how PSG got their corner from which they scored their first goal :

The lad simply has a big problem understanding his surroundings as a fullback.

There's absolutely no way any fullback won't anticipate a pass is going to be made to the winger and instead leave him completely open to get the pass and cross.

The real madness is this picture was repeated 2 times in a row for PSG and he didn't anticipate it both times, and the second one ended in the corner they scored.

If he's sitting back, then he's shite at it.

His positioning is fine there. That's how close a fullback is supposed to be to the CB.

 

[el3mel]

His positioning is fine there. That's how close a fullback is supposed to be to the CB.

The positioning isn't the problem.

It's that he didn't anticipate a pass is going to be made to the free winger in such position and started to move after the pass was already made and the winger became in a perfect position to cross and earn a corner.

By the time their midfielder got the ball if Shaw has any kind of understanding to his surroundings he would have anticipated the pass and would have started running to cover his flank as they were going to attack it considering our 2 defenders were covering their striker already so the midfielder has no other option to pass to except the free winger, but nope, he moved pretty late and he did it 2 times in a row.

Rojo used to do the same mistake whenever he played as a left back and it was understandable because that's not his position but that's not the same for Shaw.

 

[Dante]

The positioning isn't the problem.

It's that he didn't anticipate a pass is going to be made to the free winger in such position and started to move after the pass was already made and the winger became in a perfect position to cross and earn a corner.

By the time their midfielder got the ball if Shaw has any kind of understanding to his surroundings he would have anticipated the pass and would have started running to cover his flank as they were going to attack it considering our 2 defenders were covering their striker already so the midfielder has no other option to pass to except the free winger, but nope, he moved pretty late and he did it 2 times in a row.

Rojo used to do the same mistake whenever he played as a left back and it was understandable because that's not his position but that's not the same for Shaw.

You don't understand defending well enough to make those sort of definitive statements, imo.

 

[el3mel]

You don't understand defending well enough to make those sort of definitive statements, imo.

Ok.

 

[Sauldogba]

Its like this guy is allergic to overlapping.
I dont know whether its because hes lazy or what but his lack of over lapping is shocking.
Its one of the basic fundimentals of being a right back.

 

[LeftyBlaster]

Check out his passing stats.

Some fullbacks are fullbacks with winger responsibilities. Other fullbacks are fullbacks with midfielder responsibilities.

Shaw is the latter. He's vital to our transitions and he gives Martial and Pogba the platform to attack with freedom.

Correct

 

[Ekeke]

You've made a really good point. It certainly does look tactical.

I would like to see Shaw overlap more and stretch the team. Especially when Martial is being marked heavily (just like he was in the first half against PSG).

Use Matic to cover the left-hand side when Shaw overlaps in the event that we lose possession and Shaw is caught out. The image is a crude representation of that, but you get the idea:

Matic is already exposed when teams counter attack us when he's playing central, let alone if he's standing in left midfield. Next we'd need to tell Ander to stop contributing in attack because now he needs to cover Matic

 

[Andersons Dietician]

I didn't say 'that's how we use him' I said 'I think it does a pretty good job of summing up Shaw's problems going forward.'

I don't massively disagree with your second sentence, but I'm not convinced it's purely a tactical issue. We do play with a sitting midfielder (immobile or no) and we do see our right back get forward. Sure, he might not have the freedom of say City's fullbacks to get forward, but he does get forward quite a lot (in those pictures earlier in the thread he would already be out of position if we lost possession and were broken upon). I just don't think he makes very good decisions in the final third and, even when he does make the correct decision, his delivery is often poor.

I also don’t nesceraly disagree with he isn’t a great decision maker in the final 3rd or crosser and the thing that annoys me the most is this not moving on to the ball to put a cross in.

I mean he’s never been a crosser as such, he was more get down the line or in the box and put a ball along the deck type mostly because there was the time space and protection to do such things. Now on our left he is the protection and personally I’d love for him to be going beyond whipping balls across or just going at people in the box because he has the skill, speed and power to do that, it’s just with Pogba he really can’t and I’d rather Pogba have more freedom and Shaw sit back than Shaw bombing all the time.

This new narrative that he doesn’t overlap or that he only does it when told is to me wrong as he does overlap but he picks his times and normally it depends where Pogba and Martial are in play, and Martial I love but he is the worst offender for ignoring Shaw’s runs in behind him or even inside him and this pointing telling him to attack to me is more of a signal of Pogbas intent to allow Shaw to commit and he’ll cover the left.

Everyone is obviously going to have different opinions on this but sometimes I read this thread and it seems to me people don’t really think big picture, they pick one thing and that is it and don’t consider why that is other than a fault. There are many things Shaw can and hopefully will do better but if he was right footed or Herrera played on the left and Pogba right I’d wager there would be a vastly different mood towards Shaw.

Just my two cence anyway.

 

[Adam-Utd]

"Shuts the left side down". That's how PSG got their corner from which they scored their first goal :

The lad simply has a big problem understanding his surroundings as a fullback.

There's absolutely no way any fullback won't anticipate a pass is going to be made to the winger and instead leave him completely open to get the pass and cross.

The real madness is this picture was repeated 2 times in a row for PSG and he didn't anticipate it both times, and the second one ended in the corner they scored.

If he's sitting back, then he's shite at it.

That's on Sanchez. If shaw goes out and stands on Alves then he leaves a gaping hole in our defence.

Look at Mata on the opposite side, he's covering his fullback. Doing his job. Sanchez is cheating and standing in midfield. Shaw has draxler to deal with, but then Alves on his outside. You can't do 2 jobs at once.

 

[Grande]

Shaw has this season convinced me of three things:

1. He has clear shortcomings, yet still has the potential to play left back at the highest level.

2. He is a very slow learner, yet he is able to learn.

3. When he at times has seemed complacent, it’s more due to a lack of confience than to a surplus of confidence, and he’ll improve if his confidence keeps building.