Yeah but that's why I find Nani's and maybe Ando's (though he clearly does have issues) treatment harsh. He has a below par game and he's out the team. Welbeck, clev even valencia to an extent can offer very little but stay in the team because they take the simple option, nani takes a chance to do something that might lead to an opportunity and if it doesn't come off he gets a lot of stick. Clearly there needs to be a balance but sometimes I think we can go for the cautious players too much.
Luis Nani | 2013/14 Performances
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Yeah but that's why I find Nani's and maybe Ando's (though he clearly does have issues) treatment harsh. He has a below par game and he's out the team. Welbeck, clev even valencia to an extent can offer very little but stay in the team because they take the simple option, nani takes a chance to do something that might lead to an opportunity and if it doesn't come off he gets a lot of stick. Clearly there needs to be a balance but sometimes I think we can go for the cautious players too much.
After the praise Moyes gave him I'd expect to see actions back up his words. But bringing him on so late was a bad decision IMO. A player like him needs time to work. He can't be a super sub for a few mins.
Our left wing was virtually ineffective for most of the game. If we had him causing a threat from that side in addition to the right, we may have unlocked the door. It's just a case of too little, too late.
Our left wing was virtually ineffective for most of the game. If we had him causing a threat from that side in addition to the right, we may have unlocked the door. It's just a case of too little, too late.
Rafael-------------------------------
Nani---Carrick--Anderson--Januzaj
--------------Rooney---------------
---------------RvP------------------
Please Dave, just play this. 5 consecutive games when Rafael, RvP and Carrick are fit, just see what happens.
Nani---Carrick--Anderson--Januzaj
--------------Rooney---------------
---------------RvP------------------
Please Dave, just play this. 5 consecutive games when Rafael, RvP and Carrick are fit, just see what happens.
If it means RVP up top then it's a no brainier
Well he did sort of play that and then Nani had a poor game against stoke and we've not seen it since and that's what I find harsh. Welbeck/Valencia can put in ineffective displays but seem to have more leeway to get away with it because they keep it simple and so will likely keep the ball a bit better/work slightly harder defensively. Yet nani is also much more willing to make something happen than they are.
Tbf Valencia has started getting in to some sort of form so understandable he's been playing, just think nani doesn't get anywhere near the leeway those to do and maybe ando doesn't get the same way clev does for the same reason, although think ando is a lot less consistent compared to clev than nani compared to say valencia.
Totally agree, it seems like defensive solidarity is a base level you can always rely on from the safe picks. A tad unfair Nani isn't afforded the same when he's very capable defensively himself.
Well that's the thing, compared to say welbeck, valencia, milner maybe Young, nani isn't as good as them defensively, but can't think of another player amongst the top teams who works significantly harder than him, I'd definitely have nani towards the top of a list from the supporting attackers at the top clubs who do their share defensively. That's why I find it quite frustrating to see us try to nullify an oppositions flank so often.
I'd rather us play our wingers based on their attacking threat. Moyes said yesterday how highly he rates Nani, reckons he's a outstanding player. Showed how much he rates him by benching him.
Disagree. Nani is capable of 'make something happen', but it's been ages since I've seen him do so. Even against Bayer, where I can say we were on top throughout, Nani's performance was not that great. Numerous time Evra was operating in more advanced positions with Nani meandering around in the middle. Irrespective of the final ball, Valencia has been the route we take most to move forward with Evra (and not Nani) on the left. Nani when curring in just overlaps Kagawa.
To be honest, I don't really trust Nani. You never know which Nani would show up and he's far too prone to brainfarts.
He needs a run of games. Don't know if that has been mentioned yet...
I agree his performances haven't been brilliant, but again when he is played so inconsistently he never has a chance to build any momentum. In Rooney, RVP, Nani and Kagawa we have a very talented and fluid front four - we just need to start playing them, and playing them in a non rigid system.
I agree his performances haven't been brilliant, but again when he is played so inconsistently he never has a chance to build any momentum. In Rooney, RVP, Nani and Kagawa we have a very talented and fluid front four - we just need to start playing them, and playing them in a non rigid system.
I disagree. Nani has made something happen in every single game he's played this season. Nani's worst game of the season (Stoke) still saw him create the equaliser. That's the difference between Nani and Valencia - the latter isn't capable of producing when his delivery is consistently poor. Nani's performances this season have wrongly been downplayed - someone said his best game was against Bayer Leverkusen when he had a much, much better game against West Brom (in the top five best winger performances in the league this season). I have no bias when it comes to this discussion anyway - Valencia is in good form, but Nani has done more than enough to play more games.
The thing with Nani is that him and Adnan are probably our only wingers who don't shirk the responsibility to create. They're the only two who play as if they know that's what they're there to do. Sometimes it doesn't come off, but he's generally very positive in his play, isn't always happy to just turn and pass back to the fullback and tries to get into the oppositions box and make something happen. Having him there also means that we play on the front foot and give the opposition something to think about rather than us setting up to limit them.
Firstly, You do the Top 3 MOTM threads right? Can you list out how many votes does Nani has as against Valencia as a Top 3 performer. Even in the Bayer MOTM htread, Valencia got more votes than Nani. The only good game Nani had for us was the West Brom game and MOTM thread shows this clearly.
Secondly, in the matches you watched, what is the most used outlet for us to go forward? via Valencia or via Nani?
Nani downplayed...no. When he gives a above par peformance in the middle of a string of below average ones it is being overhyped here. I don't disagree that he has the talent, but I've never seen it being displayed in consistent manner in recent years.
I think you can check in the Player of the Month thread, but that doesn't say much. Van Persie, for example, received few votes against Arsenal (one of his best performances this season). I never said Nani had a better game than Valencia against Bayer Leverkusen. Valencia was clearly better and that had to do with our game-plan. Can was played out of position, found himself high up the field on numerous occasions, and we took advantage of this flaw. I disagree with Nani only having one good game, that's not true at all, and it wasn't even a good game against West Brom - it was a great game for him (check at the end for some of his performances this season). He completed every take on and produced four quality balls.
This is not a good question at all because Manchester United attack more down the right, than they do down the left. The only exception to this rule this season was against Fulham. We used both "wingers" - and it was more balanced than every. When Valencia plays down the right, we attack down the right. When Nani plays down the right, we attack down the right. When both play, we attack down Valencia's side. This is highlighted in the stats against Leverkusen: 44% of our attacks were down Valencia's side, while 33% of our attacks were down the Nani's side.
Finally, I never said Nani was downplayed. I said his performances have been downplayed, as you are portraying. Someone tweeting that his best performance was against Bayer Leverkusen shows two things: that he's not been great this season and that people have short-term memories and forgotten about his performance against West Brom.
Here's some of his performances this season:
Can't watch the videos in office, but will do so once I'm back home. Certain other points I differ in opinion from your post are:
We are not talking about personal best, but rather a team players comparitive best. Arsenal may be RvP best peformance of the season, but most here think 3 other players were still better overall. Same with Nani. They may be his personal best, but others were still better overall. I don't agree that a player had a very good game (overall), yet still does not make it to most's top 3.
United prefers right wing over left is wrong. When Giggs was at his prime we did not shirk from the left. Even when Ronaldo used to switch wings, he had no problems getting the ball on the left. I think the game tends to drift to better players. Maybe predictable, but when ball is in our area, you can be sure that Valencia would be there just ahead of the right halfway line to receive the cross. Noone on the left to receive crosses. So play drifts over there more. Same when hovering at opponents box, you can always be sure that Valencia or Smalling/Rafael will be there by the touchline. Evra will be at the left touchline, but without support as Kagawa/Nani will be cutting in an already overcrowded area.
We are not talking about personal best, but rather a team players comparitive best. Arsenal may be RvP best peformance of the season, but most here think 3 other players were still better overall. Same with Nani. They may be his personal best, but others were still better overall. I don't agree that a player had a very good game (overall), yet still does not make it to most's top 3.
United prefers right wing over left is wrong. When Giggs was at his prime we did not shirk from the left. Even when Ronaldo used to switch wings, he had no problems getting the ball on the left. I think the game tends to drift to better players. Maybe predictable, but when ball is in our area, you can be sure that Valencia would be there just ahead of the right halfway line to receive the cross. Noone on the left to receive crosses. So play drifts over there more. Same when hovering at opponents box, you can always be sure that Valencia or Smalling/Rafael will be there by the touchline. Evra will be at the left touchline, but without support as Kagawa/Nani will be cutting in an already overcrowded area.
And you think this is because United just randomly prefer attacking down the right?! When Rooney comes to the left he has no trouble finding the ball.
The main reason we utilise Valencia so much is because he provides constant width and is always there as an out ball.
It really would help if you could tone down on the condescending tone and debate properly, instead of ignoring facts, making your post seems childish. Yet again, you have shown no progress whatsoever from any of the previous debates. Why don't you read posts thoroughly? The least you could do is back up your arrogant tone with facts, rather than it backfiring on you. I would respect it a lot if you showed a bit more respect.
Manchester United attack down the right, that isn't a dig at Valencia or Nani. When Nani starts on the right, we attack down the right, same applies to Valencia. When Nani started on the right for us against Stoke, 40% of our attacks came down his side. This statistic also includes Januzaj's contribution down the right in that game. When Nani started against West Brom, 45% our attacks came down the right. When they both start, we use Valencia because Nani offers us what Moyes wants - which is a winger making diagonal runs to the centre. That's the way Moyes wants his team to play like at the moment. It was the same against Shakhtar - only that Welbeck was the one creating numerical advantage. It was the same against Tottenham. Moyes wants his right winger to provide width, while his left winger drifts infield. It has nothing to do with Valencia being better than Nani at offering width - you make it seem like a hard task, when in fact all you have to do is stay wide... I also find it laughable that you ignore Moyes playing Nani, Januzaj, Kagawa, and Welbeck on the left due to their diverse skill-set.
Will reply to your post later on, Absolute Fruit Cake.
Pull yourself together MoneyMay and stop having a meltdown. It's a football forum, you need to chill out.
The last two 'debates' were you saying a bunch of wrong stuff, getting called out on it and then backtracking and accusing people of misrepresenting your posts. So you aren't this great debater either mate.
The ball goes down the right flank because that is where the width is. When Rooney plays in the hole his trademark pass is to spray it out wide to whoever is in space - which is typically Valencia. Kagawa/Welbeck/Januzaj are rarely in the space that Valencia is, because he keeps so wide. If Valencia was left footed then the ball would be played down the left.
We preffered attacking down the right in every single game since Community Shield, and Valencia hasn't started any game you know. Nani, Giggs, Valencia, Zaha, whoever, we always prefered right side this year. When Januzaj was star man against Sunderland, we still had 46% of our attacks coming down the right side(Nani played there), and only 30% from the Januzaj's left. Even against Liverpool away in premierleague when we had Giggs and Jones playing on the right side(and we all know how Giggs likes to drift inside), and we had "natural" left winger on the pitch in Young, 44% of our attacks were from right side(remember Jones' crosses?), and 36% from the left. Even against Real Madrid at Old Trafford with Fergie, we preffered attacking down the right side, with Giggs playing there.
Valencia can keep the ball very well, that's one of his best attributes, but so can Evra, and even though Evra plays almost every game, and even when Valencia isn't playing, we still prefer attacking down the right side.
I know Valencia doesn't play every game, but the same tactic applies to Nani when he plays on the right as opposed to the left. He is a right footed player and when he is on the left he has a huge tendency to cut inside i.e. think of Leverkusen in midweek where he roamed far more than Valencia. When he is on the right flank you get less of that.
So if its Nani on the left cutting in, or Valencia on the right staying wide, then the space is out on the right. Nani on the right is a different prospect to that. In the post you quoted I didn't mention Nani because he offers good width as well. Welbeck/Kagawa/Januzaj/Young are the four main left wingers and all four of them like to cut in, whereas Valencia (and Nani on the right) will hold their width.
What are you talking about MoneyMay? We know that we attack down the right, I said the exact same thing. All I'm trying to do is provide a reason for why that tends to happen.
All I asked for, and what I'm still asking for, is respect. Typical response from you. No one called me out in any of the debates we had. In fact, if you revisit them, you will find you were the one with the fabrications and the twisting what I said trick. But of course, you're not going to apologise for twisting what I said because it's a football forum and all that, right.
Your final paragraph is what I have mentioned. Another tedious point because I have already mentioned that Moyes has his left winger plays more as an interior. That's a player who drifts in centrally to create a numerical advantage or numerical equivalence, so us attacking down Valencia's side is a tactic that is present because he's the one who offers the width. It has nothing to do with him being good at what he does. If Valencia was left footed, the ball wouldn't be played to the left because he lacks a diverse skill-set. Our system has the right winger providing width while the left winger drifts in, it has nothing to do with Valencia at all.
You're insane, genuinely nuts. You keep accusing people of misinterpreting your posts when it doesn't happen, as if its some big conspiracy.
You shouldn't be so arrogant either, it doesn't suit you when we're only talking about football.
I disagree wholly with what you say. Moyes using a left winger who cuts in and a right winger who stays wide is entirely affected by the players he has. Kagawa/Welbeck/Young play on the left and all of those players like to cut in, its how they play. Valencia stays wide because that is how he has played his entire career.
So this part is plain wrong IMO,
"What you fail to understand is that our system has the right winger providing width while the left winger drifts in, it has nothing to do with Valencia at all."
Our system has a left winger drifting in because our left wingers like to do that, if we had a young Giggs then you can bet we would play with width on the left. Our right winger provides width because our right wingers play like that, so it is clearly affected by Valencia.
You're insane, genuinely nuts. You keep accusing people of misinterpreting your posts when it doesn't happen, as if its some big conspiracy.
You shouldn't be so arrogant either, it doesn't suit you when we're only talking about football.
I disagree wholly with what you say. Moyes using a left winger who cuts in and a right winger who stays wide is entirely affected by the players he has. Kagawa/Welbeck/Young play on the left and all of those players like to cut in, its how they play. Valencia stays wide because that is how he has played his entire career.
So this part is plain wrong IMO,
"What you fail to understand is that our system has the right winger providing width while the left winger drifts in, it has nothing to do with Valencia at all."
Our system has a left winger drifting in because our left wingers like to do that, if we had a young Giggs then you can bet we would play with width on the left. Our right winger provides width because our right wingers play like that, so it is clearly affected by Valencia.
No, not really, but continue with the personal insults. The exaggeration on your part is predictable - I've accused you and probably another member of not reading my posts properly and coming to conclusions that show this. Take a look here. And I can link you to the Rooney debate where you did the exact same thing. You've still not apologised - you're brushing it off as though it isn't reality. Look at what I said and compare it to what you think I said. One thing I'm not is arrogant, I don't force my opinion on any one - the last bit of my last post is what it looks like, you still don't seem to understand and that's with all due respect. It's not me being arrogant, it's me offering my perception. I want to have debates with you, but it's hard to when you're constantly doing the same thing.
Moyes can't use Valencia as a left winger, as I've already stated, because he doesn't have a diverse skill-set. So how can I be wrong when I said what you just said? Moyes' system has a right winger offering width, regardless of name, and a left winger playing as an interior. You can't disagree with me if I said the same thing as you right before you said it.
The left winger drifts in because they have been awarded permission by Moyes to do so. Kagawa likes to drift in, but ultimately it's the manager's decision to have him play like that. After all, it is Moyes' team, and not Kagawa's, Nani's, or Januzaj's. They don't decide to move in centrally... Look at the Everton side last season, for example. It's due to their diverse skill-set that Moyes can have them deployed in this manner. The Giggs example doesn't connect with this because Giggs is different in style to the three aforementioned names, as is Young. They're more like Valencia on the wings, and it's why Moyes has continually used Januzaj, Kagawa, and Nani for his system. That's been my point from the start.
"Another tedious point" "What you fail to understand" etc etc. You are very condescending and arrogant in your posts, which I find absolutely bizarre as you don't come across as an expert on football. I've read those threads and have the same opinion.
Anyway moving on. We haven't said the same thing.. I disagreed with you in the post you just quoted. You said that playing with width on the right,
It does. Moyes plays with width on the right because both Nani and Valencia offer width on the right. He isn't going to play Valencia as an inside forward because that isn't how he plays. Moyes is using the players he has and creating a system around that.
Kagawa, Young and Welbeck drift in because that is how they play. All three of them drifted inside last season under Ferguson, so it isn't because of Moyes that they play that way. Therefore I don't agree with you and we aren't saying the same thing - my view is that the width on the right does have something to with Valencia.
Tedious isn't arrogance. Tedious means I've seen you do the same thing constantly and that's how it feels. Arrogance would be for me to insult you and tell you that you're 100% wrong, which I haven't done. I also explained what I meant by the failing to understand part, it's not arrogance, it's just a perception. I apologise if it came across that way.
I think we're saying similar things. We both agree that we attack down the right because Valencia offers us width. We differ slightly on roles of players down the left, but that's about it really. It largely comes down to manager's tactics without doubt. And the thing that confirms this is Kagawa's performance against Arsenal and Kagawa's performance against every other team. He drifted more centrally in other games, compared to the Arsenal game, which tells you it's down to managers. I can't do much to change your opinion
That's why I used example of other games where Giggs and Zaha played on the right.
Against Liverpool away, Young stayed more wide than Giggs, he even had almost identical number of touches like Giggs in that game even though he was substituted 10 minutes earlier(which proves he was involved), but we still attacked more down the right.
I don't think that's down to Nani or Valencia, it's simply the fact that our players "like" to pass it more to right wing.
These are few things why I think that we are using right side more than left:
- Carrick is always more involved than his partner, and he is right footed, playing on right side of central midfield, and it's easier to him to pass it on the right, passing it wide is certainly easier for him than passing it through the crowd
- our central defenders are all right footed, and they all like to pass it on the right more, despite that Evra is much better carrier of the ball than Smalling who usually played this season on RB, since it's lot easier for right footed player to pass it on the right, than on the left. Our ball playing defenders are Rio and Evans, and Rio is mainly playing on the right side, where Evans when played with Vidic also plays there
- Rooney's diagonals are great, but we rarely see him spraying them on left wing, even when we have Young on the left, it was the same with Scholes too, and I think that's also down to that that they bought are righis right footed.
Brilliant. (honestly)
I've been waiting and hoping for exactly this.... if not for 5 at least for one or two. (No Smalling either, please Moysie)
It's very unlikely that Moyes will try that formation though. Just far too much flair in there for him to cope with.
I don't think Nani was great against Bayer Lev either but it was pretty good, I'd say that personally it feels that for Nani to have a good game he needs to do a lot more than Valencia does. Nani could spend all game doing much harder or much adventurous stuff such as taking people on, or drifting inside looking to link up with Kagawa etc, but if even if a number of openings are created from it, he doesn't get a goal or an assist then it seems a lot of people count that as him being inconsistent. Where as Valencia can spend all game only taking people on when there's clear space and so more often than not, not making the most off his opportunites but as long as he keeps it simple and doesn't give the ball away that's ok.
Of course a fair few people are giving Valencia stick for this but personally I don't feel it's as harsh as what Nani gets. In truth there's a balance to be had between the two styles and so yes Nani can be frustrating but on the flip side Valencia can be too risk evasive. But for me the other point is that Valencia is often given many more games to get his level up, likewise Welbeck, where as again Nani seems to have been taken off/out the team for similar performances but given a lot less time to find his form. Though tbf Nani has had a fair few injuries over the last season and a bit which have played a big part.
As for out attacks personally would say that a lot of our attacks go down the right because the right flank is where we actually have wingers who's foot is strongest on that side. On the left the options are nani, young, kagawa, welbeck, all of whom if they play on the left want to come inside. So the right flank is generally where the space will always be. When Nani played from the right I'd be fairly confident in expecting that he saw a lot of the ball too. Add to that if you're trying to play cutting inside then in our team with our current players that's quite hard because we have few players capable and confident enough to play through the middle, even Rooney/RVP aren't the best as slipping people in centrally.
As for overlapping with Kagawa, personally I've always thought the few times we've seen those two together that interplay between them is always one that I think is something we generally miss which is a central player and a wide player linking up centrally and for me is something we need to see more off to add to our attack.
I was very disappointed that Moyes made comments about Nani having to play only to bench him for Welbeck the next match. That's just one of those things that hardly make sense. Nani is arguably our only winger who could create something with that quick right side of Tottenham as he doesn't just rely on pace. What Young relies on these days I'm not sure, but if you can take away Welbeck's pace like Walker can, there isn't all that much left. With a it more poise though, Welbeck could have had an assit for Rooney.
Pretty sure he chose Welbeck as a tactical decision purely.
Last season he dealt with Walker really well, and is our only player who can probably match him in terms of pace/strength.
I do think though once Kagawa got changed left the plan went out the window, so Nani should have been brought into the game a LOT earlier than 80 minutes.
Last season he dealt with Walker really well, and is our only player who can probably match him in terms of pace/strength.
I do think though once Kagawa got changed left the plan went out the window, so Nani should have been brought into the game a LOT earlier than 80 minutes.
This really was a bizarre move considering how well Kagawa played in Europe, we may have had a different result if he had left it the same as Kagawa would have brought other players into the game, including Welbeck.
Nani is just as fast, if not faster, than Welbeck, so it would have to be workrate that is the only argument viable. That said, I think Nani's defensive contribution is underrated and his attacking prowess would force Walker to stay back a bit more.
When you see that again, Rooney wasn't in a position to score anyway as he had a defender blocking him. Really Valencia should have been backing up the play and been coming in from the right to give Welbeck another option (as someone like Ronaldo would have done).
But it wasn't working in this game so Moyes changed it.
Nani would have come on earlier but we scored the 2nd and I assume that Moyes thought that we'd have the momentum to score again, however it didn't happen so he made the change.
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