Luis Nani | 2010/11 Performances

Status
Not open for further replies.
cina said:
Yes because it's not like you've ignored 80% of what has been argued against you in this thread and chosen only to quote what you believe you can debate against.

Oh wait...
Click to expand...

I've not ignored 80% of anything. I've responded to comments that I think are interesting and worthy of reply. If we're going to be obligated to respond to everything, even the uninteresting points we feel don't really add anything to the debate not already contributed so far, then we'd be here all night.

On that point, if you don't want my honest opinion as to what you have written, don't ask me why I haven't commented on it.

But even besides all that, all I can see, aside from green and yellow smiley faces (that I'm honestly loathed to respond to in the first place) is just overall criticism of my position.

If you want to say I'm wrong, fine. I'll say you're wrong too. As long as everyone has a reason for that it's okay. I find the reasoning of what other people say, to be a spurious one that I cannot take seriously.

I have quoted and responded directly to many people in this thread. If I ignore elements of what someone says, it's because it is either not interesting or I want to respond more directly to something else.

If it is a crime to snip-quote someone in order to streamline the argument and avoid confusion, I think we're all guilty.
 
RedThaiDevils#7 said:
So Aaron won the Valencia > Nani ?

Or is this a Nani is the best winger in the country thread ?
Click to expand...

The long and the short of it is that my opinion is clearly 'wrong' as they agree with each other that it is. And if others agree with themselves, it gives the argument a lot of credence.
 
Just realized this is most amount of matches Nani has played since his 1st season with us...aside from the Carragher tackle taking him out of his stride, maybe fatigue is also a factor.

I think he might be physically and mentally tired, which is possibly resulting in him returning to the Nani of early last season at times...
 
BTV_is_neutral said:
Just realized this is most amount of matches Nani has played since his 1st season with us...aside from the Carragher tackle taking him out of his stride, maybe fatigue is also a factor.

I think he might be physically and mentally tired, which is possibly resulting in him returning to the Nani of early last season at times...
Click to expand...

That's certainly come into it. Would do with most players. As you said, he's played far more this season than he has before.
 
Aaron said:
I've not ignored 80% of anything. I've responded to comments that I think are interesting and worthy of reply. If we're going to be obligated to respond to everything, even the uninteresting points we feel don't really add anything to the debate not already contributed so far, then we'd be here all night.

On that point, if you don't want my honest opinion as to what you have written, don't ask me why I haven't commented on it.
Click to expand...

When did I say I didn't?

If someone argues against you with pretty valid stats, MoTM, Ronaldo, assists (well, not in your case) then I'd say it's worthy of response. It's pretty blatant you're not responding to any of this stuff because you can't disprove any of it. Your eventual argument of the MoTM threads, after saying it to you umpteen times was so vague and poor that it didn't even work as an argument to it at all.

Aaron said:
But even besides all that, all I can see, aside from green and yellow smiley faces (that I'm honestly loathed to respond to in the first place) is just overall criticism of my position.

If you want to say I'm wrong, fine. I'll say you're wrong too. As long as everyone has a reason for that it's okay. I find the reasoning of what other people say, to be a spurious one that I cannot take seriously.

I have quoted and responded directly to many people in this thread. If I ignore elements of what someone says, it's because it is either not interesting or I want to respond more directly to something else.

If it is a crime to snip-quote someone in order to streamline the argument and avoid confusion, I think we're all guilty.
Click to expand...

Calling peoples comments not interesting is just as ignorant as posting smileys, if we're going by that logic.

This seems to be no longer a debate about Nani, sadly. It's a shame people see the need to have Nani v Valencia debates when one performs better than the other in a game, two great players to have at the club and this thread has been constantly berated with people coming in and saying Valancia is better or whatever.
 
Aaron said:
The long and the short of it is that my opinion is clearly 'wrong' as they agree with each other that it is. And if others agree with themselves, it gives the argument a lot of credence.
Click to expand...

Your opinion if you are using the logic: " Valencia is sometimes better than Nani " is fine, but you just tried to dig your own hole by claiming Valencia is always better than Nani, so I wouldn't be suprised that everyone is quoting you...

I agree that at times Nani can be fustrating and will not put the final ball in, but if you are saying Valencia is better at what Nani is doing is simply wrong because people can clearly see Nani is the superior player in almost all the terms of a winger, the unpredictability, the tecnique, the skill, his shooting etc...
 
RedThaiDevils#7 said:
Your opinion if you are using the logic: " Valencia is sometimes better than Nani " is fine, but you just tried to dig your own hole by claiming Valencia is always better than Nani, so I wouldn't be suprised that everyone is quoting you...

I agree that at times Nani can be fustrating and will not put the final ball in, but if you are saying Valencia is better at what Nani is doing is simply wrong because people can clearly see Nani is the superior player in almost all the terms of a winger, the unpredictability, the tecnique, the skill, his shooting etc...
Click to expand...

I never said he was always better than Nani.

Indeed, if anyone wants to look it up, this morning I said Nani had more individual talent than Valencia.

It's odd when argument that someone isn't the 'best in the country' at something, is portrayed as an isolationist view.
 
cina said:
Err... what?
Click to expand...

Well. To go step by step..

You asked when you said that you objected to me calling your posts not very interesting. Then later on in your post, you voiced objections to me calling other posts uninteresting.
 
Aaron said:
Well. To go step by step..

You asked when you said that you objected to me calling your posts not very interesting. Then later on in your post, you voiced objections to me calling other posts uninteresting.
Click to expand...

No I didn't. Look what I put in bold. Where in this thread have I said that I don't want your honest opinion?

If anything I've been trying to GET your opinion and you've been avoiding it.
 
Aaron,
I don't get your point really. What are you trying to achieve here?

The thread is is Nani now the best winger in the country? If you think he's not, please give us some examples of who do you think is better?

Nani has the best goal+assist ratio in the league this season. That means he has the best end product in the league, something he has been slated on numerous occasions before(and rightfully). Nani has grown immensely over the last year or so. You discount one assist against Shitty, but fail to mention how many other passes crosses were wasted by his teammates, that could've been assists.

In most games Nani is our most dangerous player and has been our best player for most of the season.

Honestly I can't see better wingers at the moment bar Messi(who plays more centrally now) and Ronaldo...

Again, what are you trying to prove here putting him down?
 
Now now lads, lets chill and see my latest joy sticks...

There is a reason why Nani was injured by Carragher, its was because Jamie changed Joysticks and decided to use

S10465609-24.jpg


After that tackle, Nani converted to a new joystick using:

S10465609-20.jpg
 
Stats are not a definitive benchmark, take Zidane and Lampard or Darren Bent and Dennis Bergkamp and compare their goals/assists. Who's better is just a matter of personal opinion.
 
Enigma_87 said:
Aaron,
I don't get your point really. What are you trying to achieve here?

The thread is is Nani now the best winger in the country? If you think he's not, please give us some examples of who do you think is better?

Nani has the best goal+assist ratio in the league this season. That means he has the best end product in the league, something he has been slated on numerous occasions before(and rightfully). Nani has grown immensely over the last year or so. You discount one assist against Shitty, but fail to mention how many other passes crosses were wasted by his teammates, that could've been assists.

In most games Nani is our most dangerous player and has been our best player for most of the season.

Honestly I can't see better wingers at the moment bar Messi(who plays more centrally now) and Ronaldo...

Again, what are you trying to prove here putting him down?
Click to expand...

This is a good post that gets right down to the point.

Aaron, you have an issue with Nani being called the best winger in the league, and for our team, well, go one step further and name them, with some reasons why. Which wingers have been better in the league, and for our club, and why/how?
 
Hectic said:
This is a good post that gets right down to the point.

Aaron, you have an issue with Nani being called the best winger in the league, and for our team, well, go one step further and name them, with some reasons why. Which wingers have been better in the league, and for our club, and why/how?
Click to expand...

I've already said Valencia is better, in my opinion. Naming him as a player who I think is better than Nani is, by default, confirming someone who i think is better than Nani, isn't it?

I've named Valencia as a player who I prefer in that position dozens of times. I'm not shy about naming who I think is better than Nani.
 
Aaron said:
I've already said Valencia is better, in my opinion. Naming him as a player who I think is better than Nani is, by default, confirming someone who i think is better than Nani, isn't it?

I've named Valencia as a player who I prefer in that position dozens of times. I'm not shy about naming who I think is better than Nani.
Click to expand...

In which case its no wonder you dismiss the blatantly obvious evidence that he's actually not as good a winger as Nani.
 
Ekeke said:
In which case its no wonder you dismiss the blatantly obvious evidence that he's actually not as good a winger as Nani.
Click to expand...

There is no obvious or blatant evidence for anything at all. It's all about perceptions and opinions. As it is with every player in every position at every club. So your point is ridiculous and hilarious.
 
Oh sorry, I forgot. Stats prove who is a better player and who isn't, don't they?

Stats prove that Bent is a better player than Rooney. Anyone who ignores the blatantly obvious evidence that he is should just look at the goals he's scored at Villa.

What kind of feck wit would argue with those stats?

Indeed with games to spare, Bent is close to matching Ronaldo's final league goal tally in his last season in England. Blatantly fecking obvious that the stats prove Bent > Ronaldo. At least, potentially if he slots in a few more this season.

How completely idiotic of me for thinking 'Hang on, stats don't tell you everything, I'll base my opinion and perception as to who I'd prefer out of Valencia and Nani on overall performance and contribution.'

What a fool hardy silly boy I was. Indeed it is a bit daft even watching anything to have an opinion on how a player does. Why not just look at the stats or consult with the MOTM thread or see if the hack from 'The Sun', the highly respected newspaper, gives them a 7 or above. Then you'd know, without needing to ever see them kick a ball, quite how fantastic they are.

The stats are obvious. Bent shits all over Rooney, is almost as good as Ronaldo and anyone who doesn't think that you can ascertain a great deal of a players performance by looking at the stats and what marks a stranger gives them out of 10 is a clueless feckwit.

I see the error or my ways and resign to the superior arguments placed in front of me.
 
The ignorance of that post Aaron is pathetic given how you've been slating others in here for not debating in a proper manner and just dismissing you etc.

I don't really recall anyone saying stats were the be all and end all. Comparing Rooney and Bent is a bit daft too, they're very different players this year, Bent is a complete poacher where as Rooney has reverted to his best position. I'm sure if we look at shots on goal ratio, passes completed, interceptions, Rooney would hands out win but they're irrelevant too seeing as Bent isn't expected to deliver in those areas like Rooney is. I'd also say Rooneys end product since he came back and hit form again has been better than Bents.

Fact is, Nani and Valencia are both wingers who are expected to deliver with crosses into the box with should meet a striker and find the back of the net, therefore assists are a very important aspect of their end product. I think you're a bit blinded here really, Valencia comes across as far less of a twat than Nani, and it seems to be clouding your judgement.

And considering nobody here has used assists as the be all and end all of their arguments, merely as a companion to prove their points, you seem to be focusing on them more than anyone. Dismissing them has basically turned into your entire argument now because you haven't been able to argue the fact that Nani is a much more talented, if more frustrating player than Valencia.

There's clearly no swaying you though, despite absolutely everyone disagreeing with you bar one person who seems to have completely given up on this thread, so I'll give up now.
 
I'm not really sure why you are posting in this thread Aaron.

If you have issue with nani being called the best winger in the league, ignore it?

You just seem to be winding people up over a non-issue.
 
Whether I'm ignorant or not, it is remarkable quite how offended people get if someone has a slightly different opinion on a player than they do.

Are we entering an era of ridiculous sensitivity where if you think one Manchester United player in the same position is better than the other, it is considered an offense?
 
Hectic said:
I'm not really sure why you are posting in this thread Aaron.

If you have issue with nani being called the best in the league, ignore it?

You just seem to be winding people up over a non-issue.
Click to expand...

The thread title is a question. Surely if you agreed with the sentiments you should ignore it rather than the other way around. Otherwise it makes little sense.
 
Moreover I'd contend that if people get wound up by a difference of opinion, they should go away and stop crying because someone prefers one player to another.

Some are acting as if I've just condoned paedophila or confessed to the assassination of Diana.
 
I think its because you aren't putting up much of an argument, but are ignoring the ones against you, which might frustrate others.
 
Aaron said:
Moreover I'd contend that if people get wound up by a difference of opinion, they should go away and stop crying because someone prefers one player to another.

Some are acting as if I've just condoned paedophila or confessed to the assassination of Diana.
Click to expand...

Again, I'm not so sure it's down to the different in opinion. I think you will find at least a clear majority, if not most posters would argue Nani is clearly a superior overall winger to Valencia, that's not to say the latter doesn't have attributes that better the formers. You are suggesting the opposite, but without putting much of an argument forward, seen as you ridicule the use of stats and other ways of comparing a players match effectiveness.

If you do this, which is essentially dismiss the counter-argument, but neglect to put a clear one arguing your opinion forward, it's going to cause frustration, and sniping of view, since a clear argument isn't there to deconstruct instead. Personally, I think you have glossed over a good few arguments which highlight why Nani is the best in our club, and league. I'm also not sure why you really had to post in here, yes, the thread title is a question, asked a long time ago. It's not really in question now, but even that aside, you can see the posts that have gone on for page after page, is it really worthwhile having to argue that Valencia is better? It's probably something you could have kept to yourself and avoided all the drama over. I'm not saying you should always keep your views to yourself, far from it, but sometimes you can see it's not worthwhile trying to argue against the masses, for what seems like a rather pointless issue.
 
Hectic said:
I think its because you aren't putting up much of an argument, but are ignoring the ones against you, which might frustrate others.
Click to expand...

I;ve said many times I think Valencia is more reliable than Nani. I think he is a better decision maker than Nani. I think his play and delivery has more consistency than Nani's. Going backwards I think he's better at defending than Nani and whilst I've admitted he doesn't have the individual skills that Nani has, as a team player I trust him more.

I've said this many, many, many times. The counter argument often raised is the statistical one and I've just mentioned why I don't really put that much faith in cold hard stats.

What we have is someone disagreeing with the assertion for his own reasons and someone agreeing with it for theirs.

Yet I'm the one portrayed as an unreasonable idiot because I don't agree?

Fine.
 
Well, it's probably down to you putting that statement forward, posters using means to disprove it, and you not accepting those means. I agree that stats are by no means the be all and end all of indicators for a players effectiveness, but for me, you have to be ludicrous to completely deny them.

So what do you really want them to do? You are saying Valencia is better for this this and this, they are saying Nani is better for this this and this, evidenced by stat stat stat.

Where do you envisage this going, in a thread full of posters believing Nani to be the better player, you posting things Valencia is better at, without anything else seems a bit of a pointless and fruitless argument to me? I think common sense could have told you where this would end up aaron.
 
Hectic said:
Well, it's probably down to you putting that statement forward, posters using means to disprove it, and you not accepting those means. I agree that stats are by no means the be all and end all of indicators for a players effectiveness, but for me, you have to be ludicrous to completely deny them.

So what do you really want them to do? You are saying Valencia is better for this this and this, they are saying Nani is better for this this and this, evidenced by stat stat stat.

Where do you envisage this going, in a thread full of posters believing Nani to be the better player, you posting things Valencia is better at, without anything else seems a bit of a pointless and fruitless argument to me? I think common sense could have told you where this would end up aaron.
Click to expand...

I've never met an argument yet that I didn't like.
 
More reliable is one hell of a word you'd use for a winger when they are those players that have to try to pull off something...

But I mean if we're just visualizing a player who just looks more reliable then probably yes, Valencia's game does look reliable in a way but you're gonna have one hell of a time finding arguments stats etc... to prove the word "reliable" here.
 
RedThaiDevils#7 said:
More reliable is one hell of a word you'd use for a winger when they are those players that have to try to pull off something...

But I mean if we're just visualizing a player who just looks more reliable then probably yes, Valencia's game does look reliable in a way but you're gonna have one hell of a time finding arguments stats etc... to prove the word "reliable" here.
Click to expand...

I'll have no problems finding an argument for calling Valencia more reliable. I think you only have to watch him play to see how, when on the ball, he's much likely to make something happen for someone else. He's unlikely to ignore the one, two, three or more far more obvious passes that'd put one, two three or more players in a better position, and instead decide to ghost into the middle for the fifth time in 10 minutes and end up giving the ball away.

I don't have a problem with any player, including Nani, having confidence in their own ability but what frustrates is when there is little variety in that. I think Valencia can be relied upon from the team aspect of it whereas Nani is perhaps more suited if you're looking for the individualistic approach. Nani can work excellently as a team player when he wants to and to me that makes it even more frustrating when he refuses.

To my mind until Nani varies his play up a bit more, starts noticing others around him more often than not when he gets into fantastic positions, there'd probably be no contest. But sadly he often doesn't and there is.

With all Valencia's deficiencies compared to Nani's in terms of individual skills-set, which I accept, I trust him more when push comes to shove in the 89th minute of the game to, if in a good position, make the right decision. I still don't trust Nani with that, I'm afraid.
 
Either way we have the two best wingers in the country.

The sad thing is that instead of posts highlighting the strength of our players these threads always resort to bashing our players instead. Where's the triumphant gloating? Where's the gluttonous player worship? Where's the Gareth Bale bashing? The overrated caveman isn't a touch on the Jackson twins.
 
We'll have great cover in the wide areas when Cleverly comes back in the summer. It would be nice to have a natural left footer but Nani's performances on the left mean it's not too much of a loss.
 
RedThaiDevils#7 said:
Nani can be fustrating and will not put the final ball in, but if you are saying Valencia is better at what Nani is doing is simply wrong because people can clearly see Nani is the superior player in almost all the terms of a winger, the unpredictability, the tecnique, the skill, his shooting etc...
Click to expand...

You forgot ''his pathetic attempts at diving''.

I'd rather have Valencia any day than Nani.
 
Aaron said:
Whether I'm ignorant or not, it is remarkable quite how offended people get if someone has a slightly different opinion on a player than they do.

Are we entering an era of ridiculous sensitivity where if you think one Manchester United player in the same position is better than the other, it is considered an offense?
Click to expand...

No, you just need to have a sensible argument.

Come back when you have that and I'm sure everyone will be very happy to have this discussion with you
 
I'd say, since we've relied on Nani for creating goals in 90% of this season's matches, that he's a fecking damn reliable winger. Most reliable winger in the country no less.
 
ciderman9000000 said:
I'd say, since we've relied on Nani for creating goals in for 90% of this season's matches, that he's a fecking damn reliable winger. Most reliable winger in the country no less.
Click to expand...

Using the 90% figure. I'd say he's 90% the perfect winger now.

Just a few faults and flaws to iron out, and he will be perfect.

Wonder what he'd be like up front?
 
Status
Not open for further replies.