Luis Nani | 2010/11 Performances

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The valencia getting picked ahead of nani argument falls on it's arse when you consider the run of games last season when fergie made the opposite team selection decision.

I do think there's an element of nani's overall quality being over-stated by people who felt he's been the victim of unfair criticism in the past and he can still be a very frustrating player to watch (and, evidently, to play alongside) When he's on top of his game, though, I can't think of a better winger in the league. In fact, when he's at his very best I would only pick Ronaldo and Messi ahead of him as an attacking threat down the wings.
 
Aaron said:
I'm not putting Nani down. As I said before, my criticisms of him seem more pointed because perhaps I feel the need to provide the contrast with the lavish superlatives that I'm dubious as to whether he fully deserves or not.

I think he's a very good player and has improved tremendously to what he was before. I just think there are elements of his game, important elements, that let him down. I think for what a 'winger' does, Valencia is a more rounded player in that position.
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He has some areas which are unlikely to ever be his strong point, but in the final third he is a match winner. He wins us games with his delivery or a goal on a very consistant basis. Other than Ronaldo no winger is a match winner like he is. And thats simply more important than being the best winger at playing right back or being great at taking on his fullback. The result is what matters and Nani gets us the results on a consistant basis.
 
cina said:
You're picking out one of his 21 assists, most of which have been wonderful passes/crosses. Well in buddy.

And also, terrible ball in? Yeah, a cross that finds the striker in the box, what a pile of shit.
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I was just using that as an example.

If in the FA Cup semi final before Giggs scored 'THAT' goal, if the ball game to him in that position from a team made (as opposed Anelka) would that be an assist worthy of note?

I'm not discounting all assists but I am saying that given the nature of them in that they can be either a great incisive cross or pass, or an unspectacular pass or mishit cross or something that relies heavily on individual skill from someone else...

..because it can be all of those things, and often is in a mixture, I think its an odd statistic to try and be conclusive in this kind of argument.
 
Aaron said:
I was just using that as an example.

If in the FA Cup semi final before Giggs scored 'THAT' goal, if the ball game to him in that position from a team made (as opposed Anelka) would that be an assist worthy of note?

I'm not discounting all assists but I am saying that given the nature of them in that they can be either a great incisive cross or pass, or an unspectacular pass or mishit cross or something that relies heavily on individual skill from someone else...

..because it can be all of those things, and often is in a mixture, I think its an odd statistic to try and be conclusive in this kind of argument.
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:lol: Giggs FA Cup goal. Deary me. What a stupid comparison to make.

So when a player gets 21 of them, triple the amount of the closest player in the league, it's all just a big load of 'meh' and doesn't mean anything? It doesn't signify that he has more end product than anyone else, no?
 
Aaron said:
I was just using that as an example.

If in the FA Cup semi final before Giggs scored 'THAT' goal, if the ball game to him in that position from a team made (as opposed Anelka) would that be an assist worthy of note?

I'm not discounting all assists but I am saying that given the nature of them in that they can be either a great incisive cross or pass, or an unspectacular pass or mishit cross or something that relies heavily on individual skill from someone else...

..because it can be all of those things, and often is in a mixture, I think its an odd statistic to try and be conclusive in this kind of argument.
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Not suggesting that it's conclusive by any means but it's hardly "odd". It does point to the fact that he does more and Valencia is hardly superior in this department despite his genuinely better defensive qualities.

You just choose to ignore it and use as an example mishit passes while ignoring the genuinely good and precise ones....poor arguing IMO
 
Everyone can get lucky now and again. You're right Nani's cross was deflected to Rooney against City. When else has he got lucky with one? And he's had so many assists...

Then yesterday Valencia had the same thing. His cross was deflected and luckily it became a more dangerous cross. So it can happen for any player, not just those who get assists all the time.

Rather than discounting the assist stat, perhaps you could list all the times Nani has been lucky with a deflection on his assist, and we'll remove that number from his total. Then we'll do the exact same thing with Valencia and then you have your respectable stat.
 
I wouldn't use assists to 'big up' a player. I wouldn't really use any stats as I think that's a really cold, withdrawn and unemotional way of evaluating performance.

Goals and clean sheets aside.
 
Ekeke said:
Everyone can get lucky now and again. You're right Nani's cross was deflected to Rooney against City. When else has he got lucky with one? And he's had so many assists...

Then yesterday Valencia had the same thing. His cross was deflected and luckily it became a more dangerous cross. So it can happen for any player, not just those who get assists all the time.

Rather than discounting the assist stat, perhaps you could list all the times Nani has been lucky with a deflection on his assist, and we'll remove that number from his total. Then we'll do the exact same thing with Valencia and then you have your respectable stat.
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My point exactly but Aaron has to go back to 1999 for some reason:lol:
 
What about the stats Top posted earlier showing that he's got the pretty much the highest MoTM stats of any player in the squad? They mean nothing do they?
 
It's a shame his form has dipped lately. I think he's playing with a number of small injuries though, he said as much after the Liverpool game iirc.

His contribution this season should not be ignored though. Hasn't he contributed in over 1/4 of our goals this season or something? That really is incredible.
 
Aaron said:
I wouldn't use assists to 'big up' a player. I wouldn't really use any stats as I think that's a really cold, withdrawn and unemotional way of evaluating performance.

Goals and clean sheets aside.
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Yet your opinion is based on......? No wait let's not go there again
 
Inigo Montoya said:
My point exactly but Aaron has to go back to 1999 for some reason:lol:
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it was the easiest example that I could think of as to a player who scored a goal through brilliant individual skill and talent who, if he would have been passed to, would have resulted in an assist being given to that player.

It was an illustrative example that would apply regardless as to when it happened.

Ronaldo's goal vs Fulham from a few years back if people want more examples. Frankly if the problem is with the age of the example and not the point, the counter argument is hardly strong.
 
I dont think its a coincidence that his form dropped when he started playing on the left again. Had some fantastic performances on the left too dont get me wrong, but nowhere near as his consistant fantastic performances on the right.

Valencia coming back and playing well sort of makes up for Nani's move and dip. Although in a one off big match I'd choose Nani on the right so we have our biggest match winners in their best positions.
 
Aaron said:
it was the easiest example that I could think of as to a player who scored a goal through brilliant individual skill and talent who, if he would have been passed to, would have resulted in an assist being given to that player.
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That really should tell you something about your argument. That you'd need to go back to 1999 and recount something that wasnt even an assist...
 
You can't discount assists because some may be a simple pass and the scorer goes on to beat 4-5 players and stick it in the top corner. The same can be true in reverse, a player beating a few defenders and laying it on a plate for a striker to tap in from a yard. It just gives you a general impression of how much someone is contributing to our goals and Nani contributes as much as anyone in the squad.
 
Aaron said:
it was the easiest example that I could think of as to a player who scored a goal through brilliant individual skill and talent who, if he would have been passed to, would have resulted in an assist being given to that player.

It was an illustrative example that would apply regardless as to when it happened.

Ronaldo's goal vs Fulham from a few years back if people want more examples. Frankly if the problem is with the age of the example and not the point, the counter argument is hardly strong.
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Or points to your rather obvious ignorance of Utd's recent form
 
If anyone saw Real Madrid Vs. Valencia last night, Madrid scored 6 goals and most of them were "assisted" by a fairly simple pass across the 6 yard box.

It doesnt change that the players who got to that position sent in good deliver to the goalscorer. If you can do that, why not do that? Its effective. If you cant do that and you need to cross the ball from outside the box, then thats fantastic too. Just doing whatever it takes to set up a team mate should be celebrated.
 
Ekeke said:
If anyone saw Real Madrid Vs. Valencia last night, Madrid scored 6 goals and most of them were "assisted" by a fairly simple pass across the 6 yard box.

It doesnt change that the players who got to that position sent in good deliver to the goalscorer. If you can do that, why not do that? Its effective. If you cant do that and you need to cross the ball from outside the box, then thats fantastic too. Just doing whatever it takes to set up a team mate should be celebrated.
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Of course, it's a mixed bag. Some assists ARE worth more than others. I don't care what year or month or week you refer back to, in order to make the point. The idea that 'assists' in general, in terms of stats, are used in a blanket way of praising a players performance, is nonsense.

You can look at some and give praise to a job well done and look at others and say "he didn't really mean that" or "the other guy made his own goal there".

That isn't Nani exclusive, by the way. Using assists as a blanket way as some have, with any player, is ridiculous.
 
Aaron said:
Different argument, you shouldn't need that spelling out to you.
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No, you choose to argue points when it suits you while ignoring others or seeing tem as based on lack of emotion,cold etc..it's hollow really.You don't need that spelling out to you. I wonder how many Utd games you've actually watched
 
Inigo Montoya said:
No, you choose to argue points when it suits you while ignoring others or seeing tem as based on lack of emotion,cold etc..it's hollow really.You don't need that spelling out to you. I wonder how many Utd games you've actually watched
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If you want to counter against what I'm saying, try and actually respond to what I say rather than reiterate your disagreement with me in the overall subject matter. Fine if you wish to do that but don't quote something I've specifically said and then respond with something so vague and irrelevant.

If you quote what I say, I'll presume you're responding to it and not just making an overview point.
 
Aaron said:
The idea that 'assists' in general, in terms of stats, are used in a blanket way of praising a players performance, is nonsense.
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No it's not.

Ronaldo 06/07 got loads of assists, brilliant ones and got praise heaped upon him for them. Nani is doing the same this year, but with less goals.

You're the one talking nonsense here, dismissing the assists, going back to 99 to find a feasible goal to argue with. You're also ignoring all the other stats here in this thread, like the MoTM stats, which prove how good he's been, GENUINELY, seeing as they're voted in the overall context of match performances by members of the Caf.

I think you're just one of those people who still refuses to accept how good Nani has become and harbors dislike from back in his heavily frustrating days.

It's embarrassing that you're still arguing here seeing as everyone has disagreed and proved you wrong, repeatedly.
 
cina said:
It's embarrassing that you're still arguing here seeing as everyone has disagreed and proved you wrong, repeatedly.
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It's fairly embarrassing for an adult person to think the fact that others agree with you is definitive.
 
Aaron said:
It's fairly embarrassing for an adult person to think the fact that others agree with you is definitive.
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I see you're not commenting on anything else I've said there. Ronaldo's assists, the MoTM threads. Nah, just ignore them, irrelevant right?

And it is definitive, there's disagreeing and there's sprouting utter shit which people have disproved over and over and over again.
 
cina said:
I see you're not commenting on anything else I've said there.
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No which is why I only commented on the bit I quoted. I wish others would adopt the same approach.

I didn't feel anything else you said was interesting enough to justify comment. Especially the bit where you cite the Caf MOTM threads. I don't wish to be rude but if you ask, you'll get the answer.
 
Aaron said:
No which is why I only commented on the bit I quoted. I wish others would adopt the same approach.

I didn't feel anything else you said was interesting enough to justify comment. Especially the bit where you cite the Caf MOTM threads. I don't wish to be rude but if you ask, you'll get the answer.
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What's wrong with the MoTM threads?

Can I have the answer? Please? I really want you to tell me why they're irrelevant and don't argue against what you've been saying in this thread.

"interesting enough" :lol:
 
Well, and this isn't my only objection, for a start the exclude debate and opinion. So they're opinions formed that are both untested and unchallenged. Even the constituent of the thread is flawed let alone analysing the conclusions.
 
Aaron said:
Of course, it's a mixed bag. Some assists ARE worth more than others. I don't care what year or month or week you refer back to, in order to make the point. The idea that 'assists' in general, in terms of stats, are used in a blanket way of praising a players performance, is nonsense.

You can look at some and give praise to a job well done and look at others and say "he didn't really mean that" or "the other guy made his own goal there".

That isn't Nani exclusive, by the way. Using assists as a blanket way as some have, with any player, is ridiculous.
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I think most people would admit assists arent a perfect science and there should be a bit of doubt when there's a reasonably small difference in the two players. When its large numbers of difference, there can be no excuses and no amount of doubt is reasonable. Its still not perfect but you cannot dismiss it
 
Aaron said:
Well, and this isn't my only objection, for a start the exclude debate and opinion. So they're opinions formed that are both untested and unchallenged. Even the constituent of the thread is flawed let alone analysing the conclusions.
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Do you think before you type?

So people shouldn't post who they believe was MoTM, after watching the full match for 90 minutes, straight after it, without having a big discussion with someone in order to be persuaded from doing so?

Genius.
 
cina said:
Do you think before you type?

So people shouldn't post who they believe was MoTM, after watching the full match for 90 minutes, straight after it, without having a big discussion with someone in order to be persuaded from doing so?

Genius.
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I do think before I type. I suspect that if you have to cite a thread on an internet forum to substantiate your opinion, you should consider a slightly longer pause yourself.

Frankly the arguments of quoting a word and using that as a reason for abuse in order to counter points made and citing what other people have said, is a nonsense and really not worth anyone's time responding to.

"I'm right because others agree"

Fair enough.

Not withstanding the quote of the word 'Fair' by the next person who'll say something like:

"Yes, fair, something you've not been as you've been clueless"

Brilliant.
 
Aaron said:
I do think before I type. I suspect that if you have to cite a thread on an internet forum to substantiate your opinion, you should consider a slightly longer pause yourself.

Frankly the arguments of quoting a word and using that as a reason for abuse in order to counter points made and citing what other people have said, is a nonsense and really not worth anyone's time responding to.

"I'm right because others agree"

Fair enough.

Not withstanding the quote of the word 'Fair' by the next person who'll say something like:

"Yes, fair, something you've not been as you've been clueless"

Brilliant.
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I see the penny's finally dropped
 
If the line of breaching the assumption of the other person's integrity because they disagree with your own conclusion, has been crossed, then so be it.

But I'd like it noted I wasn't the first one to venture into that area but am happy to be a close second.
 
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