Luis Nani | 2010/11 Performances

[Aaron]

Stats will only tell you so much. His overall value to the team will be substantiated by how many times the manager picks him over Valencia in the big games, when both fit.

Of course you couldn't say he hasn't done well, but to ignore the short-comings in his game by quoting a few statistics, I think is very short sighted and why the 'team of the year', as picked by and based on stats, is theoretically imbalanced and probably not really very good.

Stats can be used to prove anything you want if you pick the right ones out. Overall contribution, consistency, vision and team work are often not picked up in isolated stats.

I'm more harsh in my criticism of Nani simply to counter against the 'best in the country' nonsense that I see and hear. He's very good and is a top player but in my view he's not even the best player in that position for his club. Certainly not his country. Let alone considering a wider net than that.

I also think you can look at the reaction of his team mates and it'd tell you something when he plays. How frustrated they are with him and how, sometimes, little they appear to care when he's on the ball as they, often rightly, anticipate complete isolation from what is about to happen. The annoyance of the front pair, usually Rooney and Berbatov, who will look absolutely resigned to defeat when a move breaks down when he's on the ball. Valencia doesn't get that. It doesn't always work for him either but he doesn't get that look from his team mates when it doesn't. He doesn't get that groan from the crowd.

My critiquing of his game only stands out in contrast to people who somehow think that because of a much improved one season that he should be spoken about in the top echelon of player. Even if he has had a great season (I'd say much improved as opposed to great), it is only one season, or one year and much of that was only through getting an opportunity due to injuries of others.

I do feel I'm being slightly too harsh and critical in my pointed analysis of the player but I only do so because I feel an obligation to counter the frankly ridiculous superlatives that get directed towards him from time to time.

 

[Top]

Stats will only tell you so much.

The MotM stat isn't just like any random assist or goal stat.
When a player is named Caf MotM after a match then it's based on everything the player has done in said match and thus goes beyond being just a random number.
It gives you a very accurate and quick insight into how a player has done in a match compared to his team mates, as judged by hundreds of United fans who have watched said match.

You could then argue that the hundred United fans are biased and that you're the one who's correct, but this was my way of excluding both of our biased viewpoints. But I guess it's easier to dismiss when it doesn't fit your agenda.

 

[mariachi-19]

Not really. Valencia isn't bi-footed (if thats the term) but if Nani was as crucial and as important a player as suggested, surely he'd start ahead of him and have Nani on the right and Park on the left.

Valencia's inability to play on the left has nothing to do with it. If Ferguson thought Nani was a better player and offered more than Valencia, he'd be starting the big games on the right and Valencia would be on the bench.

I could be wrong going forward but I suspect in the big away games and big european games, Nani will not start.

I'm sorry what Have you actually watched United this season and seen his contribution?

Nani is better on the right then he is the left, but he's still half decent on the left. He's put there because our team is stronger having both he and Valencia on the pitch. If we had an equally strong left winger who could play as much as Valencia does, Valencia would be on the bench more then Nani.

 

[Aaron]

I'm sorry what Have you actually watched United this season and seen his contribution?

Nani is better on the right then he is the left, but he's still half decent on the left. He's put there because our team is stronger having both he and Valencia on the pitch.

If he was better on the right than Valencia, in the manager's eyes, he would have played away vs Chelsea in that position rather than Valencia. He'd also play there rather than Valencia against Schalke on Tuesday and at the Emirates next week.

Personally, I don't think he will.

 

[Aaron]

In terms of players that are truly crucial to the side, I think you have to look at players who when it comes to the big games, regardless of who it is, if fit, play.

VDS, Rio, Vidic, Evra and Rooney are all in that category. Giggs and Scholes used to be and often are but due to their age now, sadly it isn't the case any more. Hernandez is growing into that role but isn't quite there yet.

Valencia, I accept, also isn't there yet. But neither is Nani.

 

[mariachi-19]

If he was better on the right than Valencia, in the manager's eyes, he would have played away vs Chelsea in that position rather than Valencia. He'd also play there rather than Valencia against Schalke on Tuesday and at the Emirates next week.

Personally, I don't think he will.

Thats quite simple. Valencia is a better defender. Why go gung ho away from home when 1-0 will do with the return leg to play? You'll also find Nani will probably start on the right with Park on the left and Rooney alone for the game against Arsenal given our previous track record against them. They couldn't handle them last year or so far this year, so why change it up?

 

[Enigma_87]

Nani is the best player this year for the team that is currently top of the league with 6 points clear. We're also in the SF's of the CL.

Nani end product has been immense and he's a key player who can win the game without playing well. He's a top top player and is in fact the best winger in the country bar none..

 

[Aaron]

Nani is the best player this year for the team that is currently top of the league with 6 points clear. We're also in the SF's of the CL.

Nani end product has been immense and he's a key player who can win the game without playing well. He's a top top player and is in fact the best winger in the country bar none..

Not even bar the person who the manager prefers to play ahead of him?

 

[Ekeke]

Not even bar the person who the manager prefers to play ahead of him?

Nani has been picked instead of Valencia plenty of times too

Park was even picked on the right instead of Nani or Valencia recently. I guess he's the best.

 

[Massive Spanner]

If he was better on the right than Valencia, in the manager's eyes, he would have played away vs Chelsea in that position rather than Valencia. He'd also play there rather than Valencia against Schalke on Tuesday and at the Emirates next week.

Personally, I don't think he will.

No, if he was defensively better he would have.

Of course he's better than Valencia on the right. Are you actually debating that he's been our best player this season?

 

[Aaron]

Nani has been picked instead of Valencia plenty of times too

Park was even picked on the right instead of Nani or Valencia recently. I guess he's the best.

But then what are we judging a player on? Surely it's required to be part of any players repertoire, particularly wingers with the advent of the 'modern day' full back, to be able to defend.

If we're excluding what is a very important part of the game from his arsenal, it gives even less credence to the suggestion Nani is the best in that position in the country.

 

[Ekeke]

But then what are we judging a player on?

Performance over a season. Which is what its always been based on, not who is picked in one off matches

Over the season Nani has been miles better than Valencia was when he played on the right last season. Thats no insult to Valencia at all, almost every winger except Ronaldo would suffer in that comparison (Messi is a striker these days)

Surely it's required to be part of any players repertoire, particularly wingers with the advent of the 'modern day' full back, to be able to defend.

It is and on most occasions this season Nani has shown good tracking back and decent ability to defend. Valencia however has shown he can even do a good job at right back... Eh there arent too many wingers, even the ones more talented and much more high profile than Valencia, who could claim they are better defensively than Valencia.

If we're excluding what is a very important part of the game from his arsenal, it gives even less credence to the suggestion Nani is the best in that position in the country.

Well, when O'Shea was asked to play in goal was he then the best goalkeeper in the world? Because he's better on the ball than goalkeepers, has scored more goals, has more assists, better at tackling and so on?

Or was what really mattered how good he is at saving shots and taking crosses? As with a winger and scoring and creating goals

 

[SFraser]

But then what are we judging a player on? Surely it's required to be part of any players repertoire, particularly wingers with the advent of the 'modern day' full back, to be able to defend.

If we're excluding what is a very important part of the game from his arsenal, it gives even less credence to the suggestion Nani is the best in that position in the country.

Valencia is excellent defensively. Nani isn't bad. He certainly is a whole level above Ronaldo when it comes keeping shape, closing down and tracking back.

Your point that Valencia is ahead of Nani in the pecking order is utter bullshit. Valencia has been out six months, needs games and offers something different to Nani. Nani as I said last week has hit a bit of dip in his form but is still a shit hot winger.

Don't forget it was him and Berbatov that dragged us through our early season woes.

I hate these bullshit comparison threads, and even worse the bullshit posters that spam them.

 

[Aaron]

Valencia is excellent defensively. Nani isn't bad. He certainly is a whole level above Ronaldo when it comes keeping shape, closing down and tracking back.

Your point that Valencia is ahead of Nani in the pecking order is utter bullshit. Valencia has been out six months, needs games and offers something different to Nani. Nani as I said last week has hit a bit of dip in his form but is still a shit hot winger.

Don't forget it was him and Berbatov that dragged us through our early season woes.

I hate these bullshit comparison threads, and even worse the bullshit posters that spam them.

So its only a 'bullshit' comparison if you don't think that 'Nani is the best winger in the country'? Isn't that also an indirect comparison to every winger in the country, including those who he competes for a first team place with, at our club?

 

[Inigo Montoya]

Performance over a season. Which is what its always been based on, not who is picked in one off matches

Over the season Nani has been miles better than Valencia was when he played on the right last season. Thats no insult to Valencia at all, almost every winger except Ronaldo would suffer in that comparison (Messi is a striker these days)



It is and on most occasions this season Nani has shown good tracking back and decent ability to defend. Valencia however has shown he can even do a good job at right back... Eh there arent too many wingers, even the ones more talented and much more high profile than Valencia, who could claim they are better defensively than Valencia

Well, when O'Shea was asked to play in goal was he then the best goalkeeper in the world? Because he's better on the ball than goalkeepers, has scored more goals, has more assists, better at tackling and so on?

Or was what really mattered how good he is at saving shots and taking crosses? As with a winger and scoring and creating goals

Good post

 

[Ixion]

Nani for me is alongside VDS our player of the season, how can there be any question marks about him. I wouldn't swap him for any other winger in the league.

 

[Massive Spanner]

I've just read all of what Aaron said...

 

[Aaron]

All these people disagreeing with me. And there I was thinking there was sense in the world.

Long time paaasing....When will you ever learn?

etc

 

[Decotron]

How long do people reckon he'll stay at United? Personally I've never thought of him as a lifer. Dont really see him here in 3 seasons time...

 

[UnitedBoy]

bad game yesterday, but that wasnt entirely his fault..
very isolated on the wing, with little support from o shea.

 

[Aaron]

How long do people reckon he'll stay at United? Personally I've never thought of him as a lifer. Dont really see him here in 3 seasons time...

It depends. I think Valencia offers more overall and I can see us being in the market for another left footer, if only because of the impending loss of Giggs that'll happen sooner or later.

If we do sign someone with a left foot in the summer, his role next season would be interesting.

 

[Top]

Performance over a season. Which is what its always been based on, not who is picked in one off matches

Over the season Nani has been miles better than Valencia was when he played on the right last season. Thats no insult to Valencia at all, almost every winger except Ronaldo would suffer in that comparison (Messi is a striker these days)



It is and on most occasions this season Nani has shown good tracking back and decent ability to defend. Valencia however has shown he can even do a good job at right back... Eh there arent too many wingers, even the ones more talented and much more high profile than Valencia, who could claim they are better defensively than Valencia.



Well, when O'Shea was asked to play in goal was he then the best goalkeeper in the world? Because he's better on the ball than goalkeepers, has scored more goals, has more assists, better at tackling and so on?

Or was what really mattered how good he is at saving shots and taking crosses? As with a winger and scoring and creating goals

Spot on, a shame Aaron has decided to ignore it.

 

[UnitedBoy]

if nani was to leave, could only see him going to spain.
where in my eyes, hes not as good as what real or madrid already have.

 

[Aaron]

Spot on, a shame Aaron has decided to ignore it.

I don't ignore it, I just disagree with the conclusions.

 

[Inigo Montoya]

It depends. I think Valencia offers more overall and I can see us being in the market for another left footer, if only because of the impending loss of Giggs that'll happen sooner or later.

If we do sign someone with a left foot in the summer, his role next season would be interesting.

What has Valencia have to do with whether Nani stays or goes? Surely we can accomodate both

 

[Massive Spanner]

I don't ignore it, I just disagree with the conclusions.

i.e. you have absolutely no means to attempt to argue with it so you just say you 'disagree'?

It depends. I think Valencia offers more overall and I can see us being in the market for another left footer.

Incomprehensible for me that you can say this. You can't dismiss stats and Nani's have been amazing this year. You're just choosing to ignore everything positive about Nani and instead focus on the one, single thing Valencia does better than him, which is to defend.

 

[Inigo Montoya]

I don't ignore it, I just disagree with the conclusions.

Just as many have with yours but you see yours as "sense" while like all on here it's merely an opinion don't get hung up about it

 

[Aaron]

i.e. you have absolutely no means to attempt to argue with it so you just say you 'disagree'?

I've argued against it repeatedly. I was just succinctly trying to clarify my position.

 

[Massive Spanner]

I've argued against it repeatedly. I was just succinctly trying to clarify my position.

You haven't though. Ekeke completely proved your argument invalid there and you're clearly not able to disprove what he's said.

 

[Ekeke]

I don't ignore it, I just disagree with the conclusions.

Who is the better player? Carlton Cole or Javier Hernandez?

Carlton Cole does everything except score, Hernandez has amazing movement and scores a very good ratio of his shots.

But Cole has the more skills all together. Is he better?

I can actually see why you think Valencia is just as good as Nani in terms of overall skills. He's just as "complete" as Nani is, but with a different - less dangerous, skillset. I just dont think you are emphasising the skills that you mainly look at in a winger as you should be. And I think you're trying to put Nani down when you dont need to.

 

[Top]

I don't ignore it, I just disagree with the conclusions.

Then why not address the conclusions you disagree with?
Like Ekeke, I think your way of looking at things is flawed and Ekeke has challenged your views with solid arguments, would be interesting to see what you disagree with.

 

[Aaron]

Who is the better player? Carlton Cole or Javier Hernandez?

Carlton Cole does everything except score, Hernandez has amazing movement and scores a very good ratio of his shots.

But Cole has the more skills all together. Is he better?

I can actually see why you think Valencia is just as good as Nani in terms of overall skills. He's just as "complete" as Nani is, but with a different - less dangerous, skillset. I just dont think you are emphasising the skills that you mainly look at in a winger as you should be. And I think you're trying to put Nani down when you dont need to.

I'm not putting Nani down. As I said before, my criticisms of him seem more pointed because perhaps I feel the need to provide the contrast with the lavish superlatives that I'm dubious as to whether he fully deserves or not.

I think he's a very good player and has improved tremendously to what he was before. I just think there are elements of his game, important elements, that let him down. I think for what a 'winger' does, Valencia is a more rounded player in that position.

 

[Aaron]

Then why not address the conclusions you disagree with?
Like Ekeke, I think your way of looking at things is flawed and Ekeke has challenged your views with solid arguments, would be interesting to see what you disagree with.

I've made my point repeatedly and extensively before and within the last hour or two on here. Just because I make one pithy point in direct response to someone accusing me of ignoring the arguments when I have argued with those arguments at length this morning, I wouldn't expect much to be read into that.

 

[Inigo Montoya]

I'm not putting Nani down. As I said before, my criticisms of him seem more pointed because perhaps I feel the need to provide the contrast with the lavish superlatives that I'm dubious as to whether he fully deserves or not.

I think he's a very good player and has improved tremendously to what he was before. I just think there are elements of his game, important elements, that let him down. I think for what a 'winger' does, Valencia is a more rounded player in that position.

That's where your argument is flawed. I think you'll find that last season Nani had the higher number of assists" in that position". Doesn't make Valencia a worse player by your logic but it shows that he(Nani) has a well rounded game.

 

[Massive Spanner]

I'm not putting Nani down. As I said before, my criticisms of him seem more pointed because perhaps I feel the need to provide the contrast with the lavish superlatives that I'm dubious as to whether he fully deserves or not.

I think he's a very good player and has improved tremendously to what he was before. I just think there are elements of his game, important elements, that let him down. I think for what a 'winger' does, Valencia is a more rounded player in that position.

Valencia is an out and out right winger, if anything he's far less rounded than Nani.

Nani is a better crosser and passer, some of the balls he puts into the box are just beyond Valencias scope, he's just less consistent with them.
He's a better goalscorer.
He's two footed.
He can run past players easier than any other player in the PL.

But hey, Valencia defends better and sticks to the right hand side, he doesn't try to do things that Nani does, which makes him less frustrating to watch, but far more predictable and easier for defenders to mark.

How you can argue that Valencia is a better player than Nani is just ridiculous.

 

[Aaron]

That's where your argument is flawed. I think you'll find that last season Nani had the higher number of assists" in that position". Doesn't make Valencia a worse player by your logic but it shows that he(Nani) has a well rounded game.

The reason I discount the assist argument is that it can be so inconclusive.

His cross vs City at home that lead to Rooney's overhead volley, was technically, an assist. But it was an awful cross only made out of something through individual brilliance.

I'm not trying to imply that is the 'norm' or typical of his contributions. Necessarily anyway.

Yet I think that assists is a very easy thing to use to lavish praise on a player and I'm not sure that if you looked at each individually, you'd see much to use as a plaudit.

It could be a great cross or a key pass or it could be a simple pass or misplaced cross or a piece of individual skill or...whatever.

Sometimes is, sometimes isn't. But because it sometimes is something that if you reviewed the incident again, you'd be pressed to offer too much praise for the delivery, I find it hard to take the assist stat that seriously.

Not to discount it altogether of course but too much can be read into it.

 

[RedThaiDevils#7]

I'm not putting Nani down. As I said before, my criticisms of him seem more pointed because perhaps I feel the need to provide the contrast with the lavish superlatives that I'm dubious as to whether he fully deserves or not.

I think he's a very good player and has improved tremendously to what he was before. I just think there are elements of his game, important elements, that let him down. I think for what a 'winger' does, Valencia is a more rounded player in that position.

That looks like a comment that you would spark up when you only watched Nani for the 3 pass matches...

There is no debate, Nani has more talent, more skill than Valencia will ever have.

Valencia is however, effective in what he does and they both play for the best team in the world...

Its that simple.

There are times though when Valencia is the likable player because he doesn't do those fancy tricks but does get that final ball in...

Especially last season with Rooney, he was assisting like mad while Nani found his feat at Arsenal.

 

[Massive Spanner]

The reason I discount the assist argument is that it can be so inconclusive.

His cross vs City at home that lead to Rooney's overhead volley, was technically, an assist. But it was an awful cross only made out of something through individual brilliance.

I'm not trying to imply that is the 'norm' or typical of his contributions. Necessarily anyway.

Yet I think that assists is a very easy thing to use to lavish praise on a player and I'm not sure that if you looked at each individually, you'd see much to use as a plaudit.

It could be a great cross or a key pass or it could be a simple pass or misplaced cross or a piece of individual skill or...whatever.

Sometimes is, sometimes isn't. But because it sometimes is something that if you reviewed the incident again, you'd be pressed to offer too much praise for the delivery, I find it hard to take the assist stat that seriously.

Not to discount it altogether of course but too much can be read into it.

You're picking out one of his 21 assists, most of which have been wonderful passes/crosses. Well in buddy.

And also, terrible ball in? Yeah, a cross that finds the striker in the box, what a pile of shit.

 

[Kevin]

Err Aaron, didn't you also post that Valencia starting at Chelsea Away was a big indicator of Nani going the Berbatov way (ie, not being picked for the big games) and said you were heavily doubting whether he'd get a look in at the home tie?

I tried to dig up that post as soon as I saw Nani in the starting lineup at the time, but could never find the right thread or remember wtf the name was of the guy who posted it.

Anyway, you were wrong then.

 

[Inigo Montoya]

The reason I discount the assist argument is that it can be so inconclusive.

His cross vs City at home that lead to Rooney's overhead volley, was technically, an assist. But it was an awful cross only made out of something through individual brilliance.

I'm not trying to imply that is the 'norm' or typical of his contributions. Necessarily anyway.

Yet I think that assists is a very easy thing to use to lavish praise on a player and I'm not sure that if you looked at each individually, you'd see much to use as a plaudit.

It could be a great cross or a key pass or it could be a simple pass or misplaced cross or a piece of individual skill or...whatever.

Sometimes is, sometimes isn't. But because it sometimes is something that if you reviewed the incident again, you'd be pressed to offer too much praise for the delivery, I find it hard to take the assist stat that seriously.

Not to discount it altogether of course but too much can be read into it.

What specious nonsense

Yet your assertion is that Valencia does more "in that position".

BTW I was talking about the whole of last season when a more balanced comparison could be made, no mention of City. By the same token Valencia's cross for the winner yesterday was going nowhere until a deflection...so let's be reductive about his contribution shall we.....