Louis van Gaal's tactics

[United again!]

Just wanted to personally thank @NL Max for this thread. It is a great write up. I really feel that if the majority of the users went back and read through the OP then it would start to make sense for a lot of people.

but he's NOT changing so I'm just stating the facts

This part makes the most sense. He has definitely not allowed himself to adapt at all to English football.

 

[Empire]

This part makes the most sense. He has definitely not allowed himself to adapt at all to English football.

Perhaps to him there is just football, not Spanish football, not German football, not English football, just football?

He has already stated each game is different and his tactics are tweaked depending on the opposition, he will identify strengths and weaknesses of his opponents, attempt to neutralise their strengths and exploit their weaknesses.

 

[SqueakyWeasel]

Perhaps to him there is just football, (*)not Spanish football, not German football, not English football, just football?

He has already stated each game is different and his tactics are tweaked depending on the opposition(**), he will identify strengths and weaknesses of his opponents, attempt to neutralise their strengths and exploit their weaknesses.

*He's constantly saying that this league is by far the toughest he's ever experienced.

**I'm sure he probably believes that but, other than the top 4, that for some crazy reason we did well against, the opposite was in fact true for most of last season, he played the same tactics game-in game-out and the opposition were lining up to neutralise us knowing exactly what to expect.

 

[Mali_Zeus]

*He's constantly saying that this league is by far the toughest he's ever experienced.

**I'm sure he probably believes that but, other than the top 4, that for some crazy reason we did well against, the opposite was in fact true for most of last season, he played the same tactics game-in game-out and the opposition were lining up to neutralise us knowing exactly what to expect.

You can play the same formation and still adapt to the oponnent.

 

[SqueakyWeasel]

You can play the same formation and still adapt to the oponnent.

I agree, but is he?

 

[Mali_Zeus]

I agree, but is he?

Well I'm sure some of the games we won, including big ones was due to him adapting our style and formation to the oponnent.

This is what I dont get - he changed a formation in preseason, everybody wants him to keep 4-3-3.
But then again him not changing is a problem too.

 

[Mali_Zeus]

Anyway OP clearly states he always plays the same formation or played it wherever he's been.
So either he'll play it this season too or will abandon it first time in his career.

 

[Sylar]

I have a feeling through injuries / suspensions and other luck, he will stumble upon a formation / players in correct positions that will work and click (but then everybody will pull their hair out thinking, this is what we should have been doing from the beginning)
Possibly, herrera, morgan and carrick in midfield, two CBs at CB (even if the LCB is right footed), and Memphis and Mata behind Rooney

 

[Mali_Zeus]

Him stumbling on a formation is such a nice myth.

 

[settembrini]

I have a feeling through injuries / suspensions and other luck, he will stumble upon a formation / players in correct positions that will work and click (but then everybody will pull their hair out thinking, this is what we should have been doing from the beginning)
Possibly, herrera, morgan and carrick in midfield, two CBs at CB (even if the LCB is right footed), and Memphis and Mata behind Rooney

Yep. I feel like the basics of the team you mention are what 90% of this forum wants and yet pre-season is finished without us seeing a starting XI looking anything like that.

 

[DomesticTadpole]

I have a feeling through injuries / suspensions and other luck, he will stumble upon a formation / players in correct positions that will work and click (but then everybody will pull their hair out thinking, this is what we should have been doing from the beginning)
Possibly, herrera, morgan and carrick in midfield, two CBs at CB (even if the LCB is right footed), and Memphis and Mata behind Rooney

You mean stumble on a formation that works, like he did last season.

 

[Hed Zitin]

Given up trying to comprehend him. So many square pegs. I expect last nights starting team will be basically the team baring a change with Carrick and Schneiderlin.

 

[Sylar]

Yep. I feel like the basics of the team you mention are what 90% of this forum wants and yet pre-season is finished without us seeing a starting XI looking anything like that.

I am sad we didnt see a 433 midfield with Morgan, Herrera + 1 (carrick or Basti) unless LVG is so confident in knowing that will work anyway and thus wanted to try something new for back up sakes. Hopefully.

Him stumbling on a formation is such a nice myth.

How is it a myth if its a prediction?

 

[Mali_Zeus]

I am sad we didnt see a 433 midfield with Morgan, Herrera + 1 (carrick or Basti) unless LVG is so confident in knowing that will work anyway and thus wanted to try something new for back up sakes. Hopefully.



How is it a myth if its a prediction?

I mean it happened last season.

 

[Hoof the ball]

I'm not as critical as this place seems to have become since the loss last night. It's as if some people isolate the negatives and don't see the bigger picture of what's trying to be accomplished.

Ok, Blind is not his dad in defence, but it's the idea of what kind of player Blind is, in defence, that represents what he's trying to do. We were heavily pressed in the first half and Blind offered very good support in bringing the ball out and helping us breaking the pressing lines and maintaining possession; we even started quick attacks because of Blind's ability to come out and be natural as a centre midfielder when either Carrick or Schweinsteiger were man-marked. If it's not Blind doing that, it's Rojo. That kind of player. Do I think Blind is the long-term solution to the ball-playing defender? no, but he's the prototype of how we're moving forward. In the end, we'll get the right player to play the role Blind played last night, with similar footballing abilities that he showed; I can see why LvG is reluctant to play both Smalling and Jones together because they present an issue wherein when we're pressed like we were last night, they'll make errors, we'll lose the ball in our own half and struggle to build play and get out of trouble.

 

[Sylar]

I mean it happened last season.

TBF, Di Marias suspension against Arsenal + Carricks return + Shaw not being fit / being poor against Arsenal + Fellaini and Young coming good second half m+ eant he stopped putting Rooney in midfield, stopped putting Di Maria up top, put Herrera back in midfield, Smalling/Jones as CBs + Blind at LB and things clicked.

4-3-3 might be his favoured formation but I think he (and a lot of managers) over complicates things with playing people out of position (which can have varying results)

 

[Flying_Heckfish]

We can play the 4-3-3 point forward or back, pretty much, with the players we have now, though, which we couldn't last season. So his reluctance to play it signals to me that he is happy with it, rather than a move to a new system.

He's basically making all the moves in the transfer market to provide a perfect squad for the 4-3-3 system.

 

[R'hllor]

I rather see < in midfield then >,> is such a bs,rather see us in 4-1-4-1(4-3-3) then 4-4-1-1 (4-2-3-1),2 holding MFs is to much for my taste.

 

[Hoof the ball]

two holding midfielders is great. It's not some arbitrary thing that's done for the sake of it. If you only have one holding midfielder the the opposition knows that this person is the key to collecting it from the defenders and building the attack. The opposition can afford to pressure one holding midfielder without losing shape; when you have two holding midfielder's and a CB who can pass, if one CM is marked, the other one drops and collects, and vice versa; if both are marked, then there's obviously space for the CB to run forward into and start the move (as we saw last night, successfully).

This deals with the issue we have had for so long about being pressed and not being able to deal with it. In my opinion, in the end, the best way to win a game is superiority in midfield and overrunning it in numbers.

 

[Distracted Steward]

If someone wouldn't mind throwing me a bone:

What were Herrera's common position and instructions at Athletic Bilbao? What changes did he make for van Gaal that he alluded to in that interview late last season?

 

[Rozay]

Playing a centre-half because he is left-footed is idiotic in my opinion. Again, football did not start with Van Gaal, and many, many a successful partnership had x2 right-footers, including our best ever (probably).

 

[Annahnomoss]

Defensively I think we've had issues with intelligent forwards who dropped deep. Suarez and Pedro both dropped very deep once they realized they were so tightly marked by our centre backs and Zlatan did it as well. Suddenly the opposition had four players in the midfield against our two central midfielders and both PSG and Barcelona looked very much in control of the games.

It also created space for them that we now have our centre backs tracking their player so aggressively even when they drop down.

It will be interesting to see how it works in the Premier League though as there aren't many forwards capable of pulling that off too well and then it may just be negative for them.

Offensively we've looked pretty weak to say the least, our possession play has been toothless with that 4-4-2 and Depay doesn't offer the same sort of playmaking and control that Mata/Herrera would do in that central role. While Young and Mata out wide aren't dribblers and rarely beat their men which means they have to wait for their full back to overlap even if they have a great 1 vs 1 opportunity.

We won't be one of the best clubs in the world if we can't even take advantage of the times we find our wingers in a 1 vs 1 situation. With Messi/Hazard/Sanchez/Neymar/Robben/Ribery/Silva you know they will at least challenge the defender and force a reaction and cause some panic to the opponents.

Young had a strong finish to last season because he started challenge his full backs even if he wouldn't make it clean through many times out of 10 it is enough to unsettle the defense and create space for others.

 

[Hoof the ball]

Playing a centre-half because he is left-footed is idiotic in my opinion. Again, football did not start with Van Gaal, and many, many a successful partnership had x2 right-footers, including our best ever (probably).

Why idiotic? for example, playing a left footed player at right-centre back would be limiting

 

[DomesticTadpole]

So we are saying that his tactics are double dutch.Sigh!

 

[DevilRed]

It really does look like we will end up fecking about with our formation for another 3-5 matches and end up dropping more points than we should.

Silly considering how we started looking better in a 4-3-3 towards the end of last season. Yes, we lacked cutting edge, but at least we were dominating most of our matches.

 

[JPRouve]

If someone wouldn't mind throwing me a bone:

What were Herrera's common position and instructions at Athletic Bilbao? What changes did he make for van Gaal that he alluded to in that interview late last season?

He was going for the killer ball as much as possible, he was a very direct player.

 

[Rozay]

Why idiotic? for example, playing a left footed player at right-centre back would be limiting

No it wouldn't, no more than playing a right footer at left centre half.

At the end of the day, they are still playing in the 'centre' of the pitch anyway. I have never seen an issue raised with two right-footed centre midfielders, or two right-footed centre-forwards. Likewise, if Louis Van Gaal was not a manager, there would be no such debate about central defence either.

It becomes 'idiotic' when it leads to our best two centre-halves being unable to be on the pitch together, in response to your question.

 

[Hoof the ball]

Ok, put yourself in the position of the player. You're not dead centre of the pitch. You're left sided of the centre. You carry the ball on your right foot, and two opponents are chasing you down. Since it's natural to pass with the inside of your foot, and you're on the left, the two natural passing options are left (to LB) and forward (to CM); they're both covered. The RB is free, but you don't have time to adjust your body to hit the pass to the RB with the inside of the foot (you'll lose it), so you either have to use your weaker foot to swing it to the RB, or the outside of your good foot, but you don't trust it so you end up hitting it long forward. I don't know whether you play or not, but watch games where right footed players play left centre back. They make more passing errors than the right footer who gets to play in his natural side. This is not a coincidence.

 

[Cassidy]

Ok, put yourself in the position of the player. You're not dead centre of the pitch. You're left sided of the centre. You carry the ball on your right foot, and two opponents are chasing you down. Since it's natural to pass with the inside of your foot, and you're on the left, the two natural passing options are left (to LB) and forward (to CM); they're both covered. The RB is free, but you don't have time to adjust your body to hit the pass to the RB with the inside of the foot (you'll lose it), so you either have to use your weaker foot to swing it to the RB, or the outside of your good foot, but you don't trust it so you end up hitting it long forward. I don't know whether you play or not, but watch games where right footed players play left centre back. They make more passing errors than the right footer who gets to play in his natural side. This is not a coincidence.

You are right in principle, but in practical terms, there are not a lot of excellent left footed CBs around so you have to make do. What you do not do is purchase/play substandard players at CB just becasue they are left footed.

 

[Empire]

*He's constantly saying that this league is by far the toughest he's ever experienced.

**I'm sure he probably believes that but, other than the top 4, that for some crazy reason we did well against, the opposite was in fact true for most of last season, he played the same tactics game-in game-out and the opposition were lining up to neutralise us knowing exactly what to expect.

He also always refers to his opposition as difficult even when it's league two, "it shall be difficult" and a lot of people refer to their current challenge as the most difficult or important, in the world cup he probably said it is the most difficult challenge of his career. This does not mean he is of the opinion English football is superior to non-english football, he can be of the opinion football is just football wherever it's played and the premier league happens to have stronger opposition in the bottom half than other leagues. (That doesn't mean the type of football played by the English is superior to that played by the dutch, spanish, italians or brazilians).

As an example of him exploiting weakness of the opposition, he said of Burnley he is not surprised by the result (Burnley if you remember had the better of us but we scored more than they) because he practiced set pieces prior to the game, we scored twice from set plays, it also was not a coincidence Burnley had conceded more goals from corners than any other premier league team until that point.

That is an example of identifying a weakness in the opposition and practicing to exploit it before the match, he also said of Liverpool at anfield that we beat them at their own game, they didn't expect United to press and win the ball back so quickly. We also trained to counter their high intensity approach, their players weren't bad, they just couldn't get close to the ball.

He has said these sorts of things quite a bit in press conferences, of Fellaini he would use him against the opposition full back if that full back was weak in the air and Young always knew that's where he would be.

It was no different to the netherlands, he said he had a plan to neutralise Messi for example, his strategy against Spain he said they practiced for two weeks, RVP afterwards said the match went exactly how Louis van Gaal predicted it.

He does look to exploit opposition weaknesses, I can't accuse him of lying when he says that because it's evident in the match.

 

[Adnan]

 

[Mali_Zeus]

Not going to go well here.

 

[Hoof the ball]

You are right in principle, but in practical terms, there are not a lot of excellent left footed CBs around so you have to make do. What you do not do is purchase/play substandard players at CB just becasue they are left footed.

I agree, there aren't a lot of them, and no I don't think we should play sub-standard players at CB. Barca are a great example of two right-footed centre-halves, but the difference is that Mascherano is supremely confident using his left accurately bringing the ball out under pressure. Whilst we may not find the left-footed player we want, the hope is we find the right-footed player who is at least comfortable enough using his left when under pressure. But at the end of the day, there's no way around it, our system needs good footballers at the back, and no matter how good at defending individuals get, we will always be limited by how good our defenders can play with the ball or not.

 

[Annahnomoss]

Seems more like he think he played that already?

"That the midfielder is [sometimes] in front of the striker is not bad because I think you do need variation in your attack," said van Gaal, in a press conference following the final tour match against PSG.

"I like that and I ask for that, especially from Memphis. It can also be Carrick or Schweinsteiger or Schneiderlin once in a while but mostly Memphis. It depends on our opponents."

So basically it will mostly be Memphis as the AM?

 

[Kag]

Not going to go well here.

What he's currently putting out is what he considers to be 433. Nothing has changed.

 

[SambaBoy]

Seems more like he think he played that already?

"That the midfielder is [sometimes] in front of the striker is not bad because I think you do need variation in your attack," said van Gaal, in a press conference following the final tour match against PSG.
in
"I like that and I ask for that, especially from Memphis. It can also be Carrick or Schweinsteiger or Schneiderlin once in a while but mostly Memphis. It depends on our opponents."

So basically it will mostly be Memphis as the AM?

No mention of Mata or Januzaj natural 10's or even Herrera? Perreira? It seems strange to mention Carrick/Schweinsteiger/Schneiderlin in reference to a position that seems like it will be the number 10. with the way he mentions Depay.

 

[Physiocrat]

So basically it will mostly be Memphis as the AM?

If he is we really need another winger and Schweinsteiger to play to add some nous further forward, assuming Herrera is benched

 

[bosnian_red]

Seems more like he think he played that already?

"That the midfielder is [sometimes] in front of the striker is not bad because I think you do need variation in your attack," said van Gaal, in a press conference following the final tour match against PSG.

"I like that and I ask for that, especially from Memphis. It can also be Carrick or Schweinsteiger or Schneiderlin once in a while but mostly Memphis. It depends on our opponents."

So basically it will mostly be Memphis as the AM?

Yeah, he's just calling a 4-3-3 and a 4-2-3-1 both 4-3-3's, just the midfield triangle pointing different ways.

 

[Von Mistelroum]

So he wants to play the 4-3-3 in the league then? That's great news if true. Now I'd like to hear that he was just experimenting with all the square pegs in round holes on tour too!

With just one more signing we could have a really excellent 4-3-3 which would have creativity and seriously compete for a top 2-3 spot.

 

[Annahnomoss]

No mention of Mata or Januzaj natural 10's or even Herrera? Perreira? It seems strange to mention Carrick/Schweinsteiger/Schneiderlin in reference to a position that seems like it will be the number 10. with the way he mentions Depay.

Very odd indeed. Maybe he meant that during a game Memphis should be more or less the only one making runs ahead of the forward? While the CM's can do it "once in a while"?

Then it seems like he has decided on using a midfield of Schneiderlin/Schweinsteiger/Carrick with Depay as the attacking midfielder? Hard to decipher his interviews.