That's fine. On another day we could have won the game easily, on the evidence of 80% of our home games that small teams set up in this exact way, it's safe to say the the assumption carries weight.
Louis van Gaal's tactics
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That's fine. On another day we could have won the game easily, on the evidence of 80% of our home games that small teams set up in this exact way, it's safe to say the the assumption carries weight.
Yes, I agree that on another day we could've won but I hope that you do understand my logic that those 3-4 chances are just not good enough and we haven't really dominated WBA, right? Not asking anybody to agree with me.
Teams getting one chance has been enough to beat us. Yes we should be getting more chances on target, that is more the point. That is what should be looked at, why they can't test the goalies properly and seem slow getting to any loose balls.
So, our forwards are the same quality as theirs? I for one think its the flanks that are bad. We dont have penetration, decisive passes etc. Our forwards are good enough if you supply them with decent balls. Also, no one-twos and no runners from midfield. Leave the forwards alone.
Surely if you give the forwards chances they should at least put one in the net. Yes I agree the flanks are awful. The midfield can run into the box, but all the changes didn't help there. Surely Mr. Rooney playing in midfield and is a forward could have made the effort to get into the box?
I am starting to suspect something. I have the feeling our players are better than what we see. I think they are pressured to play a certain way which kills their creativity. Them trying to play the system to the point makes them afraid to try things. Yes, you can fail a dribble or a funky pass etc. but when it comes together it is what opens defenses up.
I suspect LvG doesn't allow the players to enjoy their football. They are too focused on keeping possession and trying something interesting risks loosing the ball. I am all up for dominating matches but at least give 2 players freedom to do whatever they want so in otherwise rigid system you have creative outlets that can produce magic.
I suspect LvG doesn't allow the players to enjoy their football. They are too focused on keeping possession and trying something interesting risks loosing the ball. I am all up for dominating matches but at least give 2 players freedom to do whatever they want so in otherwise rigid system you have creative outlets that can produce magic.
It was Moyes' fault and now it's Van gaal' fault. Someday the players will have to take some responsibility.
There is sometimes a tendency to treat managers and players like everyday folk but they are paid millions and live in comfort only to work in a field we all love. They have to be criticised and held to a higher standard of performance or the moral compass will swing to the ridiculous. LVG's bluster given his performance should be unacceptable at anytime.
From what we were led to believe Van Gaal would do to this team when he first came, he's failed to deliver thus far.
Yes we will be top 4, but for the money we spend, and the wages we pay, that is the bare minimum.
Yes we will be top 4, but for the money we spend, and the wages we pay, that is the bare minimum.
I think while van Gaal's lack of tactical depth is showing some signs of late (not knowing how to open up compact defenses), I don't think enough pressure is being put on the players. I'm all for standing by the players and supporting them, but the effort shown and the urgency that I've seen on the field these past few games has been pathetic - especially yesterday and against Everton. We saw it numerous times last season under Moyes, we have too many passengers in this squad and not enough players that will step up and change the game.
I recognize that we lost by small margins yesterday, had terrible luck, and would have won on most days, but I haven't seen enough from the players to suggest that they are giving their all. Maybe it has to do with the instructions they are being given from van Gaal, I don't know, but when you get absolutely trounced by Everton 3-0 and can't even get a decent result at home against fecking West Brom the following week it makes me question how much the players actually give a shit.
Maybe I'm being over-critical and silly, but 0 goals in 3 games - two of which playing against inferior opponents - is simply ridiculous.
I recognize that we lost by small margins yesterday, had terrible luck, and would have won on most days, but I haven't seen enough from the players to suggest that they are giving their all. Maybe it has to do with the instructions they are being given from van Gaal, I don't know, but when you get absolutely trounced by Everton 3-0 and can't even get a decent result at home against fecking West Brom the following week it makes me question how much the players actually give a shit.
Maybe I'm being over-critical and silly, but 0 goals in 3 games - two of which playing against inferior opponents - is simply ridiculous.
Though I agree, there is still the issue of player attitudes. If they are not paid based on performance where is the motivation to put in that extra bit of effort.
On very few occasions have I felt we did not have the team on the park to beat the opposition. However, within the first 10-15 minutes, I can also see the players who are not going to have a good game. The way they just stroll about, get beat in every 60-40 tackle in their favor and so on.
In each game I have seen LVG make an effort to change, even yesterday. I didn't really see anything wrong with the changes, in style and tactics. Fellani was contributing sweet FA in midfield, so why not try him in attack. When ADM came on, he put in some good and bad crosses. However, there was not one attacker that made an effort to get on to the good crosses.
We are all amateur managers/coaches but, sometimes the players need to take the brunt of the blame. Pretty sure this is a mindset thing in that Rooney & co think the CL spot is already won. We can blame LVG, but I am quite sure he wanted 2nd.
That's nonsense. We're so much further than last July. It is still an up and down but the main problem now is not LVG but the players
I agree with you but I did include the players in my general comment it's just that this thread was about LVG's tactics.
I also agree about our player's attitude in the first ten minutes of each half. The opposition have clocked that the concentration level is down and then strike. The first ten minutes of the second half was crazy yesterday, it was more like a stroll in the park. When the opposition have scored our lot all look around to blame someone. Then in the last ten minutes it suddenly dawns on them and it turns into frantic haste.
I wish LVG would make more changes but his reputation is for favourites and sticking to a system. For example leaving Fellaini in position for the last three games, all losses, has been a mistake. He needed to be changed after Chelsea because he'd been exposed. Now we face either a radical change or the same again, at this point of the season that's crazy, there has to be another plan.
I also agree with your motivation comment. IMO play the kids because ADM, the Falcon and RVP don't look like scoring or making things happen. Get the kids going and let them batter solid defences, at least there might be some enthusiasm. ADM yesterday gave up before he even tried.
We pay higher wages than standard, let's pluck the random figure of say 25%.
Instead of doing this, we should pay the standard and have the rest paid in performance bonuses, as this seems to be the greatest motivator for players, these days.
Instead of doing this, we should pay the standard and have the rest paid in performance bonuses, as this seems to be the greatest motivator for players, these days.
We are a hopeless possession based team and have been for pretty much the majority of the season. If you can't beat WBA at your own ground with 80% of the ball then it's time to pack it in and try something else.
The players looked absolutely clueless once again when they have come up against a defence that doesn't leave spaces, they seem to think passing sideways will open them up ffs.
The players looked absolutely clueless once again when they have come up against a defence that doesn't leave spaces, they seem to think passing sideways will open them up ffs.
It does work if you move it quickly and have players making runs at the same time to create gaps in the channels.
Though it has been quite evident that pretty much none of our players (bar RvP yesterday) can be arsed to make any sort of runs off of the ball, so the passing becomes pointless.
The one who usually moves around was playing DM. Rooney and Co. Should have been doing that. I was looking at the miles covered by the players and Blind was very low for him. You would expect him to be bombing up his side of the pitch. I would not like to think some weren't putting the effort in. Maybe they just didn't want to make a mistake and were worried about the defensive side. The way McNair gave away that free kick, they were right to be worried.
Sort of related but I've been thinking for a while that there is a massive disparity between wage and performance in our squad.
https://www.redcafe.net/match-day/
Look at our highest rated players. The only really big earner making the top 8 is Mata at #6. Young and Carrick must be on good amounts but the rest of that list seem like they will be on salaries in the tens, not hundreds, of thousands. You would think that Rooney, RvP, Falcao and Di Maria must be the four highest paid players at the club and none of them seem to have impressed the fans this season.
It's interesting imo.
Seems we have no plan B once carrick gets injured, and once again trying to fit in RVP and Rooney its back to square 1 pre-spurs. There was the question, what would VG do once RVP was fit, try and fit in both RVP and Rooney which clearly does not work
I don't think Blind looked fully fit. He's normally far more energetic. Rooney didn't look that fit either and might have been feeling the effects of that knock at Goodison. Could be that he chose to play through the pain because we had no one else to play in midfield. Just my own opinion and I may be wrong but the two of them looked out of sorts.
If Shaw was healthy and playing LB yesterday, then Blind would have been slotted where Herrera was. Herrera would have been in his natural spot, and Rooney would have been up top with RvP on the bench. I guarantee we would have played better had that been the case.
Having Shaw and especially Carrick injured really forces us to make too many changes and puts players in positions they are not comfortable with. Thus, van Gaal has the team play more conservative in order to avoid mistakes because he does not trust them as much in those positions.
Carrick's influence on our forward play and system as a whole cannot be stated enough.
Having Shaw and especially Carrick injured really forces us to make too many changes and puts players in positions they are not comfortable with. Thus, van Gaal has the team play more conservative in order to avoid mistakes because he does not trust them as much in those positions.
Carrick's influence on our forward play and system as a whole cannot be stated enough.
This is a problem that should have been addressed in January ad MSUt be addressed this summer -w e have too many one-off players e.g. Carrick and Herrera (no one else can ably deputise for them in our system). Ander drops deep? WE lose our one-touch and creativity. Carrick out? We lose our pacesetter, best defensive screen and ability to penetrate from deep in one go. We need to get (or promote) 2 CMs (Gundogan and maybe promote Pearson, use Perreira) in addition to a RB, CB & striker.
Or LvG has to change tactics.
Will we ever get a healthy Shaw. I damn well hope so.
So, all the injured players mean nothing to you? The injury to Shaw meant that we couldn't play Blind at DM, what would you have done in this case?
Is it fitness or motivation? A losing slump can quickly set in especially if blame has been thrust on key players shoulders. Several of them don't look as sharp as they did for the Liverpool game.
You and me both.
It would help if Rojo was fit, he's not great but if it means no impact on the midfield he is better than nothing.
Am I the only one who wants to see Fellaini dropped? He's been excellent for us all season, but he's been man-marked out of three games and it's costing our overall play to accommodate him up front at the expense of actual strikers. The only reason we're doing this, it seems, is because LvG doesn't trust Fellaini as a midfielder.
Playing Fellaini as a striker and putting RVP and Rooney in midfield is an embarrassing tactic by the manager, he just doesn't have any ideas.
Yeah what happened to him by the way? Was he injured in training or something? And yeah I agree, even he would have done a job and would have prevented van Gaal from changing the midfield.
I am sure LvG said he got a knock in those 10 seconds he was on the pitch against City. Not sure actually. Might have been Aguerro having a crafty kick on the way past.
I'm still absolutely baffled by that decision. I have no idea what he was trying to accomplish by doing that. It was shithouse tactics at its finest.
It's really really bad and he does it quite often. If a hour goes by and we are not in the lead he puts Fellaini up as the main striker, he did it against West Ham and Swansea recently too.
Blind was injured before the Everton game and Rooney did get a knock near the end. Could be a bit of both I suppose.
The problem is the reliance on wing play and crosses in my opinion, and a clear tactical instruction to do that rather than to pass and move through the middle.
Do you think Mata, Herrera, Rooney, ADM etc all want to constantly and repeatedly pass out wide rather than try 'one twos' and 'give and goes' with each other...? Of course not, they're being told to do this, otherwise it would fecking stop!
I like Van Gaal, but it has to be said that his football has been really, really dull for a good while. Same as it was with Holland in the World Cup.
There's no point in being a possession team if you end every attack passing out wide and crossing into the (obviously packed) box.
You've got to create triangles through the middle in the final third. And with Mata, Herrera, Rooney and ADM we should have absolutely no problem doing that against most teams.
Do you think Mata, Herrera, Rooney, ADM etc all want to constantly and repeatedly pass out wide rather than try 'one twos' and 'give and goes' with each other...? Of course not, they're being told to do this, otherwise it would fecking stop!
I like Van Gaal, but it has to be said that his football has been really, really dull for a good while. Same as it was with Holland in the World Cup.
There's no point in being a possession team if you end every attack passing out wide and crossing into the (obviously packed) box.
You've got to create triangles through the middle in the final third. And with Mata, Herrera, Rooney and ADM we should have absolutely no problem doing that against most teams.
I see people complaining he wants to fit RVP and Rooney. Well he's done it cause Carrick is injured so he played Rooney in the mid and RVP in the attack, he didnt do it just to fit them both.
Its easy to blame it all on LVG but as @pseudo_canadian said it seems some players are not giving their 100 percent too.
Its easy to blame it all on LVG but as @pseudo_canadian said it seems some players are not giving their 100 percent too.
It was an embarrassment.
Tactics that Big Sam would have been proud of.
Just lack of depth for me, not having Carrick or Shaw/Rojo is not only a huge loss due to not having them available but we have to reshuffle the whole team.
Rooney to midfield, Van Persie upfront, Blind to left back, Herrera to defensive mid, it's shambles.
Ultimately leading to no link up play between Herrera/Mata, no creativity in the midfield with Rooney.
Rooney to midfield, Van Persie upfront, Blind to left back, Herrera to defensive mid, it's shambles.
Ultimately leading to no link up play between Herrera/Mata, no creativity in the midfield with Rooney.
The logic is simple. Fellaini is fairly reliable with winning the ball in the air. If he can win the first ball and lay the ball off to RvP on his left or Rooney on his right, you would hope they could do some damage.
The manager always takes precedence over the players. Surely you understand that?
All transfers are a gamble and sometimes it doesn't pay off in the first season and sometimes it doesn't pay off at all even. We'll just have to hope for the best that the players we've bought pay off in the long run.
As it is, it is my opinion that ADM hasn't shown himself to be great in tight spaces. From what I've seen of him thus far, he seems more suitable to counter attacking football rather than possession football. Falcao, I have no idea what to make of him.
Either way, I hope at least ADM turns things around (since we already have a sunk cost of 60 million on him). People change and evolve and he may yet have an Indian summer with us. I hope that to be true. And I believe it's achievable as ADM has not been that bad. He actually still has a decent assist and goal rate.
Actually, in certain games, it has been mentioned by SAF and players that the team deliberately passes backwards to the centerbacks and keeps the ball there in order to draw the opposition players out and create more space to attack again. Not giving away the ball as mentioned earlier, though.
For better or for worse, the whole season is on him. He targeted a CL spot and I sincerely believe he will achieve his target.
I totally agree. We created some chances, but we didn't score them. As a team, we should be scoring more but we aren't. I'm sure the management is analysing the reasons for this and coming up with ways to fix it.
Let's put things in perspective here.
Shots on goal - 26
Shots on target - 9
That's creating chances no matter how you look at it.
West Brom only had 6 shots with 3 shots on target. Two were really good chances which went straight to De Gea and 1 took a horrible deflection into goal.
That's football, I guess.
I see this as karma for our lucky games earlier in the season where it was "miraculous" we didn't lose the game but won it instead. Now that lady luck has evened itself out against us, nobody can say we lucked it to 4th place.
From now on, I'd hope we can move on with the rest of the season. Two more wins to seal that last CL spot. Of course, the problems with cracking tight defences open still needs to be addressed.
First people were complaining we had no plan B. Now they're complaining we have a plan B.
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Find it hard to swallow that LvG says he needs "goal scorers" when he uses our highest goal scorer so far this season in deep mid-field, moves RvP into mid-field to allow a tall bloke to play alone up front, brings on Falcao (when he's done very little to warrant inclusion over a bright young thing left sat on the bench), and when he deemed the chap in the video below surplus to requirements … and note, this volley was scored this weekend without really achieving the all-important "match rhythm" that we hear so much about:
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