Well, that seems the general consensus everywhere. The majority of the vocal ones against Van Gaal are surprisingly the same ones who were vocal in support of Moyes. I'm just saying that's hypocritical.
- Status
Well, that seems the general consensus everywhere. The majority of the vocal ones against Van Gaal are surprisingly the same ones who were vocal in support of Moyes. I'm just saying that's hypocritical.
We seem to have gone the midway route. You need backups that were near to the Rio/Vidic standard, actually were, not might be. That is where we have gone really wrong. Everyone knew Rio was a great defender when we signed him. Vidic/Evra were more of a punt, but there at there age were nearer the finished article. The first half season they were awful, but the next season they were up and running. Smalling/Jones and Evans still haven't got there. I have more faith in Paddy McNair than them.
I am not against LvG. He has taken on a big job, some of which should have been done by David Moyes, but wasn't. He has basically taken over the SAF side which is now two years older and two years more injury prone. That cannot be fixed in one transfer window.
I was pro giving Moyes a long time...until around March that is when it was just getting worse and worse. With LVG, a proven manager who is praised by loads of top people in the game, I really want to give him a couple more transfer windows to get it right.
I personally didn't like him much at the WC.
He hasn't done badly but, I still don't particularly rate him very highly.
He was playing at left-back in the WC. You shouldn't pre-judge him based on playing a different position to the one we need him for at United. By all accounts, he was excellent in central defence for his club last season.
How do you convince a manager like LVG to not work his remaining defenders hard in training because of injuries to other players and at the same time produce good results on the pitch? He's between a rock and a hard place there.
I'm not blaming him...where did I say that? I'm just curious as to why are injury list so so dam high a lot of the time. Perhaps I'm wrong...Arsenal seem to have a lot to. Maybe it is just the modern game, I don't know.
Everyone thinks their own club has uniquely bad injury problems. Apart from Chelsea fans since Mourinho took over. That cnut has blatantly sold his soul to the devil.
I never said you were blaming him, sorry if it came off like that. I was just stating how difficult it must be for him with the injuries to key defensive players, not running what he has into the ground AND still needing to produce proper results on the pitch.
No, you're right actually. I mean he can't just ease up totally for fear of injury, otherwise you would never get across the "philosophy" !!
Why doesn't anyone like the guy?
You know...I actually really do like the guy, and being honest, wanted him to take over from Moyes. I mean people were saying he wasn't United, wasn't right for the club, would only stay a few years, but nor was Moyes right for the club...and if you want an eccentric..then LVG doesn't come better than that...also, he won't be at the club for long either, he's already stated this is his last job...
One thing I've been thinking about with regards to the spending and lack of proper centre backs signed. Jones, Evans and smalling are all individually talented, we all know that. They've shown good form at one point, its just injuries have held them back. Same with Rafael. Van Gaal brought in one centre back in rojo, and normally 4 centre backs should be enough. Van Gaal probably thought he'd put faith in the defenders we had, let them develop and had confidence that they could get over their injuries for the most part. He's well within his right to believe that, he doesn't know what we did before and why they got injured, but even then it was never as bad as now.
Think he'll definitely bring in a new center back in the next window, and has probably accepted that the injuries are out of his hands now, but you can't criticise him too much for putting faith in the defenders we had to get over the injuries. If they do, we'd be fine IMO. I've given up on them at this point though. With mourinho you always see he has physically strong players, players who stay fit. Nothing to do with coaching I think, just all to do with the type of players they have. We brought in way too many injury prone players over the years, same with arsenal, and its costing us and requires us to do a huge revamp of the whole defensive unit.
Think he'll definitely bring in a new center back in the next window, and has probably accepted that the injuries are out of his hands now, but you can't criticise him too much for putting faith in the defenders we had to get over the injuries. If they do, we'd be fine IMO. I've given up on them at this point though. With mourinho you always see he has physically strong players, players who stay fit. Nothing to do with coaching I think, just all to do with the type of players they have. We brought in way too many injury prone players over the years, same with arsenal, and its costing us and requires us to do a huge revamp of the whole defensive unit.
The problem with Mou is the dull football his teams play.
yeah, but they win...and we were pretty dull during our last title win
Well, would you like that every season? I want trophies and exciting football, like most part of the Fergie era.
Not all of his teams are dull. He adapts to each situation and makes the best of what he has, in addition to being set up well to focus on the oppositions strengths and weaknesses. His Inter team were quite boring in certain league games, especially away from home but they were great to watch in some home games, especially the big ones like the game he won 4-0 vs AC Milan and others. I also thought his Inter team were good to watch in the CL. His teams performances in the games at Stamford Bridge vs Chelsea and the first leg at home against Barca were great displays both tactically and to watch from a neutral perspective. His Madrid team were also great to watch in his first two seasons and in parts of his final season and racked up lots of heavy score-lines both in the league and the CL.
The defense that was left. For Ferguson that defence worked but it was on the wane. Moyes did nothing to alter it.
I think his Real Madrid team was dull to see, only great against weak La Liga teams but not evolved its gameplay during the three seasons he was there. I admit he know how to approach any football match with a plan that is likely to give him the three points, but I expect a more fluid and exciting style from Manchester United. Chelsea is his place, I don't get why people want him in here.
I think Madrid were good to watch in some of the big games. I though the 3-1 win vs Barca in the Copa semi in 2013 was good to watch as were the wins over AC Milan, Tottenham (who were strong that year and beat both Inter and AC Milan) and the first half of the second leg against Bayern Munich. There were some other games too but he has a tendency to shut up shop in the big games once his team have scored and sometimes it works and other times it costs him. I think the best recent example was the game vs United where Chelsea sat back, closed up and tried to see out the game. Imo that was a mistake as he should have kept pushing for another goal but he just invited United to attack and allowed them to grow in confidence and in the end they equalised. He does not like to take risks if he does not have to apart from a few exceptions.
Nothing has changed. Do you see me calling for Van Gaal's head? I'm criticising him for some things he's done and saying he must do better if we're to make any impression this season. Hopefully he will.
I may be mistaken, but didn't you argue with anyone who criticized Moyes?
Van Gaal is vastly more experienced than Moyes and you would expect much more from him than someone who's finding his feet managing his first big club. He's made some pretty disappointing errors for one so experienced, not least the disastrous 3-5-2 experiment. That doesn't mean he won't come good eventually, but we need to see more from him and soon.
I have no idea how you deduced that from my post.
I argued with those who wanted him sacked more or less straight away. I thought he should be given time, as I think Van Gaal should be given time. That doesn't mean I'm happy with his performance so far, given the level of his experience in managing top clubs.
Louis van Gaal said he needed time to adapt to the premier league, you say he is experienced but actually this is the first time he is managing here and he predicted the first 3 months would be a struggle saying this after an excellent pre-season. I don't think it's unreasonable to give him until after the Arsenal game before I start judging the team, from that point forth I expect very good results.
Fair enough, but my point was that the disastrous 3-5-2 experiment was a mistake that had nothing to do with adapting to the English game. As an experienced manager he needed to hit the ground running and lay down a marker but he failed completely in that respect. That's not to say things won't improve but they need to improve soon irrespective of the difficulties we're experiencing currently.
I'll wait until the halfway stage before drawing any conclusions but I'm not desperately impressed by his efforts so far.
Statistics surface every once in a while that back up our claims to be fair. Not least in 2012 when City won the league on GD with the fewest injuries whilst we suffered the most.
United and Arsenal have horrendous records compared to City and Chelsea.
That's not down to luck, imo.
No. One year can be, but year after year - no. Thing is, we've been through it now with three different managers and three different coaching teams. We've now even changed fitness coaches, apparently quite early in the summer. So what's left? Problems with choosing the right transfer targets, or just not getting rid of the injury prone players quickly enough?
Yep, almost completely down to the players we sign. I remember saying it quite a few years ago that our injuries aren't down to bad luck (for the most part), but just having injury prone players. Last few years we've had Rafael, Rio, Vidic, Smalling, Jones, Evans, Fabio and Evra in defence. Evra is the one player there who isn't known to be injury prone. It's ridiculous how we can have so many players at the back, but them all being injury prone. Its nothing to do with bad luck, just having soft players pretty much. It's always defensively that we have our injury crisis' so I wouldn't put it down to training methods either. We get a few knocks here and there in midfield and attack, but nothing compared to the back 4 positions.
Agreed. With certain players, I think you can say it was due to coaching. Don't think Moyes' style helped RvP at all, and though it's still early, this season and the 2 before Moyes he was injury free. But with our defenders, its just due to the individuals. Jones, Evans, Smalling and Rafael have been hopelessly injury prone for years, nothing to do with training methods or luck. It's come to the point where we really should just do a huge makeover, get rid of 2 or 3 of those 4 and bring in reliable players and keep them as cover in case they come through their injuries.
I agree. I'd hope Van Gaal gets to the route of the problem whatever it is.
To be perfectly honest, yes, that's what I have grown to think after watching United's rather helpless attempts of becoming a convincing possession team. It's not that LvG is a bad coach, and neither that there is no talent. But I think it is the wrong direction for United.
If you look at it completely unbiased, then there are two real super-powers employing possession football: Barca and Bayern (wrong order at the moment, probably). Any other team who is trying to be copy that kind of football so far has failed miserable when they face the original, e.g. City or Arsenal. They are always getting a floor whipping when they face Barca or Bayern.
Don't get me wrong: I'm not advocating the Mourinho style of football. Which I hate. But it shows there is always a way even against possession football.
United's original style, which was skill, power, and pace, was as good and even better than possession football. But now United is apparently trying to copy Barca and Bayern. To me that's like selling the soul of the club. And it won't even work on the highest CL level. Just ask City if you don't believe me.
Hence, me question would be: Do you want to a copy of somebody else, and most likely never achieve that level. Or shouldn’t you rather stick with what has made you great and famous?
And I really believe that with Rooney, RvP, and Di Maria, there is a wonderful core to start getting back to United’s roots. Just fix the bloody defence.
Last edited:
No, Louis van Gaal tends to always struggle in the beginning, he made no secret of this to the fans and I am sure he made no secret of this to the board. His method takes time and he had no intention of sacrificing the way he does things, his methods have brought success elsewhere and it is this that the board have backed.
The chief executive of FC Bayern, Karl-Heinz Rummenigge:
That time is about 3 or 4 months before the team begins to perform his methods and then they are expected to only get better. If we wanted a manager that would hit the ground running in the premier league then Louis van Gaal was never going to be the man for his attacking philosophy is risky and until the midfield and offence move the ball around swiftly and accurately the defence are vulnerable because they will lose it and get hit on the counter.
As for the 3-5-2, he went into the world cup using a formation that took a team expected to be eliminated in the group stages to the semi-finals only to lose on penalties. When it became apparent that formation was not working he ditched it but one can understand the experiment, but still I'm not even convinced he wanted to play that, I think the plan was always 4-1-2-1-2 but until Carrick was fit or he made a signing this wasn't possible, this 4-1-2-1-2 is not that much different than the 3-5-2.
Louis van Gaal wants to hit quickly during the transition from defence to attack (i.e. the counter), he uses possession as a defensive move, that is to say when his team is ahead and it plays risky, attacking football to get ahead, they will then keep the ball and tire the opposition out.
Louis van Gaal is certainly not copying Guardiola (assuming that's what you are implying). The world cup also showed his adaptability in that he can play counter attacking football, when it is necessary then he will do it.
"United's original style, which was skill, power, and pace, was as good and even better than possession football."
Ah, a WUM, sorry I did not realise.
No, I'm not a WUM. I just think he has the wrong club, and the wrong players for that system. Especially now after Di Maria has arrived. Maybe Di Maria was not his choice, just a panic move by the club. Nevertheless, do you want to play possession football with a rocket like him? Really?
United's style is what is known to be because Fergie was our manager for 26 years. We aren't copying Barca or Bayern, Van Gaal is making us more possession based like he's done everywhere he's been. They had the same doubts at Bayern when he changed the style but here they are now. Its just the very start of the season, so don't you think its a bit soon to say it hasn't worked? Also how can you say that Arsenal is copying it? You can say that about any team who uses a new brand of style. One team is copying these guys, another team copying another style. Pretty stupid thing to say really, its not anyone copying anyone, its just someone choosing to play a certain way. There's no one style better then another, it's a matter of preference.
Also how can you say it hasn't worked in Europe? Van Gaal took Bayern to the champions league final when they were still pretty weak in 2010. They were nowhere near the dominant force they are now, but Van Gaal was just starting to change their style to a possession based one. Sure City haven't done great in Europe, but that's nothing to do with their style, its just being naive and not approaching it with the right attitude. Arsenal got to the final in 2006 but other then that, they just aren't good enough, again, nothing due to their style. They haven't had a winning mentality for many years now.
There are some teams who are counter attacking sides, some are possession sides. Its just how it is. Some managers like having more control of the whole game. Who's to say which style is "better"? Nothing gets achieved in a few months, it takes time to change the style of play and to perfect it.
Di Maria is perfect for that style of play, at least when played in the middle. He's the main source of creativity, the one who makes everything come alive and injects the burst of pace. How the hell was he a panic move by the club? He's the perfect player for our system and exactly the type we needed to make the attack effective.
- Status