Louis van Gaal | Manchester United manager

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Adebesi said:
Herrera borderline. Shaw though? That much money for a defender is not low profile.
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The money was absurd but his profile up until that point would be similar to Smalling. Talented young English defender getting a lot of plaudits for his performances at one of the league's smaller clubs. If anything, he'd be a lower profile player than the likes of Evra and Park who had already excelled in the Champion's League.

Still can't quite believe he cost more than the whole of City's back four on Sunday added together!
 
Profile stuff aside, I do agree that it's been far too long since we picked up a top class player like Vidic, Park or Evra at a bargain price. In fact, they're probably the most recent examples. Was kind of hoping Van Gaal would get some Dutch mates on the blower to uncover some Eriedivisie un-polished gems. Hopefully that's all ahead of us. If we assume Hererra and Shaw were scouted before Van Gaal signed, the other players all seem a little bit "obvious" to me. Either had a good world cup or massively high profile players extremely highly rated by everyone.
 
togg said:
To be fair..he didn't do too badly doing it that way....
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Well i guess it's a matter of opinion. I personally believe it's always been the way of the club to buy this way. Look at Hernandez, Vidic, Evra, back to Djemba-Djemba, Kleberson, Cantona, Schmeichel, Sharpe, Bruce...

Obviously some work better than others as you can see. We always have the odd splurge, Andy Cole, Keane, Berbatov etc. But the main philosophy (sorry) remains.

In recent years however, you could argue that certain players have not yet stepped up, contributing to where we find ourselves today.
 
Just out of interest, looking around at other clubs, who else has done similar since we bought Vidic and Evra?
City got Kompany and Zabaleta.
 
Pogue Mahone said:
Profile stuff aside, I do agree that it's been far too long since we picked up a top class player like Vidic, Park or Evra at a bargain price. In fact, they're probably the most recent examples.
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Cheech was a good buy. But for every Van Der Sar, there's an Owen. That's the risk you run i suppose with this so called value policy.
 
Blind could prove to be a bargain at £14m. He isnt top class yet but he is only 24 and in a new league. He could develop into a really class player for us. Even if he doesnt he is the best value of our summer signings for me.
 
Pogue Mahone said:
That's just completely wrong. There's no way you can talk about any of Vidic, Park or Evra as a "low profile signing" but if you do, then Blind, Rojo, Hererra and Shaw all belong in the same category. And they were all signed this summer!
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Low profile is the wrong term. Maybe low risk is the right term in that signing a player who if it doesn't work out then we can still get a good percentage of our money back for?
 
Speak said:
Just out of interest, looking around at other clubs, who else has done similar since we bought Vidic and Evra?
City got Kompany and Zabaleta.
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Ivanovich was a bargain imo. 9m was it?

Cech was also a good one, think he was around 7m. For all their money, Chelsea and City also know a bargain when they see one.
 
Pogue Mahone said:
Profile stuff aside, I do agree that it's been far too long since we picked up a top class player like Vidic, Park or Evra at a bargain price. In fact, they're probably the most recent examples. Was kind of hoping Van Gaal would get some Dutch mates on the blower to uncover some Eriedivisie un-polished gems. Hopefully that's all ahead of us. If we assume Hererra and Shaw were scouted before Van Gaal signed, the other players all seem a little bit "obvious" to me. Either had a good world cup or massively high profile players extremely highly rated by everyone.
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Looks like Koeman has got ahead in that department :D
 
Adebesi said:
Blind could prove to be a bargain at £14m. He isnt top class yet but he is only 24 and in a new league. He could develop into a really class player for us. Even if he doesnt he is the best value of our summer signings for me.
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For me Blind has been the most consistent of the players brought in. He's doing the job he's been asked to do very well. I realise G. Neville wants him to thread those passes through more often, but then more often than not you lose possession and invite teams to break....and with our defense that is just not a good idea!
 
2 Man Midfield said:
Ivanovich was a bargain imo. 9m was it?

Cech was also a good one, think he was around 7m. For all their money, Chelsea and City also know a bargain when they see one.
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Yeah, Ivanovic is a great one. Very similar signing to Vidic too. Both in January from Serbia. Ivanovic at 23, Vidic at 24.
 
Speak said:
Just out of interest, looking around at other clubs, who else has done similar since we bought Vidic and Evra?
City got Kompany and Zabaleta.
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That Luis Filipe guy looks like good business for Chelsea. Plus their fullback whose name I can't spell. Ivanovic too. Even Cahill.

Cazorla's been very useful for Arsenal. Mertesacker's been good and didn't cost much.

Coutinho and Sturridge have been great for Liverpool.

Feck it, there's loads of examples when you think about it. Compared to the business of most of the big clubs in England, our signings have varied between mediocre and shite, going back several years now. Fergie's an absolute fecking genius for cobbling together our most recent title-winning team with the squad of players he handed over to Moyes. Of course, this also means his genius didn't extend to his transfers. Not for the last 5 or so years of his reign anyway.
 
Pogue Mahone said:
That Luis Filipe guy looks like good business for Chelsea. Plus their fullback whose name I can't spell. Ivanovic too. Even Cahill.

Cazorla's been very useful for Arsenal. Mertesacker's been good and didn't cost much.

Coutinho and Sturridge have been great for Liverpool.

Feck it, there's loads of examples when you think about it. Compared to the business of most of the big clubs in England, our signings have varied between mediocre and shite, going back several years now. Fergie's an absolute fecking genius for cobbling together our most recent title-winning team with the squad of players he handed over to Moyes.
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Fergie was worth ten points a season as a manager....
 
Speak said:
Yeah, Ivanovic is a great one. Very similar signing to Vidic too. Both in January from Serbia. Ivanovic at 23, Vidic at 24.
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From Russia, they were playing in Russia, and that's the key nowadays there is money in those 'little' leagues purchasing a talented player on the cheap is more and more complicated.
 
Pogue Mahone said:
That Luis Filipe guy looks like good business for Chelsea. Plus their fullback whose name I can't spell. Ivanovic too. Even Cahill.

Cazorla's been very useful for Arsenal. Mertesacker's been good and didn't cost much.

Coutinho and Sturridge have been great for Liverpool.

Feck it, there's loads of examples when you think about it. Compared to the business of most of the big clubs in England, our signings have varied between mediocre and shite, going back several years now. Fergie's an absolute fecking genius for cobbling together our most recent title-winning team with the squad of players he handed over to Moyes.
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Yeah, some good examples, though I'd argue Cazrola and Mertersaker fit more into the "They got them for how much (or how little)?" group, as they were well known - a bit like van Der Vaart.

Modric is another one though. Of all the realistic signings I wish we'd gone that extra mile for in recent years, Modric is top of the list. Can't remember how much Tottenham paid. Ivanovic would have been cracking too.
 
JPRouve said:
From Russia, they were playing in Russia, and that's the key nowadays there is money in those 'little' leagues purchasing a talented player on the cheap is more and more complicated.
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Oops, yeah Russia. Sorry.
 
Koscielney, Cabaye, Cahill

Players were out there for good prices. They've developed into good, some great players over time through match experience, coaching and good management but they had the natural talent to be trusted to come and sign in the first place.

We on the other hand have bought a lot of players but how many of them have developed and became better players having joined United? Some players are entering their 4th / 5th seasons and still we are holding onto their potential. Something is wrong with our policy.
 
Boycott said:
Koscielney, Cabaye, Cahill

Players were out there for good prices. They've developed into good, some great players over time through match experience, coaching and good management but they had the natural talent to be trusted to come and sign in the first place.

We on the other hand have bought a lot of players but how many of them have developed and became better players having joined United? Some players are entering their 4th / 5th seasons and still we are holding onto their potential. Something is wrong with our policy.
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You wonder if we should be buying players at nearly full potential rather than the young end of the market, Jones etc with unrealised potential who never reach it. I would prefer to buy players of 24 upwards with a good number of games under their belt. So even if they aren't world class they will still be darn good for us.
 
Pogue Mahone said:
I'm not sure I agree with Benatia being the only central defender in the whole of Europe who was available and good enough to improve us. Southampton don't seem to be missing Lovren at all, for example, with Alderweireld looking very accomplished. Surely there are similar examples from other major European leagues?
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Totally agree. I'm not sure why there's this notion of exclusivity regarding CBs. They don't need to be world class, just capable, sensible and well organised.

The key phrase is 'good enough to improve us', that's all we needed to do with our CBs.

I've said it before, but I firmly believe that if we'd brought in a couple of well versed PL warhorse CBs - Shawcross and Vlaar for example - we'd be sat at least third right now.

Vlaar's not pretty but he understands Van Gaal's high line and he ran Holland's miserly defence throughout the entire World Cup. Considering the money we spent in the Summer it baffles me that we didn't bring in a 'safe pair of hands' at CB, someone who has proven to understand a high line and who also understands the PL.
 
With defenders more than other positions individual quality is less important than superior organisation and understanding. And a prerequisite for that is for 4 people to stay fit for long enough to string a run of games together.
 
Adebesi said:
With defenders more than other positions individual quality is less important than superior organisation and understanding. And a prerequisite for that is for 4 people to stay fit for long enough to string a run of games together.
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As you say usable legs and even half a brain might be useful.
 
I'd take any defender, who is the opposite of Phil Jones and Rojo, right now to be honest.

Meaning, they don't get injured when you look at them, have a bloody brain and some sort of positional awareness
 
DomesticTadpole said:
You wonder if we should be buying players at nearly full potential rather than the young end of the market, Jones etc with unrealised potential who never reach it. I would prefer to buy players of 24 upwards with a good number of games under their belt. So even if they aren't world class they will still be darn good for us.
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If we go back to when Rio and Vidic were at their pomp we had those two with Evans and Pique as understudies. Rio and Vidic were the best CB partnership in Europe and it was for this reason we let Pique go because he didn't feel he would develop playing back up, being a loanee. Fair enough. So Evans is the young CB who we plan to phase in a couple of years.

Then we buy Chris Smalling in the hope that he along with Evans will be the future CB pairing. But Rio and Vidic are still going on. The odd game here and there isn't going to help. Nor is playing at RB or in Evans's case LB. They need consistent game time in the CB role to understand their jobs and grow a partnership. Though when they were called upon they did a pretty good job which led to us expecting it to not be much longer before they are regulars.

Then we buy Phil Jones for 16m. A talented defender for sure who has the experience of being in a relegation fight at Blackburn where his defensive skills were put to test. However Rio and Vidic were still around. When Vidic got injured and missed most of the season Evans stood up next to Rio. Jones and Smalling had chances and looked well. But still we haven't sorted out the new blood at CB years after looking ahead for it.

Rio and Vidic both left this summer. Those 3 CBs haven't cemented their position. It's been through poor management of when to throw them in. In the end they had to look out for their senior partner's weaknesses as they were reaching their 30s.That's not going to help them develop. They should have been allowed to build a partnership through time and through developing their own games. Not still being raw and showing signs of naivety.

The names who were mentioned for being bargains for other teams were given the chance to develop their own game but also have the chance to do so while under the pressure of performing. Mentally they build up and it helped them become who they are now (Kompany, Zabaleta, Koscielney, Coleman, Cahill, Ivanovic, Gibbs).

Sir Alex thought learning from those two senior players would help them. But he stuck with it for too long, and Moyes continued with it. We are now seeing the results of not managing that transition properly. Transition isn't just an instant thing. It builds over a period of time. We saw with our quality of football declining that a freshening up needed to happen but it never did. We did the same with our CMs and also our wings. We accepted the bare minimum when we should have looked at developing the next Manchester United team to take charge. Why? Under Fergie it worked. But it was not sustainable because as I said in an earlier post not many players improved or can say they made a vital contribution. Most players did okay when needed but that is not the standard.
 
Boycott said:
If we go back to when Rio and Vidic were at their pomp we had those two with Evans and Pique as understudies. Rio and Vidic were the best CB partnership in Europe and it was for this reason we let Pique go because he didn't feel he would develop playing back up, being a loanee. Fair enough. So Evans is the young CB who we plan to phase in a couple of years.

Then we buy Chris Smalling in the hope that he along with Evans will be the future CB pairing. But Rio and Vidic are still going on. The odd game here and there isn't going to help. Nor is playing at RB or in Evans's case LB. They need consistent game time in the CB role to understand their jobs and grow a partnership. Though when they were called upon they did a pretty good job which led to us expecting it to not be much longer before they are regulars.

Then we buy Phil Jones for 16m. A talented defender for sure who has the experience of being in a relegation fight at Blackburn where his defensive skills were put to test. However Rio and Vidic were still around. When Vidic got injured and missed most of the season Evans stood up next to Rio. Jones and Smalling had chances and looked well. But still we haven't sorted out the new blood at CB years after looking ahead for it.

Rio and Vidic both left this summer. Those 3 CBs haven't cemented their position. It's been through poor management of when to throw them in. In the end they had to look out for their senior partner's weaknesses as they were reaching their 30s.That's not going to help them develop. They should have been allowed to build a partnership through time and through developing their own games. Not still being raw and showing signs of naivety.

The names who were mentioned for being bargains for other teams were given the chance to develop their own game but also have the chance to do so while under the pressure of performing. Mentally they build up and it helped them become who they are now (Kompany, Zabaleta, Koscielney, Coleman, Cahill, Ivanovic, Gibbs).

Sir Alex thought learning from those two senior players would help them. But he stuck with it for too long, and Moyes continued with it. We are now seeing the results of not managing that transition properly. Transition isn't just an instant thing. It builds over a period of time. We saw with our quality of football declining that a freshening up needed to happen but it never did. We did the same with our CMs and also our wings. We accepted the bare minimum when we should have looked at developing the next Manchester United team to take charge. Why? Under Fergie it worked. But it was not sustainable because as I said in an earlier post not many players improved or can say they made a vital contribution. Most players did okay when needed but that is not the standard.
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In a way SAF went against his own philosophy of saying right I am going to throw kids in as I think they are talented enough. He did it in 96, selling some good players to make way for them. If he didn't think they were good enough then he bought them in the first place.
 
DomesticTadpole said:
You wonder if we should be buying players at early full potential rather than the young end of the market, Jones etc with unrealised potential who never reach it. I would prefer to buy players of 24 upwards with a good number of games under their belt. So even if they aren't world class they will still be darn good for us.
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For me when it comes to CBs you either buy a 24+ years old player who will be able to play for you or a 16-17 years old very talented player that you don't count on.
 
JUPITER said:
Totally agree. I'm not sure why there's this notion of exclusivity regarding CBs. They don't need to be world class, just capable, sensible and well organised.

The key phrase is 'good enough to improve us', that's all we needed to do with our CBs.

I've said it before, but I firmly believe that if we'd brought in a couple of well versed PL warhorse CBs - Shawcross and Vlaar for example - we'd be sat at least third right now.

Vlaar's not pretty but he understands Van Gaal's high line and he ran Holland's miserly defence throughout the entire World Cup. Considering the money we spent in the Summer it baffles me that we didn't bring in a 'safe pair of hands' at CB, someone who has proven to understand a high line and who also understands the PL.
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Yeah, I said at the time we needed a senior, experienced leader in the mix with the usual suspects (who were all injury prone works in progress) and agree that Vlaar seemed absolutely tailor made for the job. I'll give Van Gaal the benefit of the doubt regarding knowing how good he really is but it does seem now that he could have made a massive difference to our season so far, even if he wasn't seen as a long term solution.

Would have been the equivalent of Arsenal signing Arteta on deadline a few years back. Not a brilliant player but been important enough while Wilshere and Ramsey were developing and almost certainly been a big help in keeping them in the CL places during his time there.
 
DomesticTadpole said:
In a way SAF went against his own philosophy of saying right I am going to throw kids in as I think they are talented enough. He did it in 96, selling some good players to make way for them. If he didn't think they were good enough then he bought them in the first place.
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Agree. I often wonder whether in his last reigns he focused on having lots options to perform here and there rather than trim the fat and bring in new players either our own or signings who immediately get into the eleven. Fergie often spoke about how important going out a winner is and having a large squad with players who can do a job can form a basis for our strikers to score the goals. It wasn't pretty but it was effective. Though I think he is the only manager who could have done that.

Maybe he feared if he went for youth like he always previously did then in the current moment we would have fallen too far behind the moneybags and he wouldn't be around as manager to see them through.
 
I think Ferguson knew the writing was on the wall for the team. That there was a massive rebuilding job to do. He's already created three, or is it four, amazing teams with continued success, the idea of doing it again at his age was probably one step too far. As with everything with Fergie, his timing was impeccable...
 
why does it seem like many are turning against rojo so soon? Let's not forget how evra looked pretty poor in his first half season.
 
Rednotdead said:
I fully agree with you there. To me, this "philosophy" business and the time it apparently takes to instil it is a nonsense. He's the manager of a football team and it's his job to get the team performing as soon as possible. It's not some philosophical exercise where he gets as long as he wants to see if it works. The 3-5-2 debacle just wasted valuable time and points. He has a lot of ground to make up and that needs to start now if we're to make any sort of impression this season.
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I'm struggling to take you seriously. Didn't you preach patience with Moyes? What has changed now?
 
Boycott said:
Agree. I often wonder whether in his last reigns he focused on having lots options to perform here and there rather than trim the fat and bring in new players either our own or signings who immediately get into the eleven. Fergie often spoke about how important going out a winner is and having a large squad with players who can do a job can form a basis for our strikers to score the goals. It wasn't pretty but it was effective. Though I think he is the only manager who could have done that.

Maybe he feared if he went for youth like he always previously did then in the current moment we would have fallen too far behind the moneybags and he wouldn't be around as manager to see them through.
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Chelsea and City changed the game a lot for managers like Fergie. When you could simply buy the best and win the league easily, it puts winning trophies in a totally different perspective.
 
Pogue Mahone said:
Yeah, I said at the time we needed a senior, experienced leader in the mix with the usual suspects (who were all injury prone works in progress) and agree that Vlaar seemed absolutely tailor made for the job. I'll give Van Gaal the benefit of the doubt regarding knowing how good he really is but it does seem now that he could have made a massive difference to our season so far, even if he wasn't seen as a long term solution.

Would have been the equivalent of Arsenal signing Arteta on deadline a few years back. Not a brilliant player but been important enough while Wilshere and Ramsey were developing and almost certainly been a big help in keeping them in the CL places during his time there.
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If rumours are correct, we have already arranged to get Vlaar in January, but hey...rumours eh?
 
fishfingers15 said:
I'm struggling to take you seriously. Didn't you preach patience with Moyes? What has changed now?
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The fact that most could see the team has actually improved (football wise) on the pitch with LVG. The quality of football under Moyes was simply not good enough for a club like Man Utd. The team is actually looking a lot better under LVG; just the obvious defensive and injury problems at the moment which can be addressed with time.
 
Il Prete Rosso said:
The fact that most could see the team has actually improved (football wise) on the pitch with LVG. The quality of football under Moyes was simply not good enough for a club like Man Utd. The team is actually looking a lot better under LVG; just the obvious defensive and injury problems at the moment which can be addressed with time.
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Must admit, the injury situation at United seems to be worse than anyone else, although I might be wrong. What on earth are we doing.....plus don't we have a top class medical recovery unit at Carrington....? Not that footballers are like cars of course...
 
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