Louis van Gaal | Manchester United manager

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steve9 said:
Your remarks about Di Maria's role made me think. To be perfectly honest, I start to wonder whether LvG and his system is really what United should want.

I always thought United's biggest strength was speed and power. Direct passing, fast forward, accelerating the tempo more than any other. Overwhelming opponents with skill and shire power, especially at home. And tight defending with top speed counter attacking, especially away. To me that was the DNA of United. Maybe I’m wrong or just glorifying.

At least to me, Rooney (next to Keane, Scholes, Giggs, and many others) was the personification of that kind of football. He is still so hard to defend when he runs with the ball at full speed towards the box. And Di Maria can do exactly the same, probably even better. But those two in possession football? Seems like a waste to me.

I think the reason why at some point for United their traditional style didn't work anymore was simply that several players were too old or for other reasons over their peak. SAF simply didn't reload the roster early enough, perhaps he wasn’t thinking beyond his tenure anymore.

Then came Moyes and had to deal with a team beyond its peak. Didn’t work. And now LvG wants to establish possession football. But possession football is like chess. You make a move, you wait for your opponent's move, then you make your next move. If you are better than your opponent you will most likely succeed, eventually. But that kind of football is an eternity away from overpowering an opponent. It's more like outsmarting. With Rooney, RvP and Di Maria he doesn’t even have the perfect stars for that system, at least IMO. Aren’t they the perfect run and gun players?

A football style DNA is firmly established in a team, even in a club. It takes several years to replace it. And honestly in United’s case I'm not even sure whether this is desirable. From United it takes away something I always found unique and very admirable.

Real never tried to copy Barca. They did in fact the opposite: They added runners and gunners in order to fight them. Shouldn't United also stick to their roots? They have already three, rather four top strikers. Now add some top defenders and holding midfielders. Then you have Real 2.0, which is way closer to United's roots than a Barca copycat.

And don’t fool yourself with a Bayern comparison and hope LvG’s style will work the same way after only a few months. Bayern was never a run and gun team. They always played very rational at a rather slow tempo. Very different from anything United has played in the past.
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Interesting post, mate.

You're saying that it's not a matter of LvG being good enough, but rather a question of whether or not he's actually the right direction to go in... I've not actually heard anyone pose that question, which in itself is quite interesting, as if we're all a bit stunned still as a club after the last year.

Do you think the absolute disaster that was the Moyes' appointment has left us so bewildered as a fanbase/club that we're not quite thinking clearly (collectively) regarding Van Gaal's appointment and the instilling of the 'philosophy'?
 
steve9 said:
Your remarks about Di Maria's role made me think. To be perfectly honest, I start to wonder whether LvG and his system is really what United should want.

I always thought United's biggest strength was speed and power. Direct passing, fast forward, accelerating the tempo more than any other. Overwhelming opponents with skill and shire power, especially at home. And tight defending with top speed counter attacking, especially away. To me that was the DNA of United. Maybe I’m wrong or just glorifying.

At least to me, Rooney (next to Keane, Scholes, Giggs, and many others) was the personification of that kind of football. He is still so hard to defend when he runs with the ball at full speed towards the box. And Di Maria can do exactly the same, probably even better. But those two in possession football? Seems like a waste to me.

I think the reason why at some point for United their traditional style didn't work anymore was simply that several players were too old or for other reasons over their peak. SAF simply didn't reload the roster early enough, perhaps he wasn’t thinking beyond his tenure anymore.

Then came Moyes and had to deal with a team beyond its peak. Didn’t work. And now LvG wants to establish possession football. But possession football is like chess. You make a move, you wait for your opponent's move, then you make your next move. If you are better than your opponent you will most likely succeed, eventually. But that kind of football is an eternity away from overpowering an opponent. It's more like outsmarting. With Rooney, RvP and Di Maria he doesn’t even have the perfect stars for that system, at least IMO. Aren’t they the perfect run and gun players?

A football style DNA is firmly established in a team, even in a club. It takes several years to replace it. And honestly in United’s case I'm not even sure whether this is desirable. From United it takes away something I always found unique and very admirable.

Real never tried to copy Barca. They did in fact the opposite: They added runners and gunners in order to fight them. Shouldn't United also stick to their roots? They have already three, rather four top strikers. Now add some top defenders and holding midfielders. Then you have Real 2.0, which is way closer to United's roots than a Barca copycat.

And don’t fool yourself with a Bayern comparison and hope LvG’s style will work the same way after only a few months. Bayern was never a run and gun team. They always played very rational at a rather slow tempo. Very different from anything United has played in the past.
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Not saying you're wrong, but maybe van Gaal has been given free reign to change United's identity and traditional style of playing football.
 
Need to win the next 7 games.

That's the reality of it.

We all said last January, even those like me who were against Moyes, "Ah it'll be fine. We are United and other teams will drop off"

Well, other teams didn't drop off and we have dropped off massively. . We cannot afford to lose anymore ground.
 
Devil may care said:
So basically you think we'd be better off using our CB's in a more old fashioned way, don't bring the ball out and hold a deeper line?
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What is wrong with that? Clearly our CB's are not comfortable bringing the ball out of the defense and playing that high up the pitch. At the moment some of the simplest of passes they have to make are being intercepted by the opposition attackers. Why not go back to the basics of defending and try to get some wins to get our confidence back?
 
Insanity said:
What is wrong with that? Clearly our CB's are not comfortable bringing the ball out of the defense and playing that high up the pitch. At the moment some of the simplest of passes they have to make are being intercepted by the opposition attackers. Why not go back to the basics of defending and try to get some wins to get our confidence back?
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I never said there was anything wrong with it, I was just clarifying that was what you were implying. In truth it probably is the best thing to do until we can get in better CB's.
 
Devil may care said:
I never said there was anything wrong with it, I was just clarifying that was what you were implying. In truth it probably is the best thing to do until we can get in better CB's.
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We are in unison on that one.

Evans is only one who is good at bringing the ball out. The problem is that the fecker is never freaking fit and when he is, he needs a leader besides him.
 
duffer said:
So, rating out of 10 for LVG so far?

Any "it's too soon Mr Duffer" replies will be treated as 2/10.
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Lets just say I wouldn't take us home from the bar right now. 5, maybe 6, out of 10 atm. But in due time, maybe we lose some weight, get a haircut, fix our makeup and wardrobe. Who knows.
 
Insanity said:
Not a card carrying member of the Van Gaal "philosphy" cult, I assume. Infidel!
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I feel a little conflicted, because I like LvG a lot and I have a great deal more faith in him during the bad times than I ever did when Moyes was in charge, but we need to call a spade a spade - it's been a disastrous start to the season. Thanks to the ineptitude of others, we're still within striking distance of the top four, but I'm worried the gap is going to widen. Some of the away fixtures we have before the turn of the year look quite onerous to me.
 
Feed Me said:
Results - disastrous.

Performances - highly overrated.

3/10. We're a mess.
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Its his fault right? Who left him with a defense largely made of overrated and injury prone players?
 
devilish said:
Its his fault right? Who left him with a defense largely made of overrated and injury prone players?
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I'm not quite sure where the blame needs to be apportioned anymore.

From SAF's perspective, the likes of Smalling, Jones and Evans played with a great deal more consistency - probably because of the fact that they were understudies, whereas they're now tasked with being first choice players. The Moyes era clearly sapped the entire squad of confidence - don't think much analysis is needed there. LvG didn't help himself with the unnecessary early season move to 3-5-2, while his failure to properly reinforce the back line during the transfer window is a blot on his copybook.

I keep coming back to the same point, but we really ought to take Southampton as an example - only five goals conceded in ten games, with seven wins in that time. Koeman has managed to organise his team into a cohesive unit straight away, despite over half the starting eleven changing. I like LvG, but feel shortchanged by his reign so far.
 
Feed Me said:
I'm not quite sure where the blame needs to be apportioned anymore.

From SAF's perspective, the likes of Smalling, Jones and Evans played with a great deal more consistency - probably because of the fact that they were understudies, whereas they're now tasked with being first choice players. The Moyes era clearly sapped the entire squad of confidence - don't think much analysis is needed there. LvG didn't help himself with the unnecessary early season move to 3-5-2, while his failure to properly reinforce the back line during the transfer window is a blot on his copybook.

I keep coming back to the same point, but we really ought to take Southampton as an example - only five goals conceded in ten games, with seven wins in that time. Koeman has managed to organise his team into a cohesive unit straight away, despite over half the starting eleven changing. I like LvG, but feel shortchanged by his reign so far.
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The 3-5-2 was a mistake that he clearly ratified however let us not blame LVG for inheriting a heavily overrated team with a defense filled with crocks and a midfield filled with mid EPL table level midfielders. Its very hard to build a cohesive team when you're relying on teenagers fresh from the youth academy.
 
Feed Me said:
I'm not quite sure where the blame needs to be apportioned anymore.

From SAF's perspective, the likes of Smalling, Jones and Evans played with a great deal more consistency - probably because of the fact that they were understudies, whereas they're now tasked with being first choice players. The Moyes era clearly sapped the entire squad of confidence - don't think much analysis is needed there. LvG didn't help himself with the unnecessary early season move to 3-5-2, while his failure to properly reinforce the back line during the transfer window is a blot on his copybook.

I keep coming back to the same point, but we really ought to take Southampton as an example - only five goals conceded in ten games, with seven wins in that time. Koeman has managed to organise his team into a cohesive unit straight away, despite over half the starting eleven changing. I like LvG, but feel shortchanged by his reign so far.
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so Koeman is a better manager and he could take the United defenders and make them solid and cohesive?

Right.
 
Feed Me said:
I'm not quite sure where the blame needs to be apportioned anymore.

From SAF's perspective, the likes of Smalling, Jones and Evans played with a great deal more consistency - probably because of the fact that they were understudies, whereas they're now tasked with being first choice players. The Moyes era clearly sapped the entire squad of confidence - don't think much analysis is needed there. LvG didn't help himself with the unnecessary early season move to 3-5-2, while his failure to properly reinforce the back line during the transfer window is a blot on his copybook.

I keep coming back to the same point, but we really ought to take Southampton as an example - only five goals conceded in ten games, with seven wins in that time. Koeman has managed to organise his team into a cohesive unit straight away, despite over half the starting eleven changing. I like LvG, but feel shortchanged by his reign so far.
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I fully agree with you there. To me, this "philosophy" business and the time it apparently takes to instil it is a nonsense. He's the manager of a football team and it's his job to get the team performing as soon as possible. It's not some philosophical exercise where he gets as long as he wants to see if it works. The 3-5-2 debacle just wasted valuable time and points. He has a lot of ground to make up and that needs to start now if we're to make any sort of impression this season.
 
charleysurf said:
so Koeman is a better manager and he could take the United defenders and make them solid and cohesive?

Right.
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He didn't actually say Koeman is a better manager. The point is that he certainly knows how to quickly organise his team to best effect. Van Gaal hasn't yet exhibited that ability.
 
charleysurf said:
so Koeman is a better manager and he could take the United defenders and make them solid and cohesive?

Right.
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He clearly didn't say that.

However while he does have a point, I still believe that we need to see things in context

a) Manchester United are not Southampton. The pressure on us is much bigger
b) Southampton has defenders that can actually be relied on. We got a number of crocks which keep on feck off to the treatment room every day.

LVG is not immune to criticism. I can think of at least 3 mistakes he did

a) 3-5-2
b) he completely underestimated the physicality of the EPL game. Blind is good but you need alot more steel in CM then Herrera-Di Maria and Blind
c) he actually believed the nonsense that the defense didn't need a major lift. Defense need as much investment as CM needed

However the guy is adapting quickly to the English game and there's no one better then him on the market to sort these things up
 
Feed Me said:
I feel a little conflicted, because I like LvG a lot and I have a great deal more faith in him during the bad times than I ever did when Moyes was in charge, but we need to call a spade a spade - it's been a disastrous start to the season. Thanks to the ineptitude of others, we're still within striking distance of the top four, but I'm worried the gap is going to widen. Some of the away fixtures we have before the turn of the year look quite onerous to me.
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I was being silly.

At the moment, we don't have a choice but to have faith in him. My issue is that I am yet to see this magical improvement that others have mentioned. Yes, the midfield has gotten better, it would have been hard not to with the addition of Blind and Herrera. The attack looks better when Di Maria is on song and making his runs. Other than that, I still see us as a disjointed team. There isn't proper harmony between the defense, midfield and attack. The attacks are not sustained, the midfield pressure is not intense, the defense looks in shambles. Some of it can be excused as bedding in issues with new players and new manager. Though we should still be able to get results with half a billion pound of talent on the field. I see organisation issues with the midfield and the defense. At times we look a bit clueless.

I also have concerns about the fitness levels of our players. Our players start to look lethargic after 60 minutes in most games. A lot of the players were cramped around the 80th minute in the City game. What is up with that? Besides Di Maria, Van Persie and Blind, most of these guys either came early from the world cup or were not involoved at all.

I agree, only 4 points away from 4th is not a reason to be proud of. Othera ineptness is not a positive on the teams performances. The gap will surely widen as others come into form while the "philosophy" implementation deadline has been extended from the initial three months to an indefinite period.
 
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devilish said:
He clearly didn't say that.

However while he does have a point, I still believe that we need to see things in context

a) Manchester United are not Southampton. The pressure on us is much bigger
b) Southampton has defenders that can actually be relied on. We got a number of crocks which keep on feck off to the treatment room every day.

LVG is not immune to criticism. I can think of at least 3 mistakes he did

a) 3-5-2
b) he completely underestimated the physicality of the EPL game. Blind is good but you need alot more steel in CM then Herrera-Di Maria and Blind
c) he actually believed the nonsense that the defense didn't need a major lift. Defense need as much investment as CM needed

However the guy is adapting quickly to the English game and there's no one better then him on the market to sort these things up
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Who did he listen to and believe? I am sorry to say this but that is total nonsense. He went after Vermaelen and bought Rojo; that is all you need to know to understand that defense is going to be issue with Van Gaal.

Organisation of the team can help with defense. A teams defensive strength is not only directly proportional to the quality of the defenders.

The same central defense that looked shambles under Villas-Boas is now considered the best in the league under Jose.
 
Insanity said:
Who did he listen to and believe? I am sorry to say this but that is total nonsense. He went after Vermaelen and bought Rojo; that is all you need to know to understand that defense is going to be issue with Van Gaal.

Organisation of the team can help with defense. Teams defensive is not only directly proportional to the quality of the defenders.

The same central defense that looked shambles under Villas-Boas is now considered the best in the league under Jose.
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According to Bayern fans, LvG builds from the front. The defense isn't a priority for him, atleast to start with. Obviously that's questionable as it goes against normal practice. But it's worked for him before...
 
Insanity said:
Who did he listen to and believe? I am sorry to say this but that is total nonsense. He went after Vermaelen and bought Rojo; that is all you need to know to understand that defense is going to be issue with Van Gaal.

Organisation of the team can help with defense. A teams defensive strength is not only directly proportional to the quality of the defenders.

The same central defense that looked shambles under Villas-Boas is now considered the best in the league under Jose.
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If you think that Mourinho or anybody else can make a defense made up of a youth talent and wingers a solid unit then be my guest. The truth is that the defense is what is letting this team down and not LVG. We cant keep blaming the manager while 2/3 of the defense is rotting in the treatment room.
 
Football is a strange game. We'll win comfortably this weekend and Liverpool will probably get smashed and people on here will be off his back again. It's still very early days in this league in terms of finishing in the top four, nothing really matters yet.
 
Rednotdead said:
I fully agree with you there. To me, this "philosophy" business and the time it apparently takes to instil it is a nonsense. He's the manager of a football team and it's his job to get the team performing as soon as possible. It's not some philosophical exercise where he gets as long as he wants to see if it works. The 3-5-2 debacle just wasted valuable time and points. He has a lot of ground to make up and that needs to start now if we're to make any sort of impression this season.
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It depends whether you want to build for the long or short term. For an event like the world cup for example, I believe LVG just tried to do whatever was expedient as to get the team to move as far as possible.

But for a club like Utd that keeps talking about tradition, promoting youth, having a "Manutd Way" you can't avoid the talk of a "philosophy" or whatever you want to call it. It is contradictory to say we are a club build on traditions and a certain ethos but please just show us impatient fans some quick fix.
 
RedPnutz said:
It depends whether you want to build for the long or short term. For an event like the world cup for example, I believe LVG just tried to do whatever was expedient as to get the team to move as far as possible.

But for a club like Utd that keeps talking about tradition, promoting youth, having a "Manutd Way" you can't avoid the talk of a "philosophy" or whatever you want to call it. It is contradictory to say we are a club build on traditions and a certain ethos but please just show us impatient fans some quick fix.
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Nobody said anything about a quick fix. It's possible to build for the future and still achieve acceptable results in the interim. The two aren't mutually exclusive.
 
Rednotdead said:
Nobody said anything about a quick fix. It's possible to build for the future and still achieve acceptable results in the interim. The two aren't mutually exclusive.
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Yep, but you usually have to have a good team to begin with.
 
But we are still not playing that bad, not at all. For God sake, we had more chances than Chelsea in the game against them and most points we loose it's because of the stupidity of some player.

LVG is making mistakes, but here you can really see improvement.
 
He's clearly try to change the way the team plays, we haven't been passing the ball around this well for ages. Trouble is we're very inconsistent and can go from looking like world beaters to a completely disorganised team getting outplayed by Leicester and West Ham. If we can't find some solidity and consistency we're going to miss out on Europe altogether yet again. I feel that if we could be better defensively and click even more offensively we'd be one of the best teams in Europe.
 
Sarni said:
He's clearly try to change the way the team plays, we haven't been passing the ball around this well for ages. Trouble is we're very inconsistent and can go from looking like world beaters to a completely disorganised team getting outplayed by Leicester and West Ham. If we can't find some solidity and consistency we're going to miss out on Europe altogether yet again. I feel that if we could be better defensively and click even more offensively we'd be one of the best teams in Europe.
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That's a pretty big leap!
 
Pogue Mahone said:
That's a pretty big leap!
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That is and we'll find it difficult to find this consistency. I'm not talking about Bayern/Real Madrid good but at least competitive enough to make it out of the group stages of CL - say around the level of Juventus, Atletico, PSG etc. In patches we've looked like a team capable of getting there eventually.
 
If/when we click, we will click. This season so far has been like bringing someone amazing home from the club but then fumbling in the dark with the keys and not being able to figure out which one opens the door to your flat. We can't keep fecking about for much longer before Top 4 stomps away and hails a taxi, but we're so close to getting it right.
 
hundred_trillion said:
If/when we click, we will click. This season so far has been like bringing someone amazing home from the club but then fumbling in the dark with the keys and not being able to figure out which one opens the door to your flat. We can't keep fecking about for much longer before Top 4 stomps away and hails a taxi, but we're so close to getting it right.
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Ian Holloway, is that you?
 
devilish said:
If you think that Mourinho or anybody else can make a defense made up of a youth talent and wingers a solid unit then be my guest. The truth is that the defense is what is letting this team down and not LVG. We cant keep blaming the manager while 2/3 of the defense is rotting in the treatment room.
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The problem is that he didn't do anything to rectify the situation. Everyone knew that we had a problem. Also, your assertion that, he listened to someone and did not recitify the situation, is preposterous.

This was the first 10 games under Moyes -

Swansea – Jones Rio Vidic Evra
Chelsea - Jones Rio Vidic Evra
Liverpool – Jones Rio Vidic Evra (Jones was replaced by Valencia in the 37th minute due to an injury)
Palace – Fabio Rio Vidic Evra
Leverkusen – Smalling Rio Vidic Evra
City – Smalling Rio Vidic Evra
Liverpool – Rafael Evans Smalling Buttner
West Brom – Jones Rio Evans Buttner
Donestk – Rafael Smalling Vidic Evra
Sunderland – Rafael Jones Vidic Evra

Should we apologise and give him his job back?
 
Insanity said:
The problem is that he didn't do anything to rectify the situation. Everyone knew that we had a problem. Also, your assertion that, he listened to someone and did not recitify the situation, is preposterous.

This was the first 10 games under Moyes -

Swansea – Jones Rio Vidic Evra
Chelsea - Jones Rio Vidic Evra
Liverpool – Jones Rio Vidic Evra (Jones was replaced by Valencia in the 37th minute due to an injury)
Palace – Fabio Rio Vidic Evra
Leverkusen – Smalling Rio Vidic Evra
City – Smalling Rio Vidic Evra
Liverpool – Rafael Evans Smalling Buttner
West Brom – Jones Rio Evans Buttner
Donestk – Rafael Smalling Vidic Evra
Sunderland – Rafael Jones Vidic Evra

Should we apologise and give him his job back?
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Its ridiculous to believe that we could have sorted everything in one transfer window especially when we consider that he also had to sort CM. Why don't we admit that both LVG and Moyes found a mess which no one could sort quickly?

The difference between LVG and Moyes is that most of the former signings are doing very well and the team is showing some encouraging signs in terms of ball retention and dominating opposition. Also the players seem happier with LVG then they were with Moyes were everyone seemed to want to leave.

I am not saying that LVG hasn't done his fair of mistakes however criticizing his team for leaking goals when we barely have any first team defenders left is a bit of a blow below the belt.
 
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