Louis van Gaal | Manchester United manager

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Pogue Mahone said:
Wait, what? Who the hell suggested we go "a few seasons" outside the top four while Moyes cut his teeth?

The most patient people on here last season were saying a single season outside the top four was acceptable. This was generally met with scorn from people who said "he inherited a title-winning team" but not one person on here ever said we could faff around in the Europa places for a few seasons while Moyes learned how to manage. Don't make shit up, just to score points.

Speaking as someone who definitely went out of his way to urge people to be more patient with Moyes the fact that hindsight has proven I was wrong to do so makes me less, rather than more, willing to cut his successor the same amount of slack. That's obvious though, surely? What's "strange" about it?
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I was also one who urged patience* for Moyes. Who knows, with more time he might have come good eventually, but in his first season in charge he didn't show us anything to suggest that would be the case. The team played badly and inconsistently, lacked a direction at time, he bought poorly, and some of the players seemed to lack trust in him.

The thing I see with Van Gaal is different, maybe its blind faith again? But I do feel that its only a matter of time before Van Gaal gets it right with this team. Be that after an other transfer window or two but I think he's got a idea and plan to sort this team out.

Time will tell I guess.

*Patience, football fans generally don't have this when it comes to their team. Be that a manager or a player but I think its important personally so I also try to give people time to settle. In my younger days, when I joined this very forum I called out Darren Fletcher for being no good and having no chance. I was proved wrong and since then I've always tried to be a bit more patience.
 
Trigg said:
I was also one who urged patience* for Moyes. Who knows, with more time he might have come good eventually, but in his first season in charge he didn't show us anything to suggest that would be the case. The team played badly and inconsistently, lacked a direction at time, he bought poorly, and some of the players seemed to lack trust in him.

The thing I see with Van Gaal is different, maybe its blind faith again? But I do feel that its only a matter of time before Van Gaal gets it right with this team. Be that after an other transfer window or two but I think he's got a idea and plan to sort this team out.

Time will tell I guess.

*Patience, football fans generally don't have this when it comes to their team. Be that a manager or a player but I think its important personally so I also try to give people time to settle. In my younger days, when I joined this very forum I called out Darren Fletcher for being no good and having no chance. I was proved wrong and since then I've always tried to be a bit more patience.
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Don't get me wrong, if we lose three of our next four game (which is definitely possible) and anyone demands that Van Gaal be shown the door I'll be preaching patience too. There's mitigating factors in our poor start (injuries, mainly) and Van Gaal has proven himself to be capable of bringing success to big clubs like United (which is where Moyes fell short) so I would still want to see where we are by the beginning of 2015 before I would think about cutting our losses.

That's about the extent of it, though. If we're still dropping points against the calibre of opposition we've already dropped points this season and we're no closer to the big boys as we enter the January transfer window I would be thinking long and hard about whether Van Gaal is the man to be trusted get us back where we want to be. That might seem a little harsh but it will mean he's actually been worse than Moyes (whose results as manager were really fecking terrible) despite an enormous spending spree last summer. Seeing as we've made a decision to judge our managers season by season, rather than looking at 2 or 3 year plans then I don't think it's unreasonable for the club to consider alternatives if the entire first half of the season has been as bad as the first 8 games. And let's not forget, the results in the first 8 games have been really really bad!

I'm basically an optimist, though. I do think things will be looking a lot better after the next 8 games. As you say, time will tell.
 
I knew Moyes would be a disaster before he signed and said just as much on here.

LVG on the other hand will struggle for a little while longer before he gets it right but he will get it right.
 
Pogue Mahone said:
Don't get me wrong, if we lose three of our next four game (which is definitely possible) and anyone demands that Van Gaal be shown the door I'll be preaching patience too. There's mitigating factors in our poor start (injuries, mainly) and Van Gaal has proven himself to be capable of bringing success to big clubs like United (which is where Moyes fell short) so I would still want to see where we are by the beginning of 2015 before I would think about cutting our losses.

That's about the extent of it, though. If we're still dropping points against the calibre of opposition we've already dropped points this season and we're no closer to the big boys as we enter the January transfer window I would be thinking long and hard about whether Van Gaal is the man to be trusted get us back where we want to be. That might seem a little harsh but it will mean he's actually been worse than Moyes (whose results as manager were really fecking terrible) despite an enormous spending spree last summer. Seeing as we've made a decision to judge our managers season by season, rather than looking at 2 or 3 year plans then I don't think it's unreasonable for the club to consider alternatives if the entire first half of the season has been as bad as the first 8 games. And let's not forget, the results in the first 8 games have been really really bad!

I'm basically an optimist, though. I do think things will be looking a lot better after the next 8 games. As you say, time will tell.
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I was certainly one of the ones preaching patience with Moyes..although he lost me around Feb/March I believe. My support for LVG this season is more born from the fact I'm desperate for him to get it right. The idea of firing another manager, installing another one and listening to the need to instil a new "philosophy" from the new one will make me feel like I'm in Ground Hog day.
 
Ducklegs said:
I knew Moyes would be a disaster before he signed and said just as much on here.

LVG on the other hand will struggle for a little while longer before he gets it right but he will get it right.
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This, pretty much. Moyes was always going to fail as he just isn't good enough, didn't play attacking football and didn't have the mentality. Van gaal has us playing entertaining football again, definitely has the mentality, just so far we haven't been getting consistent results. I'm confident that theyll come, he's started slowly results wise everywhere he's been, it's just a matter of time to grind out the silly mistakes.
 
Pogue Mahone said:
Don't get me wrong, if we lose three of our next four game (which is definitely possible) and anyone demands that Van Gaal be shown the door I'll be preaching patience too. There's mitigating factors in our poor start (injuries, mainly) and Van Gaal has proven himself to be capable of bringing success to big clubs like United (which is where Moyes fell short) so I would still want to see where we are by the beginning of 2015 before I would think about cutting our losses.

That's about the extent of it, though. If we're still dropping points against the calibre of opposition we've already dropped points this season and we're no closer to the big boys as we enter the January transfer window I would be thinking long and hard about whether Van Gaal is the man to be trusted get us back where we want to be. That might seem a little harsh but it will mean he's actually been worse than Moyes (whose results as manager were really fecking terrible) despite an enormous spending spree last summer. Seeing as we've made a decision to judge our managers season by season, rather than looking at 2 or 3 year plans then I don't think it's unreasonable for the club to consider alternatives if the entire first half of the season has been as bad as the first 8 games. And let's not forget, the results in the first 8 games have been really really bad!

I'm basically an optimist, though. I do think things will be looking a lot better after the next 8 games. As you say, time will tell.
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While I agree generally, it depends on circumstances too. Our injury record this season for example, if that continues then that has to be factored into any conclusions. The biggest thing for me is that LvG decided to take a chance with Jones, Evans & Smalling. Young, talented players but all prone to mistakes and injury. I think the defence has been playing way below par and while that might have something to do with chopping and changing due to injury, LvG playing every formation known to mankind I think the main problem has been individual errors.

Fingers crossed we can stay relatively clear of injuries so we can get a true feeling of those players to really see if they can play for and be relied on going forward.
 
Adebesi said:
So January is when the threads speculating about who should be our next manager go up then? There's something to look forward to.
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Well that obviously depends where United are in the table in January, but it's not unreasonable to suggest that if LVG is doing a terrible job after spending the money he has, then such threads will pop up. Fergie was pretty much a God here, and even his call of time didn't help Moyes (Who let me add, did a much better Job than LVG has thus far, against harder teams) get time.

Many United fans all over were calling for Moyes to get sacked in December lol
 
togg said:
I was certainly one of the ones preaching patience with Moyes..although he lost me around Feb/March I believe. My support for LVG this season is more born from the fact I'm desperate for him to get it right. The idea of firing another manager, installing another one and listening to the need to instil a new "philosophy" from the new one will make me feel like I'm in Ground Hog day.
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Same here, wanted us to give Moyes more time and didn't think Van Gaal was the right man for the job here (my fears have been put to rest a bit).

However, I don't want to see him sacked. As I argued when people wanted Moyes sacked after a few games, it'll get worse and we'll drop further behind if we keep sacking managers. We'll end up like England where we work through decent coaches and plump for a Hodgson when we realise we're now shit and he's steadied the boat.
 
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I honestly think if you give a good manager time, no matter what his 'philosophy', he'll grow into the role here. That could be 5 years though, but we seem to want the quick fix now.

Both Moyes and Van Gaal would get us up there again if they were/are allowed to grow into the role. The biggest hurdle seems to be replacing Fergie. Clubs as big as us are getting new managers all the time, but there is never a Fergie stepping aside and leaving an untouchable benchmark for the next man.
 
pocco said:
I honestly think if you give a good manager time, no matter what his 'philosophy', he'll grow into the role here. That could be 5 years though, but we seem to want the quick fix now.

Both Moyes and Van Gaal would get us up there again if they were/are allowed to grow into the role. The biggest hurdle seems to be replacing Fergie. Clubs as big as us are getting new managers all the time, but there is never a Fergie stepping aside and leaving an untouchable benchmark for the next man.
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No
 
pocco said:
I honestly think if you give a good manager time, no matter what his 'philosophy', he'll grow into the role here. That could be 5 years though, but we seem to want the quick fix now.

Both Moyes and Van Gaal would get us up there again if they were/are allowed to grow into the role. The biggest hurdle seems to be replacing Fergie. Clubs as big as us are getting new managers all the time, but there is never a Fergie stepping aside and leaving an untouchable benchmark for the next man.
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Moyes was never suited to United, it doesn't matter if he's given 10 years. He's just not in that class, the same way some players aren't in that world class bracket.
 
legball said:
Moyes was never suited to United, it doesn't matter if he's given 10 years. He's just not in that class, the same way some players aren't in that world class bracket.
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Aye, the old saying ‘anybody could manage that team’ comes to mind, all you have to do is look at Moyes to know that its bullpoop. It further proves that the manager is the most important person in a team.
 
Getsme said:
Aye, the old saying ‘anybody could manage that team’ comes to mind, all you have to do is look at Moyes to know that its bullpoop. It further proves that the manager is the most important person in a team.
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The most important thing is the players you put out on to the pitch.

The start of the season, before the likes of Di Maria came in, showed that even Van Gaal couldn't coach such a weak squad to success. Any improvement we will hopefully see later this season will be down to the check book and buying lots of new players.
 
charleysurf said:
The most important thing is the players you put out on to the pitch.

The start of the season, before the likes of Di Maria came in, showed that even Van Gaal couldn't coach such a weak squad to success. Any improvement we will hopefully see later this season will be down to the check book and buying lots of new players.
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:lol: Someone should tell abramovich that he is wasting his millions on mourinho, all that matters is putting the players on the pitch ala fm.
 
charleysurf said:
The most important thing is the players you put out on to the pitch.

The start of the season, before the likes of Di Maria came in, showed that even Van Gaal couldn't coach such a weak squad to success. Any improvement we will hopefully see later this season will be down to the check book and buying lots of new players.
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You couldn't be more wrong. Having good players help, but stop acting like a manager has no imput whatsoever. Why did we suck under Moyes despite having the same players as Ferguson used to win multiple titles? It's because the manager is the most important factor in team building. For many seasons, United squad could never be considered the best but we kept winning the league.
 
legball said:
You couldn't be more wrong. Having good players help, but stop acting like a manager has no imput whatsoever. Why did we suck under Moyes despite having the same players as Ferguson used to win multiple titles? It's because the manager is the most important factor in team building. For many seasons, United squad could never be considered the best but we kept winning the league.
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You said the manager is the most important thing, more important than the players on the pitch. Then why were the first few games under VG so bad? Why did we need to buy the likes of Di Maria, Blind and the rest to get some semblance of a decent team?

No, the squad was crap. Without a red hot Van Persie to paper over the cracks we were exposed last season. And just changing the manager wasn't enough. We have had to change half the starring eleven, and it looks like we need to change it even more to get where we want to be. And thankfully VG seems to be getting the money to do so.

But the idea that tactics and coaching outweigh the inherent quality of your players as a factor in your resuits was smashed at the start of this season. Not one player still here from last season has shown any improvement in form, or change in style of play. Fixing the squad has been our only hope.
 
MJJ said:
:lol: Someone should tell abramovich that he is wasting his millions on mourinho, all that matters is putting the players on the pitch ala fm.
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So Chelsea wouid be doing as well without buying Costa and Fabregas? Just having Mourinho on the sideline is the main thing?

the managers man management and tactics are important. But to say it's more important than the players you have is to say that you could plop Mourinho down in Swansea and they'd by title contenders. Stick to that fantasy if you wish.
 
In the past 3 years we were exposed to three different type of football with SAF focusing on fast flowing football in a bid to paper the cracks in CM, Moyes direct football and now LVGs continental football built around ball possession. That has taken its toll over the players and some of them wont be able to adapt to VG's philosophy.

I have mixed feelings about LVG's management at United. He was able to get rid of some deadwood and bring some quality football back to the team however he may have underestimated the EPL physicality and how weak our defense is. Such mistakes can cost him his job.
 
NessunDorma said:
Moyes 2013/14 Vs Van Gaal 2014/15 head to head record:

Swansea home:

Moyes - 3
Van Gaal - 0

Sunderland away:

Moyes - 3
Van Gaal - 1

Burnley/Fulham away (team that finished 2nd in Championship equivalent to team that finished 2nd bottom in Prem):

Moyes - 3
Van Gaal - 1

QPR/Cardiff home (team that got promoted via the play-offs equivalent to team that finished bottom in Prem):

Moyes - 3
Van Gaal - 3

Leicester/Norwich away (team that finished 1st in Championship equivalent to team that finished 3rd bottom in Prem):

Moyes - 3
Van Gaal - 0

West Ham home:

Moyes - 3
Van Gaal - 3

Everton home:

Moyes - 0
Van Gaal - 3

West Brom away:

Moyes - 3
Van Gaal - 1

Final scores:

Moyes - 21
Van Gaal - 12

I can understand why some people are more prepared to give Van Gaal time than they were Moyes. He has a track record after all, and a 'philosophy'. But his results to date have been just as bad as Moyes' were, if not much worse. And it's lucky for him that he does have a big reputation, because otherwise he'd likely be getting slaughtered in exactly the same fashion.

*Throws hand grenade*

*Runs*
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It's funny, under Moyes we had the best away form in the league, but it was the results at home that destroyed us. A lot of arguments can be made for why that happened but I think the main one that really stands out is Moyes's natural underdog characteristic. The manager's character, attitude and ambitions naturally flow to the players and we seemed to thrive when the pressure of the home fans were not on us under Moyes. It's a stark contrast to Van gaal's confidence, or over-confidence if you may, that seems to have made him underestimate playing sides away. The arrogance helps when you are playing at home, but not so much away. Having said all that, these 8 games cannot mean anything, you will have to use the whole course of the season to compare them. We haven't played poorly in any of the games after the transfer window with Van gaal and that is not something you could have said for Moyes's games. Once Van gaal and this team gets into their rhythm, albeit it being difficult due to the lack of games, the stats will really show the difference in class.
 
You wonder how much these international breaks have not helped in the progress of the team. It can't have helped them get momentum when half the side are away with their national sides and the ones he is left with are either players who wouldn't be in the side or are injured. Lack of europe might be helping, but in hindsight it is leaving us with lots of players who are not getting games and are rusty when they do play. If we get top 4 and are on a good run during the second half of the season I will be happy. They need to go into next season with confidence. Hopefully we will only need a couple of signings next summer, so the disruption won't be as great as they will be used to the management and coaching system and know what is expected of them. You cannot underestimate what a shock to the system it will have been to the new signings coming to the PL and they may take a season to get used to the pace and physicality of the league. I think LvG has got a shock as well.
 
charleysurf said:
So Chelsea wouid be doing as well without buying Costa and Fabregas? Just having Mourinho on the sideline is the main thing?

the managers man management and tactics are important. But to say it's more important than the players you have is to say that you could plop Mourinho down in Swansea and they'd by title contenders. Stick to that fantasy if you wish.
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Maybe not, however it was Mourinho who brought them into Chelsea, so that makes your point invalid in a way. The manager has to be the most important person in a team, the tactics, training, ins and outs, morale, balance, team selection, motivating players before, during and after a match to name but a few all come through the manager. Put it this way, you can put a World Class player into an average team with an average manager and they will still be average team, you put a World Class manager into an average team and they will most likely improve.
 
charleysurf said:
So Chelsea wouid be doing as well without buying Costa and Fabregas? Just having Mourinho on the sideline is the main thing?

the managers man management and tactics are important. But to say it's more important than the players you have is to say that you could plop Mourinho down in Swansea and they'd by title contenders. Stick to that fantasy if you wish.
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Fantasies such as winning the CL with porto or the euros with greece or laliga with atletico?

Oh and how can I forget the revolution at dortmund which was started when klopp signed robben, ribery, thiago silva, toure,etc and reached the CL finals.

But yeah the players are everything thats why the last glaticos dominated the world football for ages.
 
Getsme said:
Maybe not, however it was Mourinho who brought them into Chelsea, so that makes your point invalid in a way. The manager has to be the most important person in a team, the tactics, training, ins and outs, morale, balance, team selection, motivating players before, during and after a match to name but a few all come through the manager. Put it this way, you can put a World Class player into an average team with an average manager and they will still be average team, you put a World Class manager into an average team and they will most likely improve.
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What is being said is that the managers tactics and coaching are more important than the strength of the squad. I specifically said that man management and tactics are important. But more important than the strength of your squad? No way. Van Gaal couldn't coach last seasons squad to success. We saw how bad things were before the likes of Di Maria were bought. He's having to replace the squad.
 
MJJ said:
Fantasies such as winning the CL with porto or the euros with greece or laliga with atletico?

Oh and how can I forget the revolution at dortmund which was started when klopp signed robben, ribery, thiago silva, toure,etc and reached the CL finals.

But yeah the players are everything thats why the last glaticos dominated the world football for ages.
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Hmm, it's right there in my quote than man management and tactics are important. But maybe you've got some learning difficulties so I'll be gentle.
 
If players are more important than management, why didn't Real Madrid win everything in sight in the early to mid 2000's? Of course having quality players is important, but a truly world class manager will turn average players into greats, and for me that makes them more important than having a squad full of superstars. This ZonalMarking article on Porto sums it up quite well:

"Looking across this side and seeing names such as Deco, Ricardo Carvalho, Maniche and Costinha, the first reaction is to think, ‘Ah, it was a team packed full of good players’.

But before Mourinho, these were mostly nobodies – either run-of-the-mill players in a decent Porto side, or players plucked from unfashionable clubs in the Liga Sagres – Nuno Valente was signed from Leiria, Paolo Ferreira from Vitoria de Setubal.

It’s a credit to Mourinho that, for two seasons, those two were amongst the best two full-backs in Europe. Since coming to England, both have been exposed as relatively mediocre defenders, but at Porto they were genuinely spectacular, bombing up and down the flanks like Roberto Carlos and Cafu."
 
WR10 said:
It's funny, under Moyes we had the best away form in the league, but it was the results at home that destroyed us. A lot of arguments can be made for why that happened but I think the main one that really stands out is Moyes's natural underdog characteristic. The manager's character, attitude and ambitions naturally flow to the players and we seemed to thrive when the pressure of the home fans were not on us under Moyes. It's a stark contrast to Van gaal's confidence, or over-confidence if you may, that seems to have made him underestimate playing sides away. The arrogance helps when you are playing at home, but not so much away. Having said all that, these 8 games cannot mean anything, you will have to use the whole course of the season to compare them. We haven't played poorly in any of the games after the transfer window with Van gaal and that is not something you could have said for Moyes's games. Once Van gaal and this team gets into their rhythm, albeit it being difficult due to the lack of games, the stats will really show the difference in class.
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I think it was the third (or so) best away form in the league.
 
Jayvin said:
If players are more important than management, why didn't Real Madrid win everything in sight in the early to mid 2000's? Of course having quality players is important, but a truly world class manager will turn average players into greats, and for me that makes them more important than having a squad full of superstars. This ZonalMarking article on Porto sums it up quite well:

"Looking across this side and seeing names such as Deco, Ricardo Carvalho, Maniche and Costinha, the first reaction is to think, ‘Ah, it was a team packed full of good players’.

But before Mourinho, these were mostly nobodies – either run-of-the-mill players in a decent Porto side, or players plucked from unfashionable clubs in the Liga Sagres – Nuno Valente was signed from Leiria, Paolo Ferreira from Vitoria de Setubal.

It’s a credit to Mourinho that, for two seasons, those two were amongst the best two full-backs in Europe. Since coming to England, both have been exposed as relatively mediocre defenders, but at Porto they were genuinely spectacular, bombing up and down the flanks like Roberto Carlos and Cafu."
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If management is more important than players, then why did Van Gaal waste all that money on Di Maria, Blind , Rojo and Falcao? Surely the squad he inherited wouid have strolled to the top 4, if not the titie, with him at the helm? Why didn't he fancy his chances of turning Cleverley and Welbeck into greats? :lol:
 
MDFC Manager said:
I think it was the third (or so) best away form in the league.
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It was first until the last few games I think. Don't know if it changed during Giggs reign. Certainly was a hard one to understand.
 
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charleysurf said:
You said the manager is the most important thing, more important than the players on the pitch. Then why were the first few games under VG so bad? Why did we need to buy the likes of Di Maria, Blind and the rest to get some semblance of a decent team?

No, the squad was crap. Without a red hot Van Persie to paper over the cracks we were exposed last season. And just changing the manager wasn't enough. We have had to change half the starring eleven, and it looks like we need to change it even more to get where we want to be. And thankfully VG seems to be getting the money to do so.

But the idea that tactics and coaching outweigh the inherent quality of your players as a factor in your resuits was smashed at the start of this season. Not one player still here from last season has shown any improvement in form, or change in style of play. Fixing the squad has been our only hope.
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Of course the influence of the manager takes time, over one week the quality of the players is much more important, over 2 years the manager can have more influence, if it's a manager of the influential kind. Lots of managers won't make much difference, because they just do the basics like most other managers.

A manager of the influential kind works like a multiplier. If you add up the qualities of the players and value them at 11x1, the manager can multiplie that by 1.1 by making players a little bit better, by better teamwork he can multiplie it by another 1.2, and by getting the right players for his style of play he could multiplie it by another 1.1, for example. Of course the quality of the end product is still dependant on the input of player quality, but varies decisively within that margin by manager input.

If you just look at the quality of the players as it was before Van Gaal, it was highly unlikely that 94's Ajax would get throught the first round of the CL, but they won it. It was highly unlikely that AZ would win the Dutch league, it was highly unlikely that Bayern would make the transition to attacking football and become a CL contenter with it, and the Dutch national 11 of 2014 would exit in the 1st round of WC.
 
Dr. Funkenstein said:
Of course the influence of the manager takes time, over one week the quality of the players is much more important, over 2 years the manager can have more influence, if it's a manager of the influential kind. Lots of managers won't make much difference, because they just do the basics like most other managers.

A manager of the influential kind works like a multiplier. If you add up the qualities of the players and value them at 11x1, the manager can multiplie that by 1.1 by making players a little bit better, by better teamwork he can multiplie it by another 1.2, and by getting the right players for his style of play he could multiplie it by another 1.1, for example. Of course the quality of the end product is still dependant on the input of player quality, but varies decisively within that margin by manager input.

If you just look at the quality of the players as it was before Van Gaal, it was highly unlikely that 94's Ajax would get throught the first round of the CL, but they won it. It was highly unlikely that AZ would win the Dutch league, it was highly unlikely that Bayern would make the transition to attacking football and become a CL contenter with it, and the Dutch national 11 of 2014 would exit in the 1st round of WC.
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As I've said, man management and tactics are impirtant. And as you imply, a good manager can squeeze more out of his players. But again, the main factor in the equation is still the quality of your players. Over the long term the teams success will depend on the managers transfers. He has to have the raw materials to work with. Van Gaal certainly had it highlighted to him at the start of the season that he didn't have those materials. He couldn't just coach that group of players into a top 4 side. He needed a big influx of quality players. The last few games have implied that he still probably needs to keep on buying big to get where he wants to be.

There's always such a fetish made of managers on this site. The idea that the beloved Mourinho could have taken over Uniteds squad at the start of the season, and without needing any transfers he'd make them titie contenders. It's a fantasy. If Mourinho came in here he'd have demanded massive spending as well.
 
charleysurf said:
Hmm, it's right there in my quote than man management and tactics are important. But maybe you've got some learning difficulties so I'll be gentle.
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seeing as you are a bit thick let me break it down for you.

you think that players are more important Than manager but all those examples listed above are of a great manager changing the fortune of the club and winning against odds.

can't believe someone can live through klopps and mourinho time and think the manager matters less.

I see man management isn't a part of a managers job now since you separated it from tactics. then again you did support moyes so thinking isn't your strong suit.
 
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