maybe ben knew and kept it to himself....thats why he seems to be one step ahead in previous seasons.
Television Lost: Season 5
- Thread starter The Flying Potato
- Start date
Don't wanna give away any spoilers but stuff is gonna happen in upcoming episode which would mean there is not a chance than Ben won't remember the survivors.
Ok i'm in the uk and haven't seen this episode yet so i was unaware of these things. Then i'm kinda stumped, i'll wait and see.
You know about Kate-Ben thing coming up. The latter won't have put her in a cage and risked her life to be consistent with this storyline.
The only thing i've got now is that Ben is a very good liar as we've seen before, so he's lying to save the island. Or something like that.
Stop talking about these things that haven't happened yet. Any Lost debate should be free in this thread immediately after the relevant episode has been aired. We can speculate of course, but that's not what you're doing.
Alright , though that was not that spoilery. I only mentioned that there might be some interaction between two characters.
Good episode again.
I could see that the kid at the end was going to be Ben from a mile off. I was secretly hoping that the baby would be Jacob but I suppose it wasn't meant to be. Also, I think that in the same way Locke was resurrected, Christian was too. He's not a ghost... at least that's what I make of it.
We already knew it was Ben - he's been in an episode before a couple years back.
I know, it was in Ben's flashbacks. What I mean is that way before they revealed his face, at the bit where he walked in and told the guy he was going to give Sayid a sandwich, it was only going to be Ben. This stuff about separate timelines has confused me though. How comes Most of the oceanic 6 enter the 1977 timeline, whereas Sun and the rest of them didn't? They were on the same plane. Have I missed something obvious?
He can't be dead, we haven't seen the scene of him in the Orchid yet.
No, I don't get that either, though I'm sure they'll explain it sooner or later.
My guess is that she was missing something to replicate the original crash - just like Locke and the shoes.
If she hadn't got pregnant on the island then that would have been my guess, as the thing that was different from then and now, but it must be something else.
Just like how Ben wasn't in the original crash and thus doesn't get transfered to the timeline with Sawyer etc.
I thought the scene with Sawyer and Jack towards the end was interesting, because of the way their roles have reversed. The Sawyer and Julliet relationship also seems a bit awkward to me. I initially thought that Julliet didn't include Kate in the list, because she'd be a potential love rival.
Is everyone happy with the direction in which the show's heading in? All this time travel business is tricky to keep up with, but I must admit I'm intrigued.
Is everyone happy with the direction in which the show's heading in? All this time travel business is tricky to keep up with, but I must admit I'm intrigued.
He also made an effort to make her comfortable at first, did he not? He offered her a shower, a change of clean clothes and breakfast by the sea. He put her in the cage after that and treated her just like Sawyer, but what else would you expect? It's just the same as Sawyer keeping Sayid in a cage, despite everything they've been through together. Also, when did Ben risk Kate's life, and when have we ever seen a side of him that would truly care if he did? He gassed his own father and friends after all.
Ben has lied so many times in just about every episode he's featured in, it's hardly surprising he wouldn't let on that he knew them initially. Of course, as you keep suggesting, they could have made this all up at a later date, but at the same time it still fits in just fine with what we've seen previously. None of the other people in this current timeline would have recognised them in the future, because they're all going to be dead in however many years.
Also, time travel doesn't actually exist, there are literally no specifics or facts as to how it would work, just theories. There are many people (many that are highly respected in their fields), with many very different theories. None of them are correct, because it's impossible to prove any of them. Talking about how something in this season's story "couldn't", "wouldn't", "won't" or "can't" happen is nonsense. Time travel is fiction, it's each writer's own decision how they choose to implement it in whatever book, TV show or movie they're making.
I really don't see the mountain of plot holes you seem to be struggling to climb past. Maybe you could expand on that a little, or point me to where you already have done, if it's not too much trouble.
I don't have problem with time travel theories per say, they do in variably introduce some paradoxes but if handled with care, they can be done well. Back with the future series did that within their constraint of rules. All I ask for is consistency with the theory they are using.
1) What happened, what happened theory actually does not make any sense. What if someone actually shot Ben in the head in the past? What would happen then? To avoid such question, it relies on the concept of only one possibility and more or less contradicts the concept of free will.
2) Desmond should have always remembered Faraday telling him to seek out his mother. Even when he was on the island and especially when he first talked to him on the island given the fact that Faraday contacted him in the past. But magically he only remembered once he was off the island!
3) French lady should have remembered meeting Jin. Ethan should have remembered encountering Locke.
I expect these inconsistencies to increase as this season goes on. I can expand on the Ben-Kate thing in the spoiler thread if you wish to be spoiled on an upcoming story line.
Why did the O6 got flashed at all? Both in 1977 and 2008 timeline flashed had stopped.
Ahh thats a good shout.
But what if I actually did create a time machine, went back in time and shot YOU in the head
How does that work??If it can't work in real life, it can't be expected to be taken seriously in a fictional show. There are so many possible paradoxes that have been realised, it makes the notion of time travel impossible. Which means that, other than the consistency you asked for, which is a reasonable argument, there's not much else they really need to adhere to. They could say that going back in time has the effect of giving you chicken legs and a donkey's head. Who's to say otherwise?
They have to pick one idea of time travel, and they've gone with what happened, happened. They could have picked another, and there would have been another million paradoxes to ignore.
You're right there, I think. By the system they've set up, he should have known Daniel all along. What happened, happened etc. They've tried to use Desmond's experience with time travel as a way of making him special: An exception to the rule. But if Daniel met him, then he met him in the current timeline too, and thus Desmond should always have had that memory.
I don't know their true explanation for that, if they have one. Maybe, and it's of course a very convenient plot device, but maybe he always had the memory, but forgot about it. Maybe, it happening again in the timeline he was in before leaving the island, brought it to the forefront of his memory.
The flashes he had with Charlie, and his multiple time travelling experiences show that he's connected in some way to the island and its own time travelling shit. So that would explain why it has been brought back to him now. Explaining why he didn't already recognise Faraday before that is just something I'm sure will be swept under the rug for the purpose of progressing the story.
Just off the top of my head, and I'll admit at this point that I could very well be wrong, but I can't remember that many occasions when Frenchy and Jin have actually met, let alone having a one-to-one. She's met Sayid, Locke, Jack, Kate and Hurley if I remember, from when she captured Sayid, and obviously when she helped them to take the dynamite from the Black Rock.
Jin was there at the end of season 3, when Jack and Frenchy showed off the explosives they were preparing for the hostiles, but he was just one person in a mass of about 30 people. He didn't go with her and the rest of them to the radio tower, he stayed behind. I might be forgetting something, but I can't think of any time when they've had a noticeable meeting since.
Then there's the fact that it's many years on, and she's gone completely nuts since then.
As for Ethan, it's the same as with Ben. He must still have that memory of Locke, so he must have either been lying or he's just forgotten. The former seems more likely, but it still doesn't create a plot hole.
Why didn't Danielle Rousseau remember Jin when the Losties first (?) crashed on the island?
The timelines are confusing. Why don't the oceanic six, Sawyer, Juliette, Jin and Miles remember being on the Island when they return to it in the future?
It's pretty obvious much of this time-travelling gimmick wasn't planned in the first couple of seasons.
The timelines are confusing. Why don't the oceanic six, Sawyer, Juliette, Jin and Miles remember being on the Island when they return to it in the future?
It's pretty obvious much of this time-travelling gimmick wasn't planned in the first couple of seasons.
Again, your last sentence isn't backed up that strongly by what you've said prior to it.
Frenchy didn't remember Jin because she's never had any meeting with him since the crash, or not that I can remember (although I'd be more than happy to admit I'm wrong, if I am). As for your second question, I'm sure even crappycraperson would be able to back me up there haha. They wouldn't remember it, because it's not their past selves that were on the island in '77, it's their current selves; so it's not in their memory until it happens to them now.
The whole CFL story makes little to no sense so I don't care much about the Jin thing. Ethan-Locke thing is not such a big loop hole as well on the face of it. But when you think about, he would have surely discussed the phenomenon of a man disappearing to no where in front of him with other others'.But what if I actually did create a time machine, went back in time and shot YOU in the head
If it can't work in real life, it can't be expected to be taken seriously in a fictional show. There are so many possible paradoxes that have been realised, it makes the notion of time travel impossible. Which means that, other than the consistency you asked for, which is a reasonable argument, there's not much else they really need to adhere to. They could say that going back in time has the effect of giving you chicken legs and a donkey's head. Who's to say otherwise?
They have to pick one idea of time travel, and they've gone with what happened, happened. They could have picked another, and there would have been another million paradoxes to ignore.
You're right there, I think. By the system they've set up, he should have known Daniel all along. What happened, happened etc. They've tried to use Desmond's experience with time travel as a way of making him special: An exception to the rule. But if Daniel met him, then he met him in the current timeline too, and thus Desmond should always have had that memory.
I don't know their true explanation for that, if they have one. Maybe, and it's of course a very convenient plot device, but maybe he always had the memory, but forgot about it. Maybe, it happening again in the timeline he was in before leaving the island, brought it to the forefront of his memory.
The flashes he had with Charlie, and his multiple time travelling experiences show that he's connected in some way to the island and it's own time travelling shit. So that would explain why it has been brought back to him now. Explaining why he didn't already recognise Faraday before that is just something I'm sure will be swept under the rug for the purpose of progressing the story.
Just off the top of my head, and I'll admit at this point that I could very well be wrong, but I can't remember that many occasions when Frenchy and Jin have actually met, let alone having a one-to-one. She's met Sayid, Locke, Jack, Kate and Hurley if I remember, from when she captured Sayid, and obviously when she helped them to take the dynamite from the Black Rock.
Jin was there at the end of season 3, when Jack and Frenchy showed off the explosives they were preparing for the hostiles, but he was just one person in a mass of about 30 people. He didn't go with her and the rest of them to the radio tower, he stayed behind. I might be forgetting something, but I can't think of any time when they've had a noticeable meeting since.
Then there's the fact that it's many years on, and she's gone completely nuts since then.
As for Ethan, it's the same as with Ben. He must still have that memory of Locke, so he must have either been lying or he's just forgotten. The former seems more likely, but it still doesn't create a plot hole.
What annoys me most about all this is that there was no need to do this time travel bollocks. They could have explained some history by flashbacks for the likes of Richard, Wildmore, CFL etc. Instead once again to wow people, they have fecked it up.
Am I right in saying, that Richard visiting baby Locke is the only situation presumed to be the result of something which happened after the time travelling?
Then I still maintain that it's much more likely that him visiting Locke didn't have anything to with their time travel, and that the outcome of their actions in 1977 doesn't affect the original timeline as they are on different "roads".
Which is why Ben and Rousseau didn't recognize Jin etc. - otherwise there are just too many loopholes, even for a show about time travelling.
Then I still maintain that it's much more likely that him visiting Locke didn't have anything to with their time travel, and that the outcome of their actions in 1977 doesn't affect the original timeline as they are on different "roads".
Which is why Ben and Rousseau didn't recognize Jin etc. - otherwise there are just too many loopholes, even for a show about time travelling.
You are wrong.
Richard visiting Locke was due to him telling him to do it. Writers confirmed the what happened, what happened storyline. Also confirmed by Wildmore's interaction with Locke.
Anyone got anything on this?
He may have discussed it, and as has been said, this may have something to do with why Ben and the others know so much about these people in particular. We haven't seen them acknowledging that they recognise the Losties, but they could easily have their own reasons for this. Maybe they didn't want to alert the Losties to the fact that they knew them from the past, in fear of it stopping them from taking their natural course and going back in time. Not that this could happen with the "what happened....." system, but that could easily have been their mentality. Either that or they just didn't see the need to let on that they knew them, which is understandable enough.
I guess you're right with that, to an extent. You don't personally enjoy the change in direction the show has taken, so you're entitled to a good moan about it. My only problem is when it goes from that, to trying to pick out holes that probably aren't there, in order to point out to others how ridiculous it is that they're falling for this drivel. Plenty of people are loving the show as it currently is, so it obviously does the job for those people.
Nope. We'll have to see if it gets explained or not
You honestly think the writers had all of this planned all along?
I'm pretty sure they have.
That would work, except that Richard clearly remembers Locke when Sawyer tells him about it in 1977. If future Richard can remember that, then why can't future Danielle remember seeing Jin in the past. I mean, the guy literally disappeared right in front of her eyes - I'm sure someone would remember that.
We'll just have to wait for the writers to explain it...or not.
It's not scientific. The reason can be whatever they choose it to be, or what us Lost fanboys want it to be.
No. In fact I've admitted a couple of times that they've probably changed direction on a number of things. I'm just defending the idea that you'd have to be an idiot to go along with the flow and just enjoy the show for what it currently is. Behind the scenes, for all I care, the writers could be making up every twist and turn, every big reveal of the island's mythology, the day before it gets shot. It doesn't change what happens on the screen as an end result, which I've been more than happy with so far.You honestly think the writers had all of this planned all along?
Personally, I think it's got steadily better since season 2. Even at its weakest points, we had great writing (Sawyer on his knees in the rain with a gun pointed at his head and Jack stopping the operation) and absolutely superb acting (Locke's "IT'S NEVER BEEN EASY!!", and most scenes with Ben)
But I'm pretty sure they haven't. Again, we could both be wrong.
Like I said, I'm not sure they've met since, which would be my explanation.
Because timetravel-Locke talks to Richard before he meets Sawyer - thus Richard has a memory of it.
Where as timetravel-Jin met Rousseau after they met in real time.
At least that's the way I see it, that their actions while time travelling don't have any affect on their original timeline.
Where as if they travelled to 2004 now and met Rousseau then she would remember Jin.
If you think you are watching some 'absolutely superb acting' on LOST, you ought to watch more cinema.
Haha, I watch plenty of cinema mate, that's definitely not my problem. I actually wrote "great acting" initially, but that was before I added the brackets, and I felt a little repetitive adding "great" twice in such a small space. So maybe "absolutely superb" is going overboard, but I stand by the example I gave of Locke in season 2 when he and Jack were arguing over the button. Sawyer, as much as I love him, has his fair share of weak points in terms of acting. Jack, considering he's been the lead for pretty much the entirety of the show, isn't the stongest of the cast either. Kate does a good job showing her character's fragile, seesaw mentality. Ben, Locke, Desmond are all usually on top form.
Sayid isn't bad either, although his bear growl when whatsherface died in the jungle was pretty cringeworthy. I actually thought he was having a stroke for a moment there.
I'm talking great acting for TV here btw. It's a lot harder to prepare for a role that's been written for you the week before and you have just the morning to prepare for the scenes you'll be shooting. Imagine finding out that you have to convincingly convey the emotion of somebody distraught at losing their wife in some tragic accident, and you have until lunch time to get it right.
How could we both be wrong? Either they've met or they haven't.
Oh right, we're talking about the Lost universe...
Haha, we could both be wrong at this moment in time, because the possibility of me being wrong still exists, as does the possibility of you being wrong. We both currently face the ultimate fate, of being proven wrong on the internet
How could we both be wrong? Either they've met or they haven't.
Oh right, we're talking about the Lost universe...
good episode, i liked seeing radzinsky for the first time
I'm going to go out on a limb and suggest that the reason Su and Ben didn't end up in 1977 is because they have themselves already there in a younger form.
Ben is in 1977 as a kid.
Sun, for all we know could have been on the Island as a kid, just she doesn't know.
Ben is in 1977 as a kid.
Sun, for all we know could have been on the Island as a kid, just she doesn't know.
Too bad he blows his face off.
Miles and Charlote were also on the island as kids before and they still flashed. I don't think it has anything to do with your past origins.
My guess would be Sun and Ben werent meant to return back. Ben because Jacob had already discarded him in favour of Locke, and Sun because Jin made Locke promise and Sun was the only one Locke didn't get to talk to.
That is plausible.
Going back to the "if someone went back in time and shot Ben in the head thing" just remember Michael trying to shoot himself with a fully loaded gun. If the island doesn't want you to die, you don't die.