manunited1919
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- Nov 26, 2015
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I remember him making a very good save in between the two errors he made. So he was able to make a diving save to his left despite his spatial awareness being impaired?
Like I said, I'll trust the Harvard medical expert over a random United fan when it comes to brain injuries...Yea, I doubt hindsight diagnosis from a doctor in hindsight when I know nothing about the tests he ran. Medicine is a highly inaccurate science at times, why not see the methods first and then believe whether something is true or not?
I never said he had no symptoms. He could have suffered from many symptoms without realizing it. To others, he could still have looked absolutely normal. Especially to someone sitting far away. Like I said, you don't seem to understand how a concussion works.If you have no symptoms, surely we can agree that it wouldn't affect your game then.
Thing is, you call others incompetent, but you don't even know what kind of tests they ran. If there is some kind of hard evidence by which a concussion was diagnosed several days later still, I obviously will believe it. Until then, I think, given the context, this is just an excuse.
What I find peculiar is that they pinpointed that the concussion happened at a set point before he made his first ruck. Over a week after the event they can pinpoint the exact timing of the injury.It's really difficult to diagnose concussion as there are no set criteria for it.
Watching the game, I didn't feel that he was suffering from a concussion and if he indeed was physical/mental exertion would have worsened his condition.
If the diagnosis is based purely on history, I don't know how the doctor can reliably state that he had a concussion.
They said it's likely to have happened at that moment. Which is in no way peculiar. They observed the tape, after all. To say it's likely to have happened at that point, is absolutely plausible.What I find peculiar is that they pinpointed that the concussion happened at a set point before he made his first ruck. Over a week after the event they can pinpoint the exact timing of the injury.
Again though, what gives your opinion on the matter any relevance over an expert in the field? Are you a doctor or someone who has thoroughly studied brain injuries? If not, sure, you can say you doubt all that stuff, but your opinion is entirely irrelevant and makes you sound pretty ignorant on the topic. You want to know the exact methods they use? Why, do you have some better methods of diagnosing concussions that has become normal practice around the world or are you some expert who has any voice on the matter of concussions?I'd first want to see the methods of said experts before I blindly believe in them. Medicine is highly inaccurate. Go to seven different doctors, you'll get seven different opinions.
This thread is a cluster feck. Fans not wanting to change their narrative, like it matters? We're all delighted Liverpool lost. Doesnt mean that Karius didnt get a concussion just because hes been a mediocre goalkeeper in the past too.They said it's likely to have happened at that moment. Which is in no way peculiar. They observed the tape, after all. To say it's likely to have happened at that point, is absolutely plausible.
See you didn't reply to my post about him travelling by plane to a hospital that has had massive contributions from Arnold. Or that it is dangerous to travel with a concussion.They said it's likely to have happened at that moment. Which is in no way peculiar. They observed the tape, after all. To say it's likely to have happened at that point, is absolutely plausible.
Oh would it ?That would make sense and vindicate Karius to be honest.
Yeah, fine to be skeptical. But the accepted opinion and point in this case is it's a concussion. A very respected professional diagnosed him having a concussion (probably not the same type of medical professional you deal with). Video evidence of the game pointed to a possible concussion. Errors that happened afterwards are very possible that a concussion makes them more likely to happen, little lapses in judgement. You dont really get anywhere from doubting a concussion, especially in a case with this many things pointing towards one. And it's not like theres any way to prove otherwise, but that's on you/any doubters to prove there wasnt one and give a lot more evidence then what there is going for a concussion.Because I'm a lawyer that has had the doubtful fun to deal with doctors malpractice on a daily basis, basically. And - what I find completely common - because I actually like to question things presented as evidence and see what they're made of instead of just believing it. Questioning stuff is good, ok?
The problem was that the play never stopped, he got elbowed in an off the ball incident that most people didnt see, rolled around a bit, got up cause no foul was called, and play just went on with him holding his head a bit. Shortly after the mistakes happened.I find it really hard to believe that Karius had no symptoms and that the Liverpool medical team missed the diagnosis.
If he had even the slightest indication of concussion, I'm sure they would have diagnosed it.
There's this test called the King-Devick Sideline Test. It's so simple that even parents can do it and it takes like 2 minutes.
The King-Devick test is a screening tool for an injured athlete that is used on the sideline of a playing field. It can help to gauge the likelihood that a person has a concussion.
After a suspected head trauma, the athlete is given this two-minute test, during which he or she is asked to rapidly read single-digit numbers displayed on cards or on a mobile device. If the time needed to complete the test is longer than the time recorded at preseason baseline, the athlete is removed from play and evaluated by a healthcare professional.
If the Liverpool medical team failed to do that simple test even, then they deserve to be sacked.
But if they did it or any other test for that matter and reached a conclusion that Karius didn't suffer from any injury and if Karius himself did not experience any symptoms whatsoever, then you can't really call it a concussion, can you
IMO that's just incompetence.The problem was that the play never stopped, he got elbowed in an off the ball incident that most people didnt see, rolled around a bit, got up cause no foul was called, and play just went on with him holding his head a bit. Shortly after the mistakes happened.
So without him going to people and saying he feels dazed, nobody would be able to tell until at the end of the game. And we're talking about a professional football player in a Champions League final. Theres not a chance in hell hes going to just walk off the field and say he has a concussion or feel like he might. Athletes get to that level with so much determination that theyll ignore so many signs of injuries and pain, especially in a final. The only thing that couldve happened in that case, was he himself sits down and tells the staff that he felt dazed. But like I said, who is going to do that in a CL final?
Feck knows, he had holidays in the states so Liverpool had him go there? Or maybe there was also an initial assessment after the game and that was part of the results. I just see no reason to doubt the doctor in this case with everything pointing towards a concussion. Its not like this stuff is publically visible. By your point of view you should doubt literally every single sporting injury unless you see a direct scan yourself, which of course isnt possible. So you turn it into "their words against mine", because you dont have access to their files.I've worked with some so called experts and if you knew details you'd vomit to be honest.
Yea, well, I personally prefer to be convinced by evidence instead of just believing in it. Hence I'd like to know what tests they ran on him and whether these tests are reliable, subjective, objective, whatever. It wouldn't be the first time someone influenced his own medical examination to help himself. Also, why did he fly to the US several days later instead of going to a european expert? Surely said doctor isn't the only person who is able to diagnose a concussion?
I simply missed it. Mainly because I received quite a few notifications the last few hours.See you didn't reply to my post about him travelling by plane to a hospital that has had massive contributions from Arnold. Or that it is dangerous to travel with a concussion.
I don't know Liverpool's owner. Wikipedia says the club is owned by the Fenway group. The whole article about that group makes no mention of anyone called Arnold. So I can't judge any potential contacts or donations right now. I would have to know more about the ownership structure.And the Liverpool's owner has made significant donations to the hospital. It's a bit strange that he get's on a plane believing he has concussion and then flies to a hospital that has ties with Arnold. Why would he go to Massachusetts? It's hardly a holiday destination.
That's perfectly fair. I'm just saying in this case, I dont see the point. The guy got elbowed in the side of the head. Showed 2 pretty severe signs of being dazed/lack of awareness with his 2 errors. Then presumably, tests afterwards. I dont see any reason to doubt it, because on replays it looked like it couldve been a concussion and now people are saying that it was.@bosnian_red
http://www.bbc.com/news/health-43490335
This for example is a mild case of experts in their field getting called out after people questioned and examined their methods and found they were basically shit. Stuff like that happens all the time in medicine. It's normal and it's okay, they're humans, nothing more. I always try to understand and see the methods, if they're convincing, sure, I won't have a hard time believing them. Until then, I prefer to be skeptical.
If true, IF TRUE, then the Liverpool doctors need to change their protocol for dealing with blows to the head
Put yourself in the shoes of a professional footballer in a CL final. Say you get a clear knock on your ankle that you're feeling. You dont just limp off the field and stop playing, they kill themselves to stay on the pitch in such a game and convince themselves theres nothing wrong. They might not even feel the injury until they're taken off and realize what's done. Hell, its happened before where someone breaks his leg but doesnt realize it right away and takes another step and then notices that in fact, his leg is broken. Or myself, I tore my ACL but for whatever reason convinced myself it was nothing so ended up finishing the practice and managed to somehow, though I was obviously fecked. Adrenaline, determination, and many other factors can cover up pain/discomfort during an event like that, but you'll still he affected. Yeah, hes a trained professional. So is Smalling, remember what happened against Leicester? Remember Ronaldo coming back on about 5 times in the European cup final even though his knee was fecked? In a final like that, these players put their careers on the line. Rarely will you see them admit to being injured.IMO that's just incompetence.
If he felt like he was confused or not feeling 100%,he should have called for help, especially after conceding the first goal.
And it being a big occasion just makes the mistake even worse.
And also you make it sound like Karius is some amateur. Professional athletes are trained to judge the injuries they suffer, especially injuries to the head. They should know better than to continue playing with an injury, especially a concussion as a second blow could be lethal.And if the mistakes were because he didn't want to walk off despite knowing that he was injured, then he should be held culpable for it
If he only had minor symptoms which even he couldn't notice but somehow affected his performance, then I feel sorry for him
All of football needs to change its protocol for dealing with blows to the head, not just LiverpoolIf true, IF TRUE, then the Liverpool doctors need to change their protocol for dealing with blows to the head
1. Well we dont video tape Karius' life, but during the game he got elbowed in the side of the head after which he fell, rolled around, then held his head quite a bit. Not hard to deduce that one.1. Assuming that it was a concussion, what proof is there that it was due to his incident with Ramos (which was caused by VvD's push) and not some other incident in that day? None.
2. It should've been a penalty anyway, though if we wanted to deduce something it'd be the ref's mistake and the incompetency of Pool's medical staff.
3. If it means that Karius wasn't to be blamed and he should be Pool's starter in the future, just do it, they have my support.
Why are you guys always so obsessed, with things someone on another forum might say? It doesn't matter at all. Not in the slightest. What Liverpool fans might or might not do in a similar situation, should really not affect your judgement on something like this.Honestly. These cringeworthy council house vermin decided to spend a week and a half to get their keeper declared concussed to excuse getting twatted in a Champions League Final. If it was us? If it was De Gea? They’d be running circles around this on RAWK. I’m sympathetic, Karius doesn’t the awful stick he’s getting from some of those rats.
But the last thing some of you lot need to do is put up a stern defense on a United forum.
Why are you guys always so obsessed, with things someone on another forum might say? It doesn't matter at all. Not in the slightest. What Liverpool fans might or might not do in a similar situation, should really not affect your judgement on something like this.
TLDR:
Just because some people are idiots, that doesn't mean you have to lower your own standards to the level of those idiots.