Loris Karius appreciation thread

It's really difficult to diagnose concussion as there are no set criteria for it.
Watching the game, I didn't feel that he was suffering from a concussion and if he indeed was physical/mental exertion would have worsened his condition.
If the diagnosis is based purely on history, I don't know how the doctor can reliably state that he had a concussion.
 
Liverpool doctors need to have a serious look at themselves as Mignolet also seems to play on a lot with concussions.
 
User 72192 said:
Yea, I doubt hindsight diagnosis from a doctor in hindsight when I know nothing about the tests he ran. Medicine is a highly inaccurate science at times, why not see the methods first and then believe whether something is true or not?
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Like I said, I'll trust the Harvard medical expert over a random United fan when it comes to brain injuries...
 
User 72192 said:
If you have no symptoms, surely we can agree that it wouldn't affect your game then.
Thing is, you call others incompetent, but you don't even know what kind of tests they ran. If there is some kind of hard evidence by which a concussion was diagnosed several days later still, I obviously will believe it. Until then, I think, given the context, this is just an excuse.
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I never said he had no symptoms. He could have suffered from many symptoms without realizing it. To others, he could still have looked absolutely normal. Especially to someone sitting far away. Like I said, you don't seem to understand how a concussion works.
I had one myself. I did not realize it for quite some time. Later on, I realized that I suffered from quite a few symptoms. It is absolute plausible to happen this way.
And again, you are arguing against a highly likely version of what happened. I think the burden of proof is on your side, not mine. My version, the official one, is highly logical, fits the narrative of what happened, fits the symptoms of a concussion and has been affirmed by recognized experts on the field. All you did was displaying a lack of understanding what a concussion actually is and how it might "work".

@massi83
Thanks for the tipp. Usually I would have, but I didn't feel the information at the time warranted a thread. I only read a transcript from an article I couldn't link.
 
Sanche7 said:
It's really difficult to diagnose concussion as there are no set criteria for it.
Watching the game, I didn't feel that he was suffering from a concussion and if he indeed was physical/mental exertion would have worsened his condition.
If the diagnosis is based purely on history, I don't know how the doctor can reliably state that he had a concussion.
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What I find peculiar is that they pinpointed that the concussion happened at a set point before he made his first ruck. Over a week after the event they can pinpoint the exact timing of the injury.
 
This is my concussion
Just when I thought I said all I could say this shit on my mind, said there must be one other way
Make up a concussion
 
What is it with the media making any excuse for the scousers? The excuses are starting to get a bit pathetic now.
 
Fully Fledged said:
What I find peculiar is that they pinpointed that the concussion happened at a set point before he made his first ruck. Over a week after the event they can pinpoint the exact timing of the injury.
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They said it's likely to have happened at that moment. Which is in no way peculiar. They observed the tape, after all. To say it's likely to have happened at that point, is absolutely plausible.
 
User 72192 said:
I'd first want to see the methods of said experts before I blindly believe in them. Medicine is highly inaccurate. Go to seven different doctors, you'll get seven different opinions.
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Again though, what gives your opinion on the matter any relevance over an expert in the field? Are you a doctor or someone who has thoroughly studied brain injuries? If not, sure, you can say you doubt all that stuff, but your opinion is entirely irrelevant and makes you sound pretty ignorant on the topic. You want to know the exact methods they use? Why, do you have some better methods of diagnosing concussions that has become normal practice around the world or are you some expert who has any voice on the matter of concussions?
 
HTG said:
They said it's likely to have happened at that moment. Which is in no way peculiar. They observed the tape, after all. To say it's likely to have happened at that point, is absolutely plausible.
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This thread is a cluster feck. Fans not wanting to change their narrative, like it matters? We're all delighted Liverpool lost. Doesnt mean that Karius didnt get a concussion just because hes been a mediocre goalkeeper in the past too.
 
HTG said:
They said it's likely to have happened at that moment. Which is in no way peculiar. They observed the tape, after all. To say it's likely to have happened at that point, is absolutely plausible.
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See you didn't reply to my post about him travelling by plane to a hospital that has had massive contributions from Arnold. Or that it is dangerous to travel with a concussion.
 
I find it really hard to believe that Karius had no symptoms and that the Liverpool medical team missed the diagnosis.
If he had even the slightest indication of concussion, I'm sure they would have diagnosed it.
There's this test called the King-Devick Sideline Test. It's so simple that even parents can do it and it takes like 2 minutes.

The King-Devick test is a screening tool for an injured athlete that is used on the sideline of a playing field. It can help to gauge the likelihood that a person has a concussion.
After a suspected head trauma, the athlete is given this two-minute test, during which he or she is asked to rapidly read single-digit numbers displayed on cards or on a mobile device. If the time needed to complete the test is longer than the time recorded at preseason baseline, the athlete is removed from play and evaluated by a healthcare professional.

If the Liverpool medical team failed to do that simple test even, then they deserve to be sacked.
But if they did it or any other test for that matter and reached a conclusion that Karius didn't suffer from any injury and if Karius himself did not experience any symptoms whatsoever, then you can't really call it a concussion, can you
 
User 72192 said:
Because I'm a lawyer that has had the doubtful fun to deal with doctors malpractice on a daily basis, basically. And - what I find completely common - because I actually like to question things presented as evidence and see what they're made of instead of just believing it. Questioning stuff is good, ok?
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Yeah, fine to be skeptical. But the accepted opinion and point in this case is it's a concussion. A very respected professional diagnosed him having a concussion (probably not the same type of medical professional you deal with). Video evidence of the game pointed to a possible concussion. Errors that happened afterwards are very possible that a concussion makes them more likely to happen, little lapses in judgement. You dont really get anywhere from doubting a concussion, especially in a case with this many things pointing towards one. And it's not like theres any way to prove otherwise, but that's on you/any doubters to prove there wasnt one and give a lot more evidence then what there is going for a concussion.
 
Sanche7 said:
I find it really hard to believe that Karius had no symptoms and that the Liverpool medical team missed the diagnosis.
If he had even the slightest indication of concussion, I'm sure they would have diagnosed it.
There's this test called the King-Devick Sideline Test. It's so simple that even parents can do it and it takes like 2 minutes.

The King-Devick test is a screening tool for an injured athlete that is used on the sideline of a playing field. It can help to gauge the likelihood that a person has a concussion.
After a suspected head trauma, the athlete is given this two-minute test, during which he or she is asked to rapidly read single-digit numbers displayed on cards or on a mobile device. If the time needed to complete the test is longer than the time recorded at preseason baseline, the athlete is removed from play and evaluated by a healthcare professional.

If the Liverpool medical team failed to do that simple test even, then they deserve to be sacked.
But if they did it or any other test for that matter and reached a conclusion that Karius didn't suffer from any injury and if Karius himself did not experience any symptoms whatsoever, then you can't really call it a concussion, can you
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The problem was that the play never stopped, he got elbowed in an off the ball incident that most people didnt see, rolled around a bit, got up cause no foul was called, and play just went on with him holding his head a bit. Shortly after the mistakes happened.
So without him going to people and saying he feels dazed, nobody would be able to tell until at the end of the game. And we're talking about a professional football player in a Champions League final. Theres not a chance in hell hes going to just walk off the field and say he has a concussion or feel like he might. Athletes get to that level with so much determination that theyll ignore so many signs of injuries and pain, especially in a final. The only thing that couldve happened in that case, was he himself sits down and tells the staff that he felt dazed. But like I said, who is going to do that in a CL final?
 
I thought he could have headed Bale's shot away but now we know why he didn't, ;).
 
If you watch the incident, you can see why perfect procedures weren't followed - the ref does a kind of walk-by assessment & wants to get on with the game. LFC bench don't appear to get involved at all & are 75yds away obviously.
 
Canny from Liverpool, getting an independent hospital to confirm this rather than their own internal medical department.

Gives more credence to what is otherwise very convenient news.
 
bosnian_red said:
The problem was that the play never stopped, he got elbowed in an off the ball incident that most people didnt see, rolled around a bit, got up cause no foul was called, and play just went on with him holding his head a bit. Shortly after the mistakes happened.
So without him going to people and saying he feels dazed, nobody would be able to tell until at the end of the game. And we're talking about a professional football player in a Champions League final. Theres not a chance in hell hes going to just walk off the field and say he has a concussion or feel like he might. Athletes get to that level with so much determination that theyll ignore so many signs of injuries and pain, especially in a final. The only thing that couldve happened in that case, was he himself sits down and tells the staff that he felt dazed. But like I said, who is going to do that in a CL final?
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IMO that's just incompetence.
If he felt like he was confused or not feeling 100%,he should have called for help, especially after conceding the first goal.
And it being a big occasion just makes the mistake even worse.
And also you make it sound like Karius is some amateur. Professional athletes are trained to judge the injuries they suffer, especially injuries to the head. They should know better than to continue playing with an injury, especially a concussion as a second blow could be lethal.And if the mistakes were because he didn't want to walk off despite knowing that he was injured, then he should be held accountable for it

If he only had minor symptoms which even he couldn't notice but somehow affected his performance, then I feel sorry for him
 
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User 72192 said:
I've worked with some so called experts and if you knew details you'd vomit to be honest.
Yea, well, I personally prefer to be convinced by evidence instead of just believing in it. Hence I'd like to know what tests they ran on him and whether these tests are reliable, subjective, objective, whatever. It wouldn't be the first time someone influenced his own medical examination to help himself. Also, why did he fly to the US several days later instead of going to a european expert? Surely said doctor isn't the only person who is able to diagnose a concussion?
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Feck knows, he had holidays in the states so Liverpool had him go there? Or maybe there was also an initial assessment after the game and that was part of the results. I just see no reason to doubt the doctor in this case with everything pointing towards a concussion. Its not like this stuff is publically visible. By your point of view you should doubt literally every single sporting injury unless you see a direct scan yourself, which of course isnt possible. So you turn it into "their words against mine", because you dont have access to their files.

I dont ser what they'd gain anyway. They still wouldve lost, even without an injury, but they did lose whatever the case. Karius could still have easily made a mistake and still has the reputation of a mediocre goalkeeper. I doubt they would go through all this effort and people risk their reputation just to get some fans to excuse him a bit for his errors, which still happened at the end of the day.

It's all just clutching at straws with no benefit or reason to tbh.
 
Fully Fledged said:
See you didn't reply to my post about him travelling by plane to a hospital that has had massive contributions from Arnold. Or that it is dangerous to travel with a concussion.
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I simply missed it. Mainly because I received quite a few notifications the last few hours.
Fully Fledged said:
And the Liverpool's owner has made significant donations to the hospital. It's a bit strange that he get's on a plane believing he has concussion and then flies to a hospital that has ties with Arnold. Why would he go to Massachusetts? It's hardly a holiday destination.
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I don't know Liverpool's owner. Wikipedia says the club is owned by the Fenway group. The whole article about that group makes no mention of anyone called Arnold. So I can't judge any potential contacts or donations right now. I would have to know more about the ownership structure.
But even if it happened the way you suggest, I still don't see a problem. This might very well have been the act of an employer who cares about his employee (or wants it to look that way) and thus set up a meeting with a specialist he knows and trusts. Don't think that would be any way peculiar and think it is something that happens quite often in US sports. Also, the US have become the leader on the topic, if I'm not mistaken and most experts live and work there. Simply because it is such a huge and controversial topic over there. To fly to the biggest experts in the world appears reasonable to me. I would do the same. It is absolutely possible, that the flight in itself did not pose any danger to Karius. I would assume, he got a check from other doctors beforehand. I think it's reasonable to assume, that they would have vetoed a flight that poses any risk.
 
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Totally made up I’m sure but very clever as it removes the embarrassment and lets loris get on with his career.
 
User 72192 said:
@bosnian_red

http://www.bbc.com/news/health-43490335
This for example is a mild case of experts in their field getting called out after people questioned and examined their methods and found they were basically shit. Stuff like that happens all the time in medicine. It's normal and it's okay, they're humans, nothing more. I always try to understand and see the methods, if they're convincing, sure, I won't have a hard time believing them. Until then, I prefer to be skeptical.
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That's perfectly fair. I'm just saying in this case, I dont see the point. The guy got elbowed in the side of the head. Showed 2 pretty severe signs of being dazed/lack of awareness with his 2 errors. Then presumably, tests afterwards. I dont see any reason to doubt it, because on replays it looked like it couldve been a concussion and now people are saying that it was.
 
If true, IF TRUE, then the Liverpool doctors need to change their protocol for dealing with blows to the head
 
1. Assuming that it was a concussion, what proof is there that it was due to his incident with Ramos (which was caused by VvD's push) and not some other incident in that day? None.

2. It should've been a penalty anyway, though if we wanted to deduce something it'd be the ref's mistake and the incompetency of Pool's medical staff.

3. If it means that Karius wasn't to be blamed and he should be Pool's starter in the future, just do it, they have my support.
 
Personally I think it this is the best solution for all parties regardless of the truth.

It gives a great boost to Karius self-confidence as there is a scape-goat. We need to remember that he is 24 old young man who horribly blundered in the final. I don't think he will be parading this as an excuse in the long term. But it does miracles to him to have a benefit of the doubt.

It comes off a little pathetic though. There will be some who will never believe the concussion and it's ok by me. I'm very sceptical too.

But Ramos really did what ever it took to win the final. He is just a master at those dirty little tricks seizing the opportunity at both cases. Vvd did push but the elbow was just brilliant opportunism. The same with Salah case. Ramos didn't engineer those incidents but you can always count on him to make the most of them. Personally I don't like players like him who deliberately seek to hurt others. I prefer the guys who try to minimize the damage to opponents. As I still play football with my own feet I detest those feckers who kick at opponents feet in spite.

I wish someone would elbow him real good for all the shit he has given others so we all could see him rolling on the grass for real and not just simulating. Preferably season ending injury for the little prick. He certainly is due one.
 
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Sanche7 said:
IMO that's just incompetence.
If he felt like he was confused or not feeling 100%,he should have called for help, especially after conceding the first goal.
And it being a big occasion just makes the mistake even worse.
And also you make it sound like Karius is some amateur. Professional athletes are trained to judge the injuries they suffer, especially injuries to the head. They should know better than to continue playing with an injury, especially a concussion as a second blow could be lethal.And if the mistakes were because he didn't want to walk off despite knowing that he was injured, then he should be held culpable for it

If he only had minor symptoms which even he couldn't notice but somehow affected his performance, then I feel sorry for him
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Put yourself in the shoes of a professional footballer in a CL final. Say you get a clear knock on your ankle that you're feeling. You dont just limp off the field and stop playing, they kill themselves to stay on the pitch in such a game and convince themselves theres nothing wrong. They might not even feel the injury until they're taken off and realize what's done. Hell, its happened before where someone breaks his leg but doesnt realize it right away and takes another step and then notices that in fact, his leg is broken. Or myself, I tore my ACL but for whatever reason convinced myself it was nothing so ended up finishing the practice and managed to somehow, though I was obviously fecked. Adrenaline, determination, and many other factors can cover up pain/discomfort during an event like that, but you'll still he affected. Yeah, hes a trained professional. So is Smalling, remember what happened against Leicester? Remember Ronaldo coming back on about 5 times in the European cup final even though his knee was fecked? In a final like that, these players put their careers on the line. Rarely will you see them admit to being injured.
 
RoyH1 said:
If true, IF TRUE, then the Liverpool doctors need to change their protocol for dealing with blows to the head
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All of football needs to change its protocol for dealing with blows to the head, not just Liverpool
 
MVBDX said:
1. Assuming that it was a concussion, what proof is there that it was due to his incident with Ramos (which was caused by VvD's push) and not some other incident in that day? None.

2. It should've been a penalty anyway, though if we wanted to deduce something it'd be the ref's mistake and the incompetency of Pool's medical staff.

3. If it means that Karius wasn't to be blamed and he should be Pool's starter in the future, just do it, they have my support.
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1. Well we dont video tape Karius' life, but during the game he got elbowed in the side of the head after which he fell, rolled around, then held his head quite a bit. Not hard to deduce that one.
2. True, not the point though.
3. Not the point.
 
Honestly. These cringeworthy council house vermin decided to spend a week and a half to get their keeper declared concussed to excuse getting twatted in a Champions League Final. If it was us? If it was De Gea? They’d be running circles around this on RAWK. I’m sympathetic, Karius doesn’t deserve the awful stick he’s getting from some of those rats.

But the last thing some of you lot need to do is put up a stern defense on a United forum.
 
This is an important development. And one I completely sympathise with. It's anecdotal evidence but a couple of seasons ago I was playing as a starter in goal. I had the worst week at work. 9 out of 10 on the stress level. During the game, I came out for a 1 on 1 and the forward accidentally elbowed me in the side of the head. My stress completely evaporated. I didn't know where I was or who I was. I floated through the rest of the game completely numb. Very weird.

The Karius situation looks strange in context of timing and potential absolvence of blame etc. But head injuries are beginning to be a big thing in American sports and they are right in getting him tested. I don't know how they can prove it so long after the fact (maybe post-match symptoms but that could have been due to lot of things linked to the stress of the game). But he did get elbowed and they do right in the bigger picture of highlighting the importance of identifying this incidents and treating them seriously.
 
0161_UNITED said:
Honestly. These cringeworthy council house vermin decided to spend a week and a half to get their keeper declared concussed to excuse getting twatted in a Champions League Final. If it was us? If it was De Gea? They’d be running circles around this on RAWK. I’m sympathetic, Karius doesn’t the awful stick he’s getting from some of those rats.

But the last thing some of you lot need to do is put up a stern defense on a United forum.
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Why are you guys always so obsessed, with things someone on another forum might say? It doesn't matter at all. Not in the slightest. What Liverpool fans might or might not do in a similar situation, should really not affect your judgement on something like this.
TLDR:
Just because some people are idiots, that doesn't mean you have to lower your own standards to the level of those idiots.
 
I think it's interesting that both the errors are a kind of split second thing. If he decides not to throw, he is fine, Benzema has just got in the way, he has a small amount of time to pull out doesn't he? And personally, I reckon he changed his mind on how to deal with the Bale shot at the very last second.
 
HTG said:
Why are you guys always so obsessed, with things someone on another forum might say? It doesn't matter at all. Not in the slightest. What Liverpool fans might or might not do in a similar situation, should really not affect your judgement on something like this.
TLDR:
Just because some people are idiots, that doesn't mean you have to lower your own standards to the level of those idiots.
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And they have a perfectly fine forum there to make excuses for their loss, and I’m sure they have all sorts that pretend to have medical expertise to make excuses for their GK mistakes. They’ll love it there. Mind where you are, and where you’re posting. This is a Manchester United forum, and you carrying on about sympathy for Karius (which I agree with ... a bit) is not the place for this nonsense. They had a shocker, from his performance, to medical staff response if he was concussed, is sound.

You want a lot of sympathy? You should go their forum with this nonsense.
 
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I wonder why he went all the way to a private hospital in Massachusetts, of which John Henry is a Trustee when he has the one of the best neurological units in the world on his doorstep?
 
0161_UNITED said:
And they have a perfectly fine forum there to make excuses for their loss, and I’m sure they have all sorts that pretend to have medical expertise to make excuses for their GK mistakes. They’ll love it there. Mind where you are, and where you’re posting. This is a Manchester United forum, and you carrying on about sympathy for Karius (which I agree with ... a bit) is not the place for this nonsense. They had a shocker, from his performance, to medical staff response if he was concussed, is sound.

You want a lot of sympathy? You should go their forum with this nonsense.
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Ah, the good old your opinion isnt welcome here go somewhere else. Way to keep an open mind:nono:
This is a forum. Karius thread is in the football forum. Theres plenty of opposition fans on redcafe and a big part of what makes redcafe better then most other forums imo is because it's very open to all opinions as it should be. Yeah, at the end of the day it's a United forum, but theres more then enough space for reasonable discussions and laughing at them. Your post is more along the lines of what youd see at Rawk with their attitude. Dont swoop down to their level.
 
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