Liverpool : General discussion

Disagree. Klopp won't overhaul the squad. Firstly because it's not terrible, secondly because it's been overhauled the past two seasons and thirdly, and most importantly, Klopp hasn't spent 6 months drilling a set of players to align to a way of playing for nothing. Already signs are good with some much improved players. Why would he start to threaten players with the heave?

Allen may leave, a few peripheral squad players will leave but the team last night will likely stay with possibly the odd surprise.

Don't necessarily think we'll sign a completely new 11 either, but there will be change and I definitely think some established first team players could be sold.

Can see a new starting GK, CB, LB, CM and forward come the start of the season in August.
 
Lovren has been better for about 5 minutes, barring an odd 4-5 month spell at Saints a couple of years ago. I'm quite convinced it's a good patch of form for Lovren and he will revert to type (= his career overall level) quite soon.

I don't think Sakho is the answer either though, especially with the style Klopp aims to implement.
I don't like the whole 'revert to type' thing. It implies that players can't improve because they've usually been poor in the past. I didn't think much of Smalling before this season but now I'd say he's the best CB in the league. Lovren's simply adjusted his game and focused on what he's good at. He doesn't try and play his way out constantly like Sakho does (leading to loss of possession in our own half) and I think Lovren actually reads situations fairly well for the most part.

We'll see how he progresses next season. I don't think he'll ever reach the highest level but if he can build on this form he'll become a good defender for us.
 
I rated Lovren when Liverpool first signed him, and while my opinion did change briefly after his torrid spell I still think he's a better CB than Sakho. Lovren's issue is that he really struggles to defend in wider areas. So when he was LCB he had to cover Moreno's flank a lot of the time and was exposed. I'm not sure who decided to switch him to RCB but with Clyne, who is pretty solid, beside him he is a lot more comfortable. I think Matip will be replacing Sakho as much as Liverpool fans rate him.
 
I don't like the whole 'revert to type' thing. It implies that players can't improve because they've usually been poor in the past. I didn't think much of Smalling before this season but now I'd say he's the best CB in the league. Lovren's simply adjusted his game and focused on what he's good at. He doesn't try and play his way out constantly like Sakho does (leading to loss of possession in our own half) and I think Lovren actually reads situations fairly well for the most part.

We'll see how he progresses next season. I don't think he'll ever reach the highest level but if he can build on this form he'll become a good defender for us.
Sure, fair enough. I just find it very hard to rate him at all given how he was at Lyon, and then during most of his time at Liverpool. But I may be wrong.
 
Don't necessarily think we'll sign a completely new 11 either, but there will be change and I definitely think some established first team players could be sold.

Can see a new starting GK, CB, LB, CM and forward come the start of the season in August.
I agree new players will be bought but it'll be squad players to make way none of whom started on Thursday - Bogdan, Enrique, Skrtle, Ibe, Allen, Benteke.

We need stronger back up. Eg Mingolet is not the best but would like him in the squad.
 
Moreno is just too brainless to sustain at FB, (thought Klopp was trying really hard not to play him there after the Norwich chaos?)

And get a new GK would be what I'd do, generating 2 easy improvements straightaway.

Then see if Benteke + Balotelli going out, would = a proper forward coming in with fee/wages covered if the 2 go

Unwanted departures are possible too - Coutinho & Studge being in the frame for this category maybe.

Unwanted arrival category ---> Mark:lol:vic returns, and he'll be difficult to shift too, owing to being completely shite - the Depay situation as I understand it is called these days
 
Moreno is just too brainless to sustain at FB, (thought Klopp was trying really hard not to play him there after the Norwich chaos?)

And get a new GK would be what I'd do, generating 2 easy improvements straightaway.

Then see if Benteke + Balotelli going out, would = a proper forward coming in with fee/wages covered if the 2 go

Unwanted departures are possible too - Coutinho & Studge being in the frame for this category maybe.

Unwanted arrival category ---> Mark:lol:vic returns, and he'll be difficult to shift too, owing to being completely shite - the Depay situation as I understand it is called these days
Moreno is ok but daft. He actually had a very good game on Thursday. I'd definitely keep him despite his flaws. Agree about Mingolet, but wouldn't sell. He's better than a lot of keepers in the PL but I'd like him as a solid back up.

Apparently Klopp was flabbergasted about Markovic being loaned out - will be interesting to see him a year older under Klopp. Not sure what he'll become though. Not pinning next season on his shoulders.
 
Marković deserves a chance, say 6 months as a squad player to see how he does under Klopp. To be honest I think it was a ludicrous decision to loan him out anyway - on the whole he had a poor first season but he showed some signs towards the end that he could turn it around.

Moreno I like. I'm in the minority there. He's clearly quite poor defensively but if we need his pace going forward and think he complements Clyne's solid but not overly dangerous style. Just needs to find more consistency.

Mignolet should go. We can't really afford such a highly paid back-up.
 
I wouldn't be down on Moreno for lack of ability, definitely not. But I don't think the loony tendencies will ever go. Even with a steadier guy on the other side it will fall down in matches vs. the very top sides because their first tactic will be to pin him into defensive areas & then also overload on that side when they can to pressure him into doing something silly. And keeping him deep makes him less dangerous anyway and is your best plan. But he has got something, totally agree.

Suppose he needs a high composure attribute editing in & you could well have a properly good player.
 
I wouldn't be down on Moreno for lack of ability, definitely not. But I don't think the loony tendencies will ever go. Even with a steadier guy on the other side it will fall down in matches vs. the very top sides because their first tactic will be to pin him into defensive areas & then also overload on that side when they can to pressure him into doing something silly. And keeping him deep makes him less dangerous anyway and is your best plan. But he has got something, totally agree.

Suppose he needs a high composure attribute editing in & you could well have a properly good player.
It might suit him more to be moved to a left wing position, with another LB behind him. Defensively he's rash in the challenge, often tackling with the wrong foot. He's weak positionally as well getting caught high up the pitch. I'd like to see someone else brought in as a LB or Flanagan brought in maybe.
 
It might suit him more to be moved to a left wing position, with another LB behind him. Defensively he's rash in the challenge, often tackling with the wrong foot. He's weak positionally as well getting caught high up the pitch. I'd like to see someone else brought in as a LB or Flanagan brought in maybe.

Don't think left wing would suit him. He's good at running on to the ball but if he was to play as a winger he'd have to vastly improve his ability at dribbling. Left wing back would be ideal if we played that, otherwise I think the way to go is Moreno left back with a solid left centre back who can cover for him and let him go forward.

Didn't Moreno win the EL in 13/14 with Sevilla?

Yeah. Had a good season then, shocking in the final itself though.
 
Moreno just makes me think of this.



He's a failed youth winger with no defensive talent. Clyne is the exact opposite (useless as hell going forward, solid at the back).
 
Moreno I like. I'm in the minority there. He's clearly quite poor defensively but if we need his pace going forward and think he complements Clyne's solid but not overly dangerous style. Just needs to find more consistency.
What I don't get though is Smith is faster (fastest player at the club), better defensively and a far better crosser of the ball. So why isn't he in ahead of Moreno ? Yes, he's relatively inexperienced but there has to be something missing in training.
 


He's a failed youth winger with no defensive talent. Clyne is the exact opposite (useless as hell going forward, solid at the back).


You appear to talk in exaggeration - the bolded bits are not really true, are they?
 
What I don't get though is Smith is faster (fastest player at the club), better defensively and a far better crosser of the ball. So why isn't he in ahead of Moreno ? Yes, he's relatively inexperienced but there has to be something missing in training.

Was he not injured recently or am I imagining that?
 
You appear to talk in exaggeration - the bolded bits are not really true, are they?

Not far from it. I'm a big fan of Clyne, but going forward, he's average at best.
 
I don't think Clyne is average. Generally I think there are two phases of play for fullbacks in possession that lots fail to recognise.

Building from the back and contributing in the final third. Building from the back is a really crucial ability that doesn't require great technical ability but requires composure and decision making. Carragher suxked at it obviously and his preference for hitting iti long or passing it to the keeper was notable.

Arbeloa somehow escaped criticism for his lacking ability in this area because he was a willing runner in the final third with ok technique who was a decent outlet in space. Compress play a bit and put him under a bit of pressure and he couldn't solve any problems for his teammates when building from the back and was liable to lose possession. Finnan was miles ahead of Arbeloa because he could solve problems for his teammates in all phases of play. Johnson obviously was a level above all of them on the ball.

Clyne is a bit of the opposite to Arbeloa.He doesn't offer much in the final third, but he is comfortable in building play from the back, reliable in possession and knows what to do with it before he gets into the final third. He reminds me more of Babbel, though less imperious and assertive in his actions. But I think he could reach a similar level of balance of combining solid defensive displays and buildup with a reliable outlet in the final third.
 
2015/16 season, all games.

Origi : 1 goal per 189 mins
Martial : 1 goal per 285 mins

I truly like both players and there is clearly huge potential in both but it's great to see that Origi growing in confidence and displaying some real quality in control, pace, strength and a 'match brain', something Ibe, for example, who also has all the skills, consistently fails to demonstrate.
 
Arbeloa somehow escaped criticism for his lacking ability in this area because he was a willing runner in the final third with ok technique who was a decent outlet in space. Compress play a bit and put him under a bit of pressure and he couldn't solve any problems for his teammates when building from the back and was liable to lose possession. Finnan was miles ahead of Arbeloa because he could solve problems for his teammates in all phases of play. Johnson obviously was a level above all of them on the ball.
Andre Santos was the master at this. :nervous: Basically played like an extra midfielder.
 
2015/16 season, all games.

Origi : 1 goal per 189 mins
Martial : 1 goal per 285 mins

I truly like both players and there is clearly huge potential in both but it's great to see that Origi growing in confidence and displaying some real quality in control, pace, strength and a 'match brain', something Ibe, for example, who also has all the skills, consistently fails to demonstrate.

Martial is light years ahead of Origi.
 
2015/16 season, all games.

Origi : 1 goal per 189 mins
Martial : 1 goal per 285 mins

I truly like both players and there is clearly huge potential in both but it's great to see that Origi growing in confidence and displaying some real quality in control, pace, strength and a 'match brain', something Ibe, for example, who also has all the skills, consistently fails to demonstrate.

Amazing when one has played more and played most of his games as a LW rather than a ST.....
 
That is a disingenuous comparison, Martial has made almost double the amount of appearances as Origi and you have chosen to take a snap shot of the stats when the latter is in a rich vein of form.
 
Yeah I'm going to go with the general consensus that Martial is ahead of Origi.
 
Yeah I'm going to go with the general consensus that Martial is ahead of Origi.
There's no shame in that, Martial is one of the most promising and talented youngsters in the world right now.

Origi has made several steps forward this season and improved drastically over the course of the season. He was very poor in the beginning of the season, but isn't bullied so easily anymore. His work ethic in training is supposedly great as well and he's added more than 5kg since his arrival. He's no Martial but nevertheless could become a very good player for us.

Such goal comparisons are indeed useless though.
 
Silly comparison. Martial could be the younger injury free Sturridge whereas Origi is starting to look the Lukaku/Drogba type.

Origi is really strong, this hasn't been fully appreciated yet. Watch big defenders bounce off him.
 
Origi looks like he could develop into something good, looks like hes spent some time beefing up too

Reckon in the summer LFC will have a new CB (already 1 incoming confirmed), 1 new LB, new CF and possibly even a new CM.

Outgoing will be the likes of Allen, Benteke, and may surprise us by selling Sturridge too
 
2015/16 season, all games.

Origi : 1 goal per 189 mins
Martial : 1 goal per 285 mins

I truly like both players and there is clearly huge potential in both but it's great to see that Origi growing in confidence and displaying some real quality in control, pace, strength and a 'match brain', something Ibe, for example, who also has all the skills, consistently fails to demonstrate.
Stupid comparison. Martial has played the majority of this season on the left.
 
There's no shame in that, Martial is one of the most promising and talented youngsters in the world right now.

Origi has made several steps forward this season and improved drastically over the course of the season. He was very poor in the beginning of the season, but isn't bullied so easily anymore. His work ethic in training is supposedly great as well and he's added more than 5kg since his arrival. He's no Martial but nevertheless could become a very good player for us.

Such goal comparisons are indeed useless though.
Yeah I read about him adding muscle on as well. Compared to how poor he was early on, he's done well to progress and become a very good option for us up top.

Seems like Ibe is going the other way which is a shame.
 
Im still not sold on Klopp. The way he plays football is such that he is definitely going to hand out a few thrashings. But I don't think it's a style that will win any Premier League titles.

That said, I'm smart enough to judge him properly next season after he has had a Summer and pre-season.

And a Klopp lead Liverpool will finish at least 20 points higher than an LvG lead United
 
I love how Rafateria brings up these type of stats! :lol:

Gotta admit, they do make me laugh :lol: If there was a stat showing Clyne takes an equal amount of touches with each foot, & Shaw takes them 55/45 in favour of his left, he'd probably use it to argue that Clyne is the better/more natural player with the ball at his feet.

Origi looks like he could develop into something good, looks like hes spent some time beefing up too

Reckon in the summer LFC will have a new CB (already 1 incoming confirmed), 1 new LB, new CF and possibly even a new CM.

Outgoing will be the likes of Allen, Benteke, and may surprise us by selling Sturridge too

He's doing pretty well for a 20 year old in his first season in a new league. Hopefully Ings will come back decent, too.

Allen should stay as an impact player, Henderson should go, and we should be bringing in the best CM we can afford.

Benteke should go, Sturridge should go, and we should be bringing in the best striker we can afford.
 
Yeah I'm going to go with the general consensus that Martial is ahead of Origi.
As would I.

Martial is light years ahead of Origi.
Based on ? Ahead most certainly yes, light years ? I think not. After all if it was light years then that stat woudl be reversed.

Amazing when one has played more and played most of his games as a LW rather than a ST.....
Stupid comparison. Martial has played the majority of this season on the left.
So that means that you two actually have no idea where Origi has played most for Liverpool then. Hint : not mostly as a striker.

That is a disingenuous comparison, Martial has made almost double the amount of appearances as Origi and you have chosen to take a snap shot of the stats when the latter is in a rich vein of form.
It's not disingenuous at all, it's a fact. And do we start discounting matches because they don't suit your ideal ? A snapshot is just that, at this moment in time. Most probably Martial will have his own rich vein of form and totally reverse that stat and as I said right from the moment Martial landed on these shores, United have bought themselves a real star in the making, whether he lives up to his fee in the end is another matter but there is no doubting Martial's quality and next season wil be major for him under a new manager.

What has to be said is that Origi was slagged off left right and centre on this forum. I'm not seeing those same comments any more. Origi was unlucky early doors with plenty of niggly injuries but he's spent that down time working on upper body strength and one can see how confident and powerful he is now. He could still be better in front of goal but he is making a very solid contribution and it's something Liverpool supporters can feel good about after so many transfer failures.
 
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Silly comparison. Martial could be the younger injury free Sturridge whereas Origi is starting to look the Lukaku/Drogba type.

Origi is really strong, this hasn't been fully appreciated yet. Watch big defenders bounce off him.
And of course we never, ever, compare the goal scoring records and contributions of different style strikers do we.
 
Origi looks like he could develop into something good, looks like hes spent some time beefing up too

Reckon in the summer LFC will have a new CB (already 1 incoming confirmed), 1 new LB, new CF and possibly even a new CM.

Outgoing will be the likes of Allen, Benteke, and may surprise us by selling Sturridge too
I think we may well see another inbound CB (in addition to Matip that is), I'd love a new starting LB because I'm not sold on Moreno and although Gomez looks our best option there his long term future looks to be at CB. Klopp is definitely going to strengthen to strengthen the wings with pace. Unfortunately Ibe is looking less and less likely to make it there (the problems seem to be in his head) and he could be on his way but there is always Ojo who has looked brilliant for the U21 so it remains to be seen if he can make the step up.
I can't see any way Benteke is going to still be around but Allen is showing himself to be well worth a place in the squad, whether that's enough for him personally we'll have to see. We have enough squad players though so I'd like to see a starter in the form of a 'Matic' style player because Lucas may well depart.
 
2015/16 season, all games.

Origi : 1 goal per 189 mins
Martial : 1 goal per 285 mins

I truly like both players and there is clearly huge potential in both but it's great to see that Origi growing in confidence and displaying some real quality in control, pace, strength and a 'match brain', something Ibe, for example, who also has all the skills, consistently fails to demonstrate.

Rashford: 1 goal per 139 minutes.

What do you think about that?

You know what it tells me? Not that he is a better goalscorer than Origi. If he plays more his goalscoring will average out.