Liverpool 2018/19

[TheReligion]

I agree. There are bigger expectations at Man United because, like I said, you have been succesful.

And I don't think anything about how you would have liked Klopp or not. I merely stated the obvious, that it adds to the pressure, when the fans are divided in their support. That's not a dig at you, if you thought that..

And yes.. We, the fans, are happy and united for the time being. It feels great. Long may it last.

And I will say this.. I'd rather play entertaining attacking football without winning, than boring defensive football without winning.

That's the issue though. Klopp has won nothing at Liverpool whilst Mourinho has at United. He's also took United to their highest league finish post Sir Alex Ferguson and got us firmly back into the CL.

 

[TheReligion]

Bulaks.

Actually up until the summer of 2018 ,Your net spend was £80 million higher than ours. Ours was minus £30 million and yours was £50 million. Ours currently stands at £135.5 million. You've still to spend, therefore your net spend will increase closing that gap.

So what? United overall make more money than Liverpool so can afford to lose the net spend trophy.

 

[automaticflare]

Bulaks.

Actually up until the summer of 2018 ,Your net spend was £80 million higher than ours. Ours was minus £30 million and yours was £50 million. Ours currently stands at £135.5 million. You've still to spend, therefore your net spend will increase closing that gap.

This is feckig stupid. Where did this net spend bollox come from.

In last few years we have also lost players like Rio carrick Rooney who cost us a pittance based on how long they played and stayed and had zero resale value or retired. The same will happen with Valencia and young too.

The same will likely happen with players like lukaku and hopefully pogba and if not we will get a shit load of cash from them.

Since Jose came in we started getting some real money for our players like depay schmeiderlin blind and even Johnstone who went for 7m.

And even at that who gives a feck about net spend anyways it just something new that has come about in last few years for some reason and I don’t know why, usually by Liverpool fans when people point out they haven’t won anything. Oh our net spend is so low. It is because your best players like Suarez sterling and coutinho all wanted to leave to go fecking win some trophies

 

[Halds]

That's the issue though. Klopp has won nothing at Liverpool whilst Mourinho has at United. He's also took United to their highest league finish post Sir Alex Ferguson and got us firmly back into the CL.

You won a league cup, and a Europa League.. That's all good, but it's hardly these trophies Mourinho was hired for, or the ones you're aiming for, is it?

We both know that there are two trophies that are head and shoulders above the rest, and since Ferguson, you have been just as far away from them as we have.

You want PL and CL as bad as we do, the rest are just consolation prizes. They are nice to win but don't bother explaining to me, how important they are.

 

[Djemba-Djemba]

You won a league cup, and a Europa League.. That's all good, but it's hardly these trophies Mourinho was hired for, or the ones you're aiming for, is it?

We both know that there are two trophies that are head and shoulders above the rest, and since Ferguson, you have been just as far away from them as we have.

You want PL and CL as bad as we do, the rest are just consolation prizes. They are nice to win but don't bother explaining to me, how important they are.

Well it's been so long since you won anything maybe you do need it explaining to you.

 

[TheReligion]

You won a league cup, and a Europa League.. That's all good, but it's hardly these trophies Mourinho was hired for, or the ones you're aiming for, is it?

We both know that there are two trophies that are head and shoulders above the rest, and since Ferguson, you have been just as far away from them as we have.

You want PL and CL as bad as we do, the rest are just consolation prizes. They are nice to win but don't bother explaining to me, how important they are.

That's all good and well but I was highlighting the little dig you were trying to get in about United playing defensive football and losing simply isn't true..

Since Fergie retired, and despite some of our worst ever form, squad overhauls and manager changes we have still managed to win an FA cup, League Cup and the Europa League. We have also got back into the top 4 and last season finished 2nd, our highest finish post SAF.

Yes things aren't great but compared to what Klopp and Liverpool have achieved in the same time span...? I would take the silverwear and cementing ourselves as the most successful English club of all time everyday of the week.

 

[Vidyoyo]

Can't believe Sturridge is still there.

 

[Ramshock]

Can't believe Sturridge is still there.

Markovic too

 

[Halds]

That's all good and well but I was highlighting the little dig you were trying to get in about United playing defensive football and losing simply isn't true..

Since Fergie retired, and despite some of our worst ever form, squad overhauls and manager changes we have still managed to win an FA cup, League Cup and the Europa League. We have also got back into the top 4 and last season finished 2nd, our highest finish post SAF.

Yes things aren't great but compared to what Klopp and Liverpool have achieved in the same time span...? I would take the silverwear and cementing ourselves as the most successful English club of all time everyday of the week.

The little dig was a reply to the dig in the post I quoted.

I see your point. But still, a lot of you are grumbling and mourning over your manager and your team, where as we don't. I'm not trying to wum or anything, it's just the way it is.

Different expectations at our clubs is one thing, and whether you like it or not, the excitement watching the games play a part too.

 

[UnrelatedPsuedo]

This is feckig stupid. Where did this net spend bollox come from.

In last few years we have also lost players like Rio carrick Rooney who cost us a pittance based on how long they played and stayed and had zero resale value or retired. The same will happen with Valencia and young too.

The same will likely happen with players like lukaku and hopefully pogba and if not we will get a shit load of cash from them.

Since Jose came in we started getting some real money for our players like depay schmeiderlin blind and even Johnstone who went for 7m.

And even at that who gives a feck about net spend anyways it just something new that has come about in last few years for some reason and I don’t know why, usually by Liverpool fans when people point out they haven’t won anything. Oh our net spend is so low. It is because your best players like Suarez sterling and coutinho all wanted to leave to go fecking win some trophies

NET spend is a fecking ridiculous metric and it always has been.

Bigger clubs rarely sell their best players so net spend always sees them fare badly in comparison. Anyone that cannot see how flawed it is, is not worth wasting oxygen on.

Transfer fees both in and out are metrics of financial management. Not on-pitch footballing performance.

 

[AshRK]

I agree. There are bigger expectations at Man United because, like I said, you have been succesful.

And I don't think anything about how you would have liked Klopp or not. I merely stated the obvious, that it adds to the pressure, when the fans are divided in their support. That's not a dig at you, if you thought that..

And yes.. We, the fans, are happy and united for the time being. It feels great. Long may it last.

And I will say this.. I'd rather play entertaining attacking football without winning, than boring defensive football without winning.

That's what arsenal fans used to say about Wenger form 06 to 10. How did that work out for them? Winning breeds success. You cannot be the best without winning.

 

[J_XO]

That's what arsenal fans used to say about Wenger form 06 to 10. How did that work out for them? Winning breeds success. You cannot be the best without winning.

Read it again, play with style without winning > boring football and still not winning

 

[AshRK]

Read it again, play with style without winning > boring football and still not winning

Not winning = not winning.

 

[ShadesOfTomato]

We're still a CB and another attacker off having a proper title challenging squad.

 

[automaticflare]

We're still a CB and another attacker off having a proper title challenging squad.

Made some
Signings to address your most deficient areas but an untested midfield and goalkeeper in the premier league I would have concerns about. I think Fabinho will close some gaps defensively but I don’t think he is going to set the world alight

 

[ShadesOfTomato]

Made some
Signings to address your most deficient areas but an untested midfield and goalkeeper in the premier league I would have concerns about. I think Fabinho will close some gaps defensively but I don’t think he is going to set the world alight

I feel Klopp will use Milner/Henderson/Wijnaldum a fair amount whilst Fabinho and Keita are introduced to the league.

More concerned about depth upfront. Sturridge can barely run, and Solanke has done nothing of note to inspire any confidence in the event of a Firmino injury.

NET spend is a fecking ridiculous metric and it always has been.

Bigger clubs rarely sell their best players so net spend always sees them fare badly in comparison. Anyone that cannot see how flawed it is, is not worth wasting oxygen on.

Transfer fees both in and out are metrics of financial management. Not on-pitch footballing performance.

Financial management is absolutely related to a club's performance on the pitch. If you can buy without selling, you're going to have a stronger team on the field. Simple.

 

[UnrelatedPsuedo]

Financial management is absolutely related to a club's performance on the pitch. If you can buy without selling, you're going to have a stronger team on the field. Simple.

Aside from being the most obvious thing ever written, How is that even vaguely related to what I said?

Teams like United rarely sell their best players. They also buy (historically) from the top of the market. Those two things will never reconcile in a Net Spend table.

Teams like Liverpool & Spurs sell their top players all the time. They will always be higher in these tables due to this. It's a pointless metric.

 

[ShadesOfTomato]

Aside from being the most obvious thing ever written, How is that even vaguely related to what I said?

Teams like United rarely sell their best players. They also buy (historically) from the top of the market. Those two things will never reconcile in a Net Spend table.

Teams like Liverpool & Spurs sell their top players all the time. They will always be higher in these tables due to this. It's a pointless metric.

You are trying to separate financial matters from footballing matters. The two are interlinked.

Tottenham and Liverpool can point to net spent being a significant metric because they are competing at the top levels without unchecked investment.

They sell their best players, you say? That clearly then has an effect on the pitch, does it not? So to say that Liverpool have spent 160 million pounds this summer without taking into the account the sale of Coutinho and various other players over the past couple of years is to ignore important context. Their spending is a result of previous sales. Contrast that to Manchester City or Manchester Utd - who spend whatever they like, and it becomes clear that there is a discrepancy in resources available to each club. Expectations are adjusted accordingly.

It is obvious indeed. Basic economics. No idea why you're struggling to understand it.

 

[UnrelatedPsuedo]

You are trying to separate financial matters from footballing matters. The two are interlinked.

Tottenham and Liverpool can point to net spent being a significant metric because they are competing at the top levels without unchecked investment.

They sell their best players, you say? That clearly then has an effect on the pitch, does it not? So to say that Liverpool have spent 160 million pounds this summer without taking into the account the sale of Coutinho and various other players over the past couple of years is to ignore important context. Their spending is a result of previous sales. Contrast that to Manchester City or Manchester Utd - who spend whatever they like, and it becomes clear that there is a discrepancy in resources available to each club. Expectations are adjusted accordingly.

It is obvious indeed. Basic economics. No idea why you're struggling to understand it.

Ok. Let's interlink them.

Spurs and Liverpool should do far better than they do as they have a revenue stream (huge value player sales) that top clubs don't have access to.

We can address the football impact of selling Bale or Coutinho but to simply take their incoming transfer fees that period and offset them against spend, to come up with a +/- $ value, then claim that it means anything is ridiculous. It doesn't.

Net spend is a lowest common denominator weapon for mouth breathers to throw around. It doesn't take so many variables into account. It's. Pointless.

 

[Theodore]

But you got less points last season so I do not understand your point

Also no trophies

So doesn’t make sense

Thinking nothing of a Champions League final is crass. I hope that not the majority of Man Utd fans feel that way, because if so, the next few years won't be happy.

 

[montpelier]

If you spend £ 500 M on players & you put them on the park - you are still putting £ 500 M worth of players on the park. It isn't less because you've sold £ 300 M worth of players. You are dining at the same table, you're just doing it in a different way.

You might do it less often, but when you're doing it, you're still doing it. Net spend being used to make this disappear is just total bollocks.

 

[Hazza83]

Ok. Let's interlink them.

Spurs and Liverpool should do far better than they do as they have a revenue stream (huge value player sales) that top clubs don't have access to.

We can address the football impact of selling Bale or Coutinho but to simply take their incoming transfer fees that period and offset them against spend, to come up with a +/- $ value, then claim that it means anything is ridiculous. It doesn't.

Net spend is a lowest common denominator weapon for mouth breathers to throw around. It doesn't take so many variables into account. It's. Pointless.

Interesting Points.

Perhaps it might be worth taking into consideration what bucket clubs would rather sit in.

Would they rather be in United’s situation (managing to hang on to their best players to the point those players leave for minimal amounts once they have aged and spent their best years at the club) or in Spurs/Liverpool’s position where they have sold their best players for significant £ as they are just hitting their primes.

I’d hazard a guess most clubs would prefer to be in United’s situation. I believe Spurs wanted to hang on to Modric and Bale but let them go reluctantly. I’m sure the same is true for Liverpool wrt Suarez, Sterling, Coutinho.

The argument that United’s net spend would be high because they are replacing old players holds some substance but it would also make sense that by buying good players and holding on to them for the longer term, you spend significantly less owing to low turnover of players, not to mention associated transaction fees. Contrast this with the extra risk Spurs and Liverpool need to accept of replacing proven performers with lesser known quantities and I’d think that overall, United’s situation in terms of being able to hold on to their best players has been much more favourable to them than Spurs/ Liverpool.

 

[jack1092]

Aside from the net-spend debate, even though it's only preseason is it bad i'd rather see Markovic on the bench this season than origi or Solanke? Origi running about like he's towing a caravan and Solanke needs a loan...

None are idea of course, but it does show, once you get past the first 11 attack, we are still very light.

Perhaps at times we will change the formation to allow for one of the front 3 to be rested...

 

[Havak]

I don't get why people even argue money spent now. Who cares anymore, every big side with ambitions to win the big trophies is going to have to spend hundreds of millions. Not really fussed if one team spends £50million more than another, I bet historically around 50% of signings aren't even classed as successful...

 

[Pexbo]

If you spend £ 500 M on players & you put them on the park - you are still putting £ 500 M worth of players on the park. It isn't less because you've sold £ 300 M worth of players. You are dining at the same table, you're just doing it in a different way.

You might do it less often, but when you're doing it, you're still doing it. Net spend being used to make this disappear is just total bollocks.

What’s more is that the position you started in was also strong. Considering you had £300m worth of players to dispose of.

 

[SER19]

If you spend £ 500 M on players & you put them on the park - you are still putting £ 500 M worth of players on the park. It isn't less because you've sold £ 300 M worth of players. You are dining at the same table, you're just doing it in a different way.

You might do it less often, but when you're doing it, you're still doing it. Net spend being used to make this disappear is just total bollocks.

Youre forgetting that liverpool fans are OBSESSED with net spend. It came to the fore under benitez. I dont think ive ever spoken to a liverpool fan generally about the game, without net spend being mentioned. Capitalising on panic and an insane market to fleece barcelona is a fee that should be deducted, but angel di maria will still be called a 60m waste of money. Theyre incredibly selective in interpreting things.

I think theyve spent well and like city last season theyve improved on their weaknesses (which im concerned we haven't). Even so there's a lot of people getting carried away, any defence with lovren at the heart is suspect, in an ideal world the middle of the park can be overhauled and click instantly but that isnt always the case and the big trick will be getting the front 3 to reach something close to last years efforts while also keeping the likes of shaqiri happy.

If it clicks they certainly have a team on paper that could compete until the end, if not- being liverpol- they could finish 5th. Will be an interesting season as if they disimprove, where does that leave klopp after such huge spending. First time there's pressure on him.

 

[SER19]

What’s more is that the position you started in was also strong. Considering you had £300m worth of players to dispose of.

Exactly

 

[5red]

If you spend £ 500 M on players & you put them on the park - you are still putting £ 500 M worth of players on the park. It isn't less because you've sold £ 300 M worth of players. You are dining at the same table, you're just doing it in a different way.

You might do it less often, but when you're doing it, you're still doing it. Net spend being used to make this disappear is just total bollocks.

The difference it makes (net spend) is not the starting 11 but the depth of quality on the bench.

 

[ariveded]

1st season ever for LFC where 4th cannot be the minimum expectation. They have to aim for the title now. Thus, question is will Klopp be sacked if he finishes 4th or below? I certainly think so, as all the other rivals will sack their managers.

 

[baby keith]

8 years ago Joe Cole on a free was all we could afford so it's nice to be even having this daft net spend spat with united fans.

Both clubs generate their own money and can spend it in pursuit of success.
I think the net spend factor is more about how happy the owners will be as it's them who benefit.

As a fan i don't care as long as the spending is sustainable. We certainly seem to be getting more bang for our buck lately.

 

[Halds]

Are some people arguing, if it's an advantage or disadvantage losing your best players? Or that it means nothing?

May I suggest you offload de Gea then? Afterwards we can talk about, whether we should expect the results to be the same for you.

This stupid netspend debate is about expectations. If you spend money, expectations rise. If you sell your best players, expectations fall.

So until you start selling your best players regularly, or we stop doing it, we are not the same place regarding expectations.

 

[padzilla]

Fair play to Liverpool, they're one of the elite clubs in England so it's only right they should spending serious money. As a United fan, let's be honest, we all loved the rivalry when they were challenging for major trophies under Benitez and for those of us of a certain vintage, under Dalglish as well. It makes it all the more sweeter when we beat our biggest rivals to trophies. We should embrace the challenge and not get involved in petty squabbling. Plus United make so much money that what Liverpool spend should not be an issue for us, we have to resources to do what we do and not have to worry about others. It looks to me like it comes down to how clubs are being run and there are serious question marks over Woodward's run in charge of United from the top down. There is more to a club than flashing cash and signing everything in sight.

 

[jack1092]

Youre forgetting that liverpool fans are OBSESSED with net spend. It came to the fore under benitez. I dont think ive ever spoken to a liverpool fan generally about the game, without net spend being mentioned. Capitalising on panic and an insane market to fleece barcelona is a fee that should be deducted, but angel di maria will still be called a 60m waste of money. Theyre incredibly selective in interpreting things.

I think theyve spent well and like city last season theyve improved on their weaknesses (which im concerned we haven't). Even so there's a lot of people getting carried away, any defence with lovren at the heart is suspect, in an ideal world the middle of the park can be overhauled and click instantly but that isnt always the case and the big trick will be getting the front 3 to reach something close to last years efforts while also keeping the likes of shaqiri happy.

If it clicks they certainly have a team on paper that could compete until the end, if not- being liverpol- they could finish 5th. Will be an interesting season as if they disimprove, where does that leave klopp after such huge spending. First time there's pressure on him.

To be fair to LFC fans including myself, we have recently (since Hicks+Gillet) been operating under a stricter budget due to rebuilding after they f'd things up. Thus, for a good while the purse strings were tightened and net spend was something LFC had to take into consideration. Obviously, this has changed recently due to more sensible and proper ownership. Going forward i would hope that we don't have to look at Salah etc. and go, well we got 200mill for him after he cost us 36mill....I still think this will be difficult to achieve, as once Barca + RM come calling it'll test us again.

I agree Lovren isn't perfect, and he tricks us into a false sense of security whereby he plays well for 9 games, and then has an absolute shocker the next. However, in saying that, there aren't millions available at a much higher standard, i would say there are some that are more consistent that him, but probably don't perform as well as him on a good day. Still, probably consistency is what i'd prefer. Shaqiri has come to LFC knowing where he stands, will want to try and break into the side, but it'll be very difficult.

On Klopp, i think he's got enough brownie points saved up, LFC aren't a side to panic or be incredibly ruthless like a Chelsea + sack him. From what i've heard the owners are using him as a manager to learn from as well, and are taking his opinions about the clubs growth very seriously. Obviously, he will have extra pressures from the media and fans but ownership wise it will take something mad to change their tune.

Fair play to Liverpool, they're one of the elite clubs in England so it's only right they should spending serious money. As a United fan, let's be honest, we all loved the rivalry when they were challenging for major trophies under Benitez and for those of us of a certain vintage, under Dalglish as well. It makes it all the more sweeter when we beat our biggest rivals to trophies. We should embrace the challenge and not get involved in petty squabbling. Plus United make so much money that what Liverpool spend should not be an issue for us, we have to resources to do what we do and not have to worry about others. It looks to me like it comes down to how clubs are being run and there are serious question marks over Woodward's run in charge of United from the top down. There is more to a club than flashing cash and signing everything in sight.

Good post in general. Rivalries are what it's about!

 

[TheReligion]

Thinking nothing of a Champions League final is crass. I hope that not the majority of Man Utd fans feel that way, because if so, the next few years won't be happy.

Having had a period of reaching 3 CL finals in 4 years, and winning only 1, I can safely say the ones you lose mean pretty much feck all and are quickly forgotten.

What you remember is success and trophies.

 

[Theodore]

Having had a period of reaching 3 CL finals in 4 years, and winning only 1, I can safely say the ones you lose mean pretty much feck all and are quickly forgotten.

What you remember is success and trophies.

Well, you didn't forget them for starters, and you think it's relevant that you reached 3 in 4 years. And it is. It is a sign of progress, to say the least.

Losing a cup final sucks, but it's clearly better and an improvement from being nowhere near a final in the first place. It means a lot for the manager's safety and the fans' patience when it happens. At least that.

 

[Hazza83]

1st season ever for LFC where 4th cannot be the minimum expectation. They have to aim for the title now. Thus, question is will Klopp be sacked if he finishes 4th or below? I certainly think so, as all the other rivals will sack their managers.

With this squad, I very much doubt we’ll find out!!

 

[SER19]

To be fair to LFC fans including myself, we have recently (since Hicks+Gillet) been operating under a stricter budget due to rebuilding after they f'd things up. Thus, for a good while the purse strings were tightened and net spend was something LFC had to take into consideration. Obviously, this has changed recently due to more sensible and proper ownership. Going forward i would hope that we don't have to look at Salah etc. and go, well we got 200mill for him after he cost us 36mill....I still think this will be difficult to achieve, as once Barca + RM come calling it'll test us again.

I agree Lovren isn't perfect, and he tricks us into a false sense of security whereby he plays well for 9 games, and then has an absolute shocker the next. However, in saying that, there aren't millions available at a much higher standard, i would say there are some that are more consistent that him, but probably don't perform as well as him on a good day. Still, probably consistency is what i'd prefer. Shaqiri has come to LFC knowing where he stands, will want to try and break into the side, but it'll be very difficult.

On Klopp, i think he's got enough brownie points saved up, LFC aren't a side to panic or be incredibly ruthless like a Chelsea + sack him. From what i've heard the owners are using him as a manager to learn from as well, and are taking his opinions about the clubs growth very seriously. Obviously, he will have extra pressures from the media and fans but ownership wise it will take something mad to change their tune.




Good post in general. Rivalries are what it's about!

Even though i disagree with parts of what you said t seems like something close to a miracle to see a liverpool fan post with some clarity regarding their own club. Refreshing

 

[SER19]

Fair play to Liverpool, they're one of the elite clubs in England so it's only right they should spending serious money. As a United fan, let's be honest, we all loved the rivalry when they were challenging for major trophies under Benitez and for those of us of a certain vintage, under Dalglish as well. It makes it all the more sweeter when we beat our biggest rivals to trophies. We should embrace the challenge and not get involved in petty squabbling. Plus United make so much money that what Liverpool spend should not be an issue for us, we have to resources to do what we do and not have to worry about others. It looks to me like it comes down to how clubs are being run and there are serious question marks over Woodward's run in charge of United from the top down. There is more to a club than flashing cash and signing everything in sight.

Don't get me wrong, i hate Liverpool and if they won the league id go exploring a Thai cave. But in a sense the threat of them challenging really shines a light on where city stand in my opinion. They won the league with 100 points but already i dont really care. Seeing liverpool or arsenal emerge would feel like a proper rivalry that might actually hurt. Something to engage in. Seeing city buy titles here and there feels more like an inconsequential season than anything. This is why id sooner see city win a title than Liverpool

 

[goin4glory]

First time in a long time I actually fancy them to finish ahead of us. Klopp make talk utter shite when it comes to his moral high horse and transfers but he's picking up very good players in key positions.

 

[VorZakone]

How's their CM depth at the moment? Can is gone to Juventus and Oxlade is out because of an injury.