I didn't. More inane ranting.
Liverpool - 2017/18
- Thread starter Rafateria
- Start date
Yeah pretty much.
I've explained my reasons as to why I consider Klopp's strategy to be flawed a long time ago. I don't care to repeat myself, apologies.
I think: not so much about yesterday's rude singing at PE but trying to explain their attitudes generally in a quasi-offensive way (or not caring that it's a bit generalized & offensive, take your pick 
)
1 - they are genuinely convinced en-masse that the entire World is against them & determined to turn them over - in terms of UK Establishment historically speaking, they might have a point
2 - a lot of them are a bit thick & some are old school footy fans - in higher % than you might find elsewhere
3 - they will admit nothing - do your own jokes here, but also something a bit cultural & ingrained
4 - they won feck all for so long, everything is a bit desperate every time a bit of hope emerges
)1 - they are genuinely convinced en-masse that the entire World is against them & determined to turn them over - in terms of UK Establishment historically speaking, they might have a point
2 - a lot of them are a bit thick & some are old school footy fans - in higher % than you might find elsewhere
3 - they will admit nothing - do your own jokes here, but also something a bit cultural & ingrained
4 - they won feck all for so long, everything is a bit desperate every time a bit of hope emerges
Still this stuff gets trotted out. Please stop grasping for excuses for your scumbag supporters.
How the feck can anyone believe he was lying when Suarez admitted to saying it? Was Suarez lying too by self incriminating himself and verifying he had indeed said it?
Suarez’s only defence was a feeble attempt at making out calling a black guy a negro whilst pinching their skin during an argument was a friendly and conciliatory gesture.
Your supporters know this. So their behaviour is racism apology, also known as racism, pure and simple.
Why do some of you believe he lied though? Because notorious fair play man Suarez said so?
Evra has to be telling lies because it's the only escape clause left once the Uruguayan culture thing as being between friends falls down a little bit.
Shame the FA said the LFC evidence (particularly Dirk Kuyt's I believe) was ''unreliable''
But, still all a bit mountain / molehill for me. I didn't exactly see Gnasher going on to give lectures on the historical inferiority of the black man or justifying existence of the slave trade. And neither do their fans really, not since John Barnes got signed, anyway.
Shame the FA said the LFC evidence (particularly Dirk Kuyt's I believe) was ''unreliable''
But, still all a bit mountain / molehill for me. I didn't exactly see Gnasher going on to give lectures on the historical inferiority of the black man or justifying existence of the slave trade. And neither do their fans really, not since John Barnes got signed, anyway.
I'm just contextualising the anti-Evra feeling in elements of the Liverpool fan base; I don't wish to get into a debate about the whole Suarez-Evra affair, as it's ground that was trodden 100x over in the past. Nor am I saying that Evra was in the wrong.
I know plenty of normal, level headed LFC fans (including many whom are from ethnic minority backgrounds themselves) whom are absolutely not racists, yet believe Evra is a liar and the whole thing was a conspiracy. Their dislike of Evra is based upon the supposition that he lied, not that he is black, or was racially abused. They don't believe he was racially abused, that's the key point here. That's not racism in itself.
You'd have to ask them, but it's fair to say their hatred of Manchester United and Ferguson, in particular, has swayed some towards thinking the whole affair was a conspiracy conducted to perform a character assassination on Suarez.
There is nothing level headed about that thinking. It’s like saying I know many level headed holocaust deniers, or I know many level headed flat earthers. They are denying reality to push a horrendous agenda with disgusting racial undertones. “How dare that little black player speak up, he should know his place.”
Your apologism for them reflects terribly on you. But then hardly surprising. You embarrassed yourself during the actual affair so no surprise to see you defend the indefensible now.
My mates indeed...
If anyone thinks that they are idiots. The man himself admitted part of it and proceeded to cause issues and embarrass your club at every opportunity. He even refused to shake Evra's hand.
Some need to get their heads out of their arses it seems.
think he meant inherently
''I think he's a cheating & violent bellend with a shedload of previous''
''Seems fair enough to me''
At the end of the day it was wrong of the Liverpool support to behave in the manner that they did, and I can't say I know too many people who were particularly enamoured by it either.
I think what @TheReligion says is right in that it was downright disgusting and extremely crass, but there's really no need to attempt to perpetuate a narrative that all Liverpool fans are racists and that we are in some way justifying those chants by attempting to have a rational discussion and delving in to the thinking behind it. It's more or less what you do with anything.
I think what @TheReligion says is right in that it was downright disgusting and extremely crass, but there's really no need to attempt to perpetuate a narrative that all Liverpool fans are racists and that we are in some way justifying those chants by attempting to have a rational discussion and delving in to the thinking behind it. It's more or less what you do with anything.
Level headed in every day life. They are not grand masters of the KKK or discriminatory in any way.
Did you really just compare holocaust denial to not believing an incident of verbal racist abuse? Wow.
Oh, so am I a racist now too?
Yeah, maybe they do. Tribalism can cloud even the most rational minds.
I reckon Liverpool will win the League Cup, FA Cup and finish second this season, scoring 427 goals.
Level headed in every day life. They are not grand masters of the KKK or discriminatory in any way.
Did you really just compare holocaust denial to not believing an incident of verbal racist abuse? Wow.
Oh, so am I a racist now too?
Yeah, maybe they do. Tribalism can cloud even the most rational minds.
I was comparing the act of denying or ignoring factual evidence to pursue a disgusting agenda, with racial or prejudicial undertones. The tenets are the same.
Your apologism tacitly endorses this kind of behaviour. You have a history of completey misrepresenting the facts of this case, likely as part of a similar agenda.
It’s clear this perspective is widespread in the matchgoing Liverpool fan base, which is an indelible stain on the club.
It's never been that they're 'ignoring factual evidence', but that they're disputing whether the evidence is factual at all. Tribalism will have that effect on people, but how does that in itself have any racial or prejudicial undertones? It doesn't. Questioning something doesn't make you complicit.
Our best player is a Muslim and widely adulated. Our squad is made up players from a multitude of ethnicity. The match day support has a similarly multicultural makeup. Evra received that treatment because he's considered by some elements of the support a liar, not because there is some underlying 'disgusting agenda' at Anfield, which ostracises non-white people as you seem to suggest.
To be clear, I condemn the 'lying bastard' chants. It opens up an unnecessary can of worms and reports of racist abuse should be taken very seriously in any circumstance, as with Holgate/Firmino earlier in the season. This kind of chanting can only be seen to dissuade from that and so is distasteful, but it was not an act of racism in itself.
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Yes it is.
Chanting that Evra is a liar is clearly ignoring the factual evidence of the case. The only dispute in the case is if it’s ok to call a black person negro and pinch their skin during an argument. That this is ok is the weird perverse side of the argument these fans are on.
If they were chanting in support of using racial epithets during arguments with black players then it would be closer to their true POV because none of them truly believe that Suarez didn't in fact call Evra negro during an argument. Unless they also think Suarez is lying which I doubt.
Your second paragraph is straight out of the “We’re not racist, we’ve got a black friend” playbook. Give it up mate.
There are some very tedious posters on this thread.
Chanting that Evra is a liar is... believing that Evra is a liar. It's not racist.
I'm not interested in going into why they believe that. I'm not a Spanish language expert and don't remember enough about the case.
You alluded towards there being some kind of overarching racist attitude at LFC, which is clearly not the case.
Your initial point was that the chanting was racially motivated. We've established the chanting wasn't racist but out of belief that Evra is a liar.
Chanting that Evra is a liar is... believing that Evra is a liar. It's not racist.
I'm not interested in going into why they believe that. I'm not a Spanish language expert and don't remember enough about the case.
You alluded towards there being some kind of overarching racist attitude at LFC, which is clearly not the case.
Your initial point was that the chanting was racially motivated. We've established the chanting wasn't racist but out of belief that Evra is a liar.
They don’t believe Evra is a liar though.
You don’t, they don’t, Suarez doesn’t, nobody does.
They know his complaint was genuine because his abuser admitted as much.
They just think it’s ok for him to be called a negro and have his skin pinched during an argument.
But they’ll never say in those words that’s how they feel so it’s easier to form a delusion that he lied and ignore the facts of the case.
It’s racism apologism, it’s insidious amongst your matchgoing support and it’s a stain on your club.
You keep going on about this ''belief' that Evra lied.
Where does that come from when it was proven by the FA he committed the offence and Suarez even admitted it himself after trying every excuse under the sun and making a complete and utter show of your club?
Really really poor and further disgraces Liverpool Football Club.
Very uneducated.
I don't know, I'm not debating the incident itself. Just providing rationale for Saturday.
Re: The bold - No. It wasn't that. Have another go. Read the report again.
Evra is a bit of a shit. But we can love him for winding Suarez up. West Ham fans can love Nolan for carrying Herrera. Porto fans can love Jose's sprint down the pitch and Liverpool fans can love Slippie-G kissing cameras. Opposing fans can get p1ssy about those instances but no laws are being broken, no conduct is truly that bad in those instances.
Your player routinely racially abused a player over the course of a game, deliberately. He admitted it. He was found guilty. He got a ban. Your fans don't have a leg to stand on and even those that have gone 99% of the way there - such as yourself - still need to make the extra 1% gap and don't ever try to make it look like anything other than what it was: Racist abuse. It should be impossible for you and every Liverpool fan to still think he said 'Negrito'.
I think: not so much about yesterday's rude singing at PE but trying to explain their attitudes generally in a quasi-offensive way (or not caring that it's a bit generalized & offensive, take your pick
1 - they are genuinely convinced en-masse that the entire World is against them & determined to turn them over - in terms of UK Establishment historically speaking, they might have a point
2 - a lot of them are a bit thick & some are old school footy fans - in higher % than you might find elsewhere
3 - they will admit nothing - do your own jokes here, but also something a bit cultural & ingrained
4 - they won feck all for so long, everything is a bit desperate every time a bit of hope emerges
Thanks for sharing a great insight to yourself. Do you actually think for yourself by the way ?
Howard Gayle ?
OK instead of writing it like an absolute weapon (a fair enough point - I probably read too much RAWK) I could rephrase it along the lines that LFC support is still slighted more rooted in the original working class passion for standing on the terraces & supporting the team come what may - they'll be there next week. Not completely given in to the tediously dull & sanitized middle-class ponce-ification of the game. And the support might even have remained a bit more what... choose your words.. let's say ''focussed'' because of various unfortunate events. I don't have to be meaning that unkindly for there to be a point in there somewhere.
And at least I'm not saying your entire club is comprised of racists to a degree that is / was worse than that found anywhere else? Purely on the basis that a South American loose cannon loony probably said something that he shouldn't & threatened to plunge the English game into the abyss of not quite being as corporately jolly hockey-sticks as the FA wanted everyone (esp those providing the ££££) to believe.
And at least I'm not saying your entire club is comprised of racists to a degree that is / was worse than that found anywhere else? Purely on the basis that a South American loose cannon loony probably said something that he shouldn't & threatened to plunge the English game into the abyss of not quite being as corporately jolly hockey-sticks as the FA wanted everyone (esp those providing the ££££) to believe.
You and others are focusing far too much on the intent of the fans, as opposed to the actual impact of their actions. Believing Evra has lied when there is incontrovertible evidence to the contrary (including, as others have pointed out, from Suarez himself) has the effect of diminishing his experience of racism, giving support to the actual racist, and making other victims of racism think twice before coming forward in case they too cop abuse from fans. All of those things facilitate a culture where racism is either acceptable or not taken as seriously as it ought to be - ie: the actions of the fans are directly supporting racism. Ironically, focusing on the intentions of white people as opposed to the impact of their actions on people of colour is one of the most insidious aspects of modern day racism and a big part of why the Republican Party etc are able to cloak their racism in race neutral language and get away with it.
Even if you do want to focus on the fans' intent, it probably says something about someone's attitude towards race that they are willing to so easily disbelieve evidence of a black person's suffering or think that football tribalism is more important than that suffering. In fact I’d say it’s quite analogous to the world’s disbelief of Liverpool fans post-Hillsborough reflecting their classism (note: this doesn’t mean I’m saying the two events are equally bad)
Your Johnson example and subsequent post about your mates not being KKK members give a pretty good indication that you’re approaching the problem of racism incorrectly. Recruiting a black person to your cause does not make that cause not racist, otherwise Ben Carson would make Trump not racist. And it isn’t a binary between non-racists on one side and the KKK on the other; there are plenty of points between those two on the racism spectrum. This is one of them.
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Bit of an aside but I thought this book was very good, in all areas - just a bit too much of a political slant for me, but apart from that, really good insight into all sorts of things from a strongly LFC perspective obviously - but still very valid & wise words for a great deal of the time.
What do you mean by 'recruiting a black person to the cause'? There is no 'cause' - this was an isolated incident. You also draw a comparison between Trump/the Republicans and LFC. It seems you're implying that there is an underlying racist agenda within the club's support, which is a ridiculous notion. My point re: Johnson is quite simple. Disbelieving something does not mean you are condoning the implied action.
The fans' intent is what was being discussed - not the potential implications or interpretations of their chanting, which I think everyone acknowledges could be negatively construed. Your initial point was that the chanting was 'outright racism' - it clearly was not. Inappropriate, misguided, distasteful? - yes, but not as some part of a calculated racist agenda as you and some others wish to believe.
In absolutely no way are the two the same.
A fair amount of time has passed since his departure. Could have quoted anyone but I always like to pick the confident predictors on here. Seeing as my predictions are usually called up.
Quite a few of us said numerous times he was not our best player last season (Mane) and he isn't this (Salah). Before that even wasn't it Suarez?
Anyhoo, since his departure we're the only team to have beaten City. Doing well in the CL against fodder. Scored 17 league goals. Haven't counted the cup goals. And in a better position in the league now than when he was here. Slight blip being the FA cup exit, something Coutinho has also been involved in for five years.
So, Kraftwerker, comfortably our best and most creative player, eh? Maybe you should go to Specsavers.
I hope Rafa returns and gets them relegated. A perfect storm.
Jeezus...
I know, right?
He was. Hence why he’ll be winning trophies at Barcelona whilst you win nothing.
I think you’re trying a bit too hard here, a bit too desperate to pin a bad prediction on me after your litany of shit ones.
If you were coming back after banking a few trophies then fair enough. Selling your best players is never a good thing, nor is it conducive to success.
I doubt he would go back to Chelsea
Will they sign a goalie in the summer,if so who ?
Casper was mentioned last season..
Casper was mentioned last season..
Allison seems to be our preferred target but that probably depends on whether we can get it over the line early, before the WC starts.
Roma want to put a massive clause in his contract which could be a factor too.
Roma want to put a massive clause in his contract which could be a factor too.
He can't even count mate. They didn't sign Mane until the summer window in 2016, but according to him Suarez was still their best player up until then despite having left for Barcelona two years before.
Even if we let him have that Salah is the best this season and Mane was the best last season, Coutinho was still, undoubtedly one of their top performers, and a very important part of their strongest team. It'd be like us waving the sale of Pogba because De Gea is actually our best player actually actually, and Lukaku's scored more goals. He's acting like they've somehow shipped out Wijnaldum for £100 million.
They'll fall back on "look how many goals we're scoring" as if we didn't already know that Mane, Firmino and Salah were a formidable offensive unit in their own right, but the fact remains that they used to have four good attacking players, and now they've got three. They've now lost the ability to rotate a good player with another good player, and if one of those three gets injured, or like Coutinho, and like Suarez, gets a sniff of interest from the likes of Barcelona, they're suddenly relying on Solanke, Ings or Oxlade-Chamberlain to fill in.
They're constantly in rebuild mode, and constantly bemoaning their lack of strength in depth compared to City and United, but they'll still fall back on "Coutinho wasn't even our best player" as if that makes losing him any less of a hit to their squad's overall strength. "We beat City" looks good until you see "then lost to Swansea a week later" written in fine print underneath, and looks even worse when you see "then shipped three at home to West Brom and got knocked out of the FA Cup the week after that" written in even finer print under that. Even the win itself looks far less impressive than it could have been if they had a functioning defense. 4-1 up with 5 minutes + stoppage time remaining, ending up with them hanging on by the skin of their teeth for a 4-3 win, that could well have been a 4-4 all draw on another day.
That game against Liverpool in a few weeks will be a huge one.
Hopefully we do the business, we've been very good at home under Jose generally.
Hopefully we do the business, we've been very good at home under Jose generally.
Alisson is our target if Karius doesn't perform well for the rest of the season. Jorginho is our midfield target as a replacement for Can and according to Paul Joyce (a very reliable LFC journalist) we're also targetting a Coutinho replacement, but who that is I'm not sure. Fekir or Pulisic seem the most likely in my opinion, but who knows.