Which is obviously not what I said/implied and says more about your rubbish comprehension skills.
Liverpool 2014/15 | WARNING: Contains strong amounts of Scouse nonsense
- Thread starter Wumminator
- Start date
Do you think Liverpool will be in the title race on the last day of this season?
This is very true which is why his departure was so devastating. I predict that it'll have a bigger impact than Suarez leaving - both in the short and long term. Something that's never really discussed here in depth.
It's poor analysis. A meaningless, generic way of describing last season.
so you think our squad was "shit" when we won the league? What rubbish.My rubbish comprehension skills?
"Everything fell in to place" is an absolutely meaningless statement. It just allows you to wave off Liverpool's title challenge as a fluke with no evidence, its hopeful at best.
What fell in to place? Rodgers having his team play great attacking football that was free flowing and won games? They were very good, thus finished 2nd.
No, but that's more to do with Chelsea strengthening so much than them weakening. I think they'll finish 3rd.
That's irrelevant because it wasn't a description of last season nor was it analysis. You just took a statement on a certain aspect of last season and took offence to it as if I was reducing your reason to that description. Basically your being a big sensitive.
Agüero.
So they should score around 100 goals get around 84 points.
Fair enough if you feel that way. I disagree obviously. I think it will be 4th or 5th.
I think that could happen, I really am unsure of the league next year, so many teams are stronger and it could be very tight. Exciting season to come.
'Can't see Liverpool winning it. Last season everything fell into place. This season they will closer to their real level'. So because everything 'fell into place' we finished 2nd? Last season wasn't our real level? It sounds like a typical synopsis of our season to me.
I'm not offended. Just tired of the same old 'LFC got lucky' talk.
Wrong. Last season you were great and created your success (well second place success) and were aided by a few factors in your favour that won't be there this season. I've often said that Rodgers seems to be a good coach (management side will take time to judge) so the foundations should be pretty strong irrespective, so while I don't see you lot falling apart because the football coaching side seems solid, I don't see a proper title challenge like last season.
If everytime a united fan judges a Liverpool side/season here, you want all his thoughts - positive and negative, all neatly mentioned, then I'm sorry to say that a Manchester United forum isn't the right place for you.
Those were the reasons I think you'll fail to recreate last seasons league season. I'm not going to repeat reasons why you've improved under Rodgers when it's not even relevant.
My point exactly, he's played less than 10 games. Now some of the comments on him are as if Liverpool have brought in this phenomenal talent that'll settle your defensive problems.
I don't think he meant Liverpool's success can purely be attributed to sheer luck. What he probably meant was that the team last season was much more than its sum of parts in the sense that the team as a whole was much better than its individual parts. Liverpool relied on teamwork and cohesive play more than on individual brilliance. It's fair to say Liverpool were the 'surprise package' of last season barring Crystal Palace. Now teams they face will give them more respect and maybe even be cautious in their play. Can Liverpool step up/tweak their game in the absence of Suarez to prove that they are no one-season wonder? Bigger teams will also be aware of their blitz/shock and awe tactic that they employ early on where they come out all guns blazing early on with their tempo/pressing and try to establish a significant early advantage.
Moreover, they've lost Suarez. This could potentially have 2 outcomes. Sturridge could take his game up a notch with youngsters like Sterling/Coutinho truly flourishing with the additional responsibility and with them not having to play under the shadow of Suarez. Or Sturridge could struggle with the additional attention he receives now with him being the sole genuine goal threat in the current Liverpool's side now and Sterling/Coutinho struggling with the additional responsibility. Before you pool fans say Sturridge fared well enough without Suarez, it was obvious their game all around was much better with them as a pair. Mainly due to the fact that they were a interchangeable twin threat and were both able to score/provide for each other making the opposition's job much harder.
I guess the outcome wouldn't be as extreme as the two options above and probably somewhat in the middle of both of them. However, it is fair to say it would have been much better with Suarez and there are still a few question marks over Pool this season transferwise as well, with only Lallana/Lambert being proven entities and the other signings being bit of a gamble. That is why many United fans think Liverpool could potentially struggle this season.
Well no but the immense loss of Fergie is immense coz he had an immense role to play.
Obviously, and it's been discussed plenty as well.
Yes and no. Of course his significance has been discussed but when it comes to his retirement causing negative seismic shifts in influence I'd say that Suarez's departure is discussed far more by comparison.
Last summer, posters on here weren't declaring it as a disaster for United and the end of guaranteed top 4 finishes. Whereas that's what is being predicted for Liverpool by a huge number of posters now that Suarez has left. I'd say Suarez's importance to Liverpool was minor in comparison to Fergie's at United.
While Liverpool may struggle to replace Suarez it's nowhere near as difficult as replacing Fergie. Not just the longevity but the way he had a hold over the league and his players (not in a corrupt way, just psychological), the way he galvanised average players (and made good players better), the way he sustained hunger to unprecedented levels. This loss has been huge and no club in history has ever lost such a leader. The result is that United have joined the uber-manager merry-go-round and are no longer set apart in their approach. Their formula is no longer unique. Their spell had been broken. Success will now come in spite of the Fergie years not because of it because the nature of his success meant that succession planning wasn't part of the deal. If van Gaal does well it'll have nothing to do with the systems and processes left to him. It'll be because he does it the van Gaal way which is far less predictable than what Fergie offered. Nothing is guaranteed anymore.
In short, it's United who still need to learn to readjust - in relative terms, Liverpool need a minor realignment.
Always fair, logical, posts. However not that I agree with all of the content.
We were top of the league at Xmas and there wasn't a team in the PL who we hadn't played and a manager who was not completely aware of our style and formations. I always think comments such as your
and
are hyperbole. Because no doubt every team we faced in the second half of the season tried to make formational or strategic adjustments to cope and many of them employed just the negative tactics you are suggesting may be an obstacle to us this season. The managers had all faced us before, they all have scouts giving them match reports and all of our matches were broadcast so they'll have had every minute of our play that season to study.
This coming season will be no different and to suggest that suddenly these teams/managers will have come up with a new formula to counteract the 'blitz & awe' (a Red Top headline if ever I saw one because I don't think that is something we ever intentionally set out to do) or any other aspect of our play, particularly the pace of our counter-attacks, is pure rhetoric. I am not even suggesting that we will play the same formation this coming season, in fact we'll more than likely play Rodger's preferred 4-3-3 than any midfield diamond, more often than not. I'm also not suggesting the loss of Suarez can simply be obliterated by continuing 'as we were' and ignoring the lack of his presence in the team. However I do think that changes we've made to personnel in key positions around the pitch, the 4-3-3 we are sure to employ more often, and much deeper strength in depth on the bench, will help keep the boat from rocking.
I am concerned about Sturridge, but only because of the extra pressure he will face to score goals and his injury history. At least one, or even two, additional strikers before the end of the transfer window is absolutely key to our season. Get in one or two very good strikers (they don't have to be 'stars') and I can see us comfortably securing another Top 4, though where in that 4 I'd hate to hazard a guess at present.
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Good point there. I remember bus parking being employed by West Ham and pushing right up against our defenders (Swansea, Cardiff). For the bus parkers, Suarez was the difference I guess so we probably will miss that element. But for the teams that pushed our defenders Rodgers changed instructions to lob the ball over the half way line and let Raheem / Sturridge / Suarez chase it. Those games we often won 5-3, 3-2 or 6-3.
All this showed that in the second half of the season managers were thinking of how to play against us all the time. In detail. Can't see how they will go into next season having found some 'missing' detail other than the fact Suarez is no longer there. Rodgers is a clever cookie, thankfully still underestimated. He'll be waiting for the tactical battles the 'now-ready' managers will bring.
Perhaps I exaggerated that point about Liverpool being negatively impacted by the attention/respect they will be receiving for this season. I was trying to suggest that other teams will be more prepared for them and it might impact them.
I do feel that it was a feature of Liverpool's game last season tbh. There were a couple of games (esp against the big sides/Everton) where their intensity in the first 20-30 minutes was absolutely ferocious trying to gain the upperhand and then they lowered the tempo for the rest of the game whilst keeping their stranglehold on the game.
Anyway I'd rather see Liverpool challenge for the top 4 than them being out of the reckoning. It just makes the rivalry more exciting and more enjoyable. It was during the peak when we were both challenging for the title in 08/09 and both set of fans were going at each other for the entire campaign.
Coming off the back of a couple of pretty uninspiring years though.
City are faves.
We've been hearing the same thing said about Chelsea every summer for a while now - granted, their squad is stronger than it has been for a while, but it's bollocks to suggest they'll 'comfortably' win anything.
Only United win titles by 10+ point margins if the last eight seasons are anything to go by.
Chelsea are favorites at the bookies, the only metric that really matters. I saw the line this week. They are slight favorites over Citeh, something like 1.9 to 1 and Citeh are like 2.3 to 1 and then Arsenal, Liverpool and United are between 4.5-1 and 7-1, as I recall.
I don't think loosing Suarez is going to be their biggest issue, Sturridge comes accross as someone who will relish being the main man and cope with the pressure quite well. I think slippy Steve is done at the top level and still mentally fecked from last season, and their final position will depend in large on does Rodgers have the balls to drop him and how quickly? If it's early enough they will still be up there. I think city and Chelsea will be top two, us arsenal and Liverpool 3-5 but the order is anyone's guess as it will be very tight.
Whenever I hear Liverpool fans talk about transfer targets and what the squad needs. Every single one of them always point out a desperate need for an attacking player. Someone who can play in a few different positions in the attacking third. In my opinion, that's the last place they should be looking at.
Be great if this "big money striker" turns out to be Fred.
Chelsea and City quite clearly have better teams and I think Arsenal look better on paper too but they have undeperformed for a few seasons now IMO so I won't be surprised to see them well out of title race again.
With Liverpool I think a lot comes down to how they start season. If they get off to a good start then they could build on that with gained confidence. If they struggle early on then a lot of that will be put to the lack of Suarez and plenty of nonsense talk from Rodgers will surface which won't do them any good.
They will not replace Suarez adequately. No striker around that level will go to Liverpool.
With Liverpool I think a lot comes down to how they start season. If they get off to a good start then they could build on that with gained confidence. If they struggle early on then a lot of that will be put to the lack of Suarez and plenty of nonsense talk from Rodgers will surface which won't do them any good.
They will not replace Suarez adequately. No striker around that level will go to Liverpool.
Have they been linked with Fred? Seriously..
The Brazilian that lit up the World Cup with his stellar performances..
Huh? If Sturridge gets injured (unfortunately not that unlikely), we're left with Lambert up front. I'd say that's the first place we should be looking at.
This is just awful stuff. Alright so let's get right into this.
It's beyond obvious that Sir Alex's influence will always be incomparable to that of little cheating shit Luis Suarez's, it's not even comparable. But on the other hand, what Saf created is far greater than Suarez assisted. United are a more powerful club. We earn more. We have more. That's the monster saf leaves behind. In fact, we also have a superior football team given it's actually shown itself to be capable of winning things. That's what fergie has left behind. I know it doesn't suit your narrative of "fergie gone, united are fecked", but I think changing footballing philosophies of 442 to 433, crossing to possession play, is actually the easy part.
Roberto Martinez showed that at Everton. He came in and got them seamlessly playing a different way. So this massive shift that we have to make, or at least the football side of it, won't be very hard. On the other hand, for Liverpool to match the very best year after year, that's much harder. You aren't as appealing, you don't earn as much, you don't pay as much wages. That's a bigger hinderance than anything we have.
Also I don't think we had a "spell" or a set formula that was better. We had the better man. And we can continue to do so if we pick the right men to lead, and not fools like David Moyes. That, backed by the strength in resources saf left us with, leaves us with a good chance of being better for far longer than he himself stayed here.
Also, no fan in their right mind will predict he "end of top 4 finishes" when their side has won the league 5 of the last 7 years, no matter who the person leaving is. On the other hand predicting that for a side who haven't won the league for decades and once came 2nd...
I was waiting for this exact response. I'm not disputing the club that Fergie built, I'm not disputing he improved the club's standing and powerbase. What I'm saying is that the way he ran that club cannot be replicated. There's no transition in place. Moyes went in there and saw a very idiosyncratic operation in Fergie's image. For example, the scouting system was archaic because Fergie operated differently to modern methods. That's why it's been overhauled - this point is well documented.
Alright so let's get right into this.
It's beyond obvious that Sir Alex's influence will always be incomparable to that of little cheating shit Luis Suarez's, it's not even comparable. But on the other hand, what Saf created is far greater than Suarez assisted. United are a more powerful club. We earn more. We have more. That's the monster saf leaves behind. In fact, we also have a superior football team given it's actually shown itself to be capable of winning things. That's what fergie has left behind. I know it doesn't suit your narrative of "fergie gone, united are fecked", but I think changing footballing philosophies of 442 to 433, crossing to possession play, is actually the easy part.
The whole operation was distinct than other clubs because of one man but he didn't think about succession planning - which is why he made the abysmal decision to get his mate in. That failed beyond all comprehension, not just because Moyes was a poor choice but because he inherited a club that danced to the tune of his predecessor like no other club has ever done. The players were lost and at sea.
As for the 'superior' team, it peaked in 2013 and now needs work. The notion that last season's showing can be swept under the carpet is some of the most blinkered, yet oddly prevalent, analysis on here.
We haven't been linked with Fred.
What position are we more desperate for?
To be honest if you offered me Bony, Falcao, Cavani, Higuain or wait until January to sign someone, I'd do the latter every time. We need a striker badly and Lambert has shown that (though Lambert was also a notoriously slow starter at Southampton) but I would rather get the right one instead of panic buying. With Sanchez and Remy you could clearly see how they would be utilised in our set up. With the recent links you really can't. Missing out on Sanchez and even Remy appears an even bigger blow than it felt at the time. We could probably buy a forward who is better than them (Cavani for instance) but Sanchez and Remy would both have been perfect for the way we want to play moving forward which is a massive shame.
It's good to wait for good responses.
I think you completely overstate the apparent disarray and lack of systems at Manchester United because it suits your deep rooted desire for United to fall apart post Sir Alex. Which is fair enough because, after all, you've suffered seeing him dominate everything and you've had years to hope and pray that would happen. But I don think it will. He has, IMO, barring some obvious areas of the squad and the system becoming a bit stale, left a very strong football club in place that has everything in place to continue competing at the top level for a long long time.
As for the last comment, the squad we have today isn't far off from the 2013 one. Some would even argue it's better or can be with a couple of signings. So this fall of grace isn't really all that it's made out to be. Also, I don't think anyone actually has the stupid notions you force upon the majority of the caf. Last season we were managed pathetically. And we will get much much stronger under a world class manager. We won't win the title but I think well finish 4th. As I've said before, if you're accusing united fans of brushing last season under the carpet claiming "it's all good now", but some Liverpool fans here are just as guilty of taking last season as the norm claiming "were top dogs now". There are idiots on both sides. To make a case for all fans by taking a few stupid opinions you've heard as representative, is daft.
I've already said that I think it will be between United and Liverpool, most likely, for 4th. And I think well get it because our team is stronger. . If we take 6 months to get used to Van Gaal's ways, then I can see us missing out and you'll finish 4th. If we take to it quickly, it will be us. We'll see what happens.
Which ever way it is regarded, last season is the most important season because it's the most recent and relevant evidence base that we can work from. I'm certain that LvG will not be sharing the view that because it went well two seasons ago the status quo will be returned and United will be back.
I don't think United are stronger now other than in the attacking third - the midfield and defence don't convince especially with Carrick not the player he was, Scholes gone not to mention the end of the Rio-Vidic axis. Add to that Evra going and the demise of Valencia.
I still regard United a good side but the return to titles look unlikely - which you agree with.
He was still one of the most influential* players in the league last season and was the platform for how the team was set-up in front of him. But because of a couple of high-profile errors Rodgers needs to drop him...okayyyyy.
*slippery, slip, slip, slipped, slipper dig can be added here coz that's 'debate' right there!
Yep but by taking last season in isolation your results are skewed somewhat by what has happened in the last decade. So I suggest increasing your sample size for best available evidence! If a new study comes out on knee o/a you don't suddenly ignore the data thats's been collected in the last decade. You may decide it is strong enough to do this but at least it would be folly not to consider the previous literature. In laymans terms "one swallow doesn't make a summer" and we will see what transpires at Anfield but there is plenty evidence to believe Liverpool will revert back to type and be outside the top 4.
Football moves too quickly for people to look longingly at the recent past for a guide in future fortunes.
Take Liverpool: in 2009 finished 2nd on 86 points. In the previous 4 seasons they had played in two CL finals, winning one, finished comfortably in the top 4. Liverpool were a strong side.
09/10 was a disaster and they dropped out of the top 4. Things went from bad to worse with a string of different managers. It's taken 5 years to get back to top 4 football.
The point is that rather than reverting back to top 4 after the poor 09/10 season the decline had set in. The years of CL success meant nothing.
Essentially, looking back beyond a season is folly. It's not the way to construct a strategy for building and moving forward. The knee o\a example has no currency in this debate.
You scousers think that football was invented in 2013.
Well that's a refreshing take on the usual "living in the past" line. I'll take it.