Liverpool 2014/15 | WARNING: Contains strong amounts of Scouse nonsense

Barney said:
You were wrong then and you're still wrong now! Gerrard still adds a lot to this squad. People on here said the exact same thing when we beat Spurs 5-0 last season when Gerrard was injured, yet we then went on a run of eleven straight wins with him in the team. Gerrard is still a class player, he just needs to be play once a week. We shouldn't have situations where Henderson is shunted to right wing back just so Gerrard can play though.
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Spot on. It's only, unsurprisingly, on RedCafe and a few Reds that seem to have it in for him. Most commentators recognise he is still an excellent midfielder with a lot to contribute (though note not as a DM - as BR has stated SG is sat in front of the defence for his ability to create attacks from deep, unless Lucas is on we don't play with a DM). starting one match a week and coming on for the last 30 mins in another is going to get the most out of him.

People quickly forget we were playing like this with Gerrard against United (despite us being unable to finish), Bournemouth and Arsenal quite apart from Swansea. Playing against teams that press more (Burnley) is still going to be a problem for our setup more than teams that allow us space to play.
 
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I am happy for Gerrard to be phased out of the first team. He's good on the ball, but yesterday we had a midfield full of dynamic running with everyone pulling their weight. Gerrard in a deep position doesn't give us enough to make up for that.

Also, I think it suits our passing game better right now. His tendency to spread play isn't really helping with our lack of strikers. Passing short and compact through the lines is what we want right now.
 
Barney said:
Henderson was doing plenty of that last night to be fair.
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He was also doing forward runs and mixing it up.

Bottomline for me was that I didn't see anything Lucas and Henderson were doing out there that made me think Gerrard could improve on their work.
 
At any rate, it seems like we are finally beginning to discover some sort of post-Suarez, and perhaps post-gerrard, identity as a team. Coutinho, Sterling, Henderson, Sakho - Those are players you'd want in your core. No surprise that once Jordan moved centrally he's started looking like a player again.
 
B20 said:
He was also doing forward runs and mixing it up.

Bottomline for me was that I didn't see anything Lucas and Henderson were doing out there that made me think Gerrard could improve on their work.
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Absolutely. Some fans (and our manager) is holding on too long to Gerrard much like Ferguson held on too long to Giggs and Scholes. Sure they won the league that one more time but it wouldn't have killed them if they went balls out for the likes of Strootman, etc, at the time.

Again, sure Gerrard was good for us last season but defensively we conceded a horrendous amount and the signs (for those who wanted to see them) were clear last season should have been his last to move the club forward. The blame is passed to others (correctly in some cases) but you can only look to fixing the system properly if you stop bypassing the Gerrard pin. However, to see the big picture labels one a Gerrard-hater which is far from the truth. He is the best player this club has ever had.
 
BR has taken a while to find a system that suits the players we've got - especially with Studge out for so long. He's had a few false starts along the way and although he may tinker with this it's looking good. He did that in both 2012/13 and 2013/14, starting slowly and then picking up the pace once we settled. One of the lads on another site posted this interesting ditty. 4th is expected to be between 62 and 65 points this season, so we will need +/- 2 pts per game to achieve that.

.................................1H....2H
Swansea 11/ 12..........1.05 1.42
LFC 12/13..................1.32 1.89
LFC 13/14..................1.89 2.53
LFC 14/15..................1.47 ???
 
Rafateria said:
BR has taken a while to find a system that suits the players we've got - especially with Studge out for so long. He's had a few false starts along the way and although he may tinker with this it's looking good. He did that in both 2012/13 and 2013/14, starting slowly and then picking up the pace once we settled. One of the lads on another site posted this interesting ditty. 4th is expected to be between 62 and 65 points this season, so we will need +/- 2 pts per game to achieve that.

.................................1H....2H
Swansea 11/ 12..........1.05 1.42
LFC 12/13..................1.32 1.89
LFC 13/14..................1.89 2.53
LFC 14/15..................1.47 ???
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It's possible you could get back into it with a run of form, but 62-65 is fairly optimistic. If we continue our generally improved form and Arsenal have a better second half of the season (and I think there's a decent chance they will), then it could end up being nearer 70 pts for 4th. And if it is, I can't see you guys making it.
 
Cheesy said:
It's possible you could get back into it with a run of form, but 62-65 is fairly optimistic. If we continue our generally improved form and Arsenal have a better second half of the season (and I think there's a decent chance they will), then it could end up being nearer 70 pts for 4th. And if it is, I can't see you guys making it.
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Arsenal have Soton next; we have Leicester. Could be within touching distance of fourth by the end of the week.

ThierryHenry said:
What's the latest on 'Studge'?
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He's meant to be back within the next month. Though I have heard murmurs that he may not play again this season.
 
ShadesOfTomato said:
Arsenal have Soton next; we have Leicester. Could be within touching distance of fourth by the end of the week.
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True, it's certainly possible and you'll stand a decent chance if Sturridge comes back and stays fit. If not though, struggle to see you making top 4.
 
Cheesy said:
True, it's certainly possible and you'll stand a decent chance if Sturridge comes back and stays fit. If not though, struggle to see you making top 4.
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Thing is that in all likelihood Southampton, West Ham etc. will drop away (when is the last time a team not one one of the established top 6-7 teams made the Top 4) that leaves Arsenal, Spurs & Liverpool fighting for 4th and all have been relatively crap / inconsistent so far this season. For Arsenal to reach 70 pts they would also need 2 points per match. If any of those three can get on a run (and we have done that in both the last 2 seasons whereas Arsenal have traditionally dropped off) then they should take 4th.

Also it isn't at all that optimistic that we could make 62-65 based on a) our record under BR and b) the way the team looks like it's at last getting it together now that BR has found a system that works for this group of players. Even using the 2012/13 figure would give us 64 pts .. and that's under 2 per match.
 
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B20 said:
At any rate, it seems like we are finally beginning to discover some sort of post-Suarez, and perhaps post-gerrard, identity as a team. Coutinho, Sterling, Henderson, Sakho - Those are players you'd want in your core. No surprise that once Jordan moved centrally he's started looking like a player again.
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It was bound to happen sooner or later that some of the new players would click.
 
To be in touch of fourth after that start shows how inconsistent the league has been. I predict a generally strong 19 games from Arsenal so Liverpool need to keep going. It's been a good couple of weeks.
 
They need to fire 30m at Southampton (or some other team) for Schneiderlin (or someone of that ilk) to start ahead of Lucas and Gerrard. It's a similar situation to what United faced in the summer, go big and give yourself the best possible chance to get back in to the champions league, because Liverpool are at best second favourites for 4th, assuming United take 3rd.
 
-------Sturridge----------- (Striker)
Sterling-Coutinho-Lallana (Markovic)
----Henderson------------ (Can, Allen)
----------DM-------------- (Lucas, Gerrard)
Moreno----------------RB (Manquillo, LB)
------CB1----CB2-------- (Sakho, Lovren, Skrtel)
-----------GK1------------ (Mignolet)

If they're serious about being title contenders, they basically need an entirely new back 6, save the promising Moreno and maybe one of the CB's can be carried by a great CB if they can sign one.

They would be scary going forward if they got a great DM to free up that athletic and skillful front 5, but still not there defensively.

More holes than Arsenal, but they have 6 good starters 26 and under, and potentially even a 7th if one of Sakho, Manquillo or Lovren can play to their potential.

In some ways, you could see them, if Rodgers went and a good defensive coach came in, doing a reverse Arsenal from the early Wenger days and keeping their strong attack but completely overhauling their defense with the right new manager. Not sure that guy is out there.
 
NoPace said:
-------Sturridge----------- (Striker)
Sterling-Coutinho-Lallana (Markovic)
----Henderson------------ (Can, Allen)
----------DM-------------- (Lucas, Gerrard)
Moreno----------------RB (Manquillo, LB)
------CB1----CB2-------- (Sakho, Lovren, Skrtel)
-----------GK1------------ (Mignolet)

If they're serious about being title contenders, they basically need an entirely new back 6, save the promising Moreno and maybe one of the CB's can be carried by a great CB if they can sign one.

They would be scary going forward if they got a great DM to free up that athletic and skillful front 5, but still not there defensively.

More holes than Arsenal, but they have 6 good starters 26 and under, and potentially even a 7th if one of Sakho, Manquillo or Lovren can play to their potential.

In some ways, you could see them, if Rodgers went and a good defensive coach came in, doing a reverse Arsenal from the early Wenger days and keeping their strong attack but completely overhauling their defense with the right new manager. Not sure that guy is out there.
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I agree about a DM and keeper but your team there (or lack of it) is based on wanting real quality in each position. I don't think that's entirely needed to be a top side. A handful of real quality mixed with solid players is not unusual for top sides.
 
PickledRed said:
I agree about a DM and keeper but your team there (or lack of it) is based on wanting real quality in each position. I don't think that's entirely needed to be a top side. A handful of real quality mixed with solid players is not unusual for top sides.
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I reckon capitalism has ended that, if we're talking about sides that can win the Prem/La Liga and compete for the CL. Who are the weakest starters for the top teams? Not a ton of only "solid" players on that list, and in most cases it's either a proven quality player in a bad spell (Casillas, Pique) a young player who will be real quality real soon (Bernat, Carvajal).

Bayern - Bernat? He's pretty damn good. Everyone else is fantastic.

Madrid - Carvajal is the weakest starter they throw out there and he's had a strong season and is a very good player who is only 22 and will probably be a top RB very soon. Casillas is the other one, but he's got an incredible amount of experience. Still, they'll likely replace him sooner rather than later.

Barcelona - A starting CB, be it Jeremy Mathieu or Pique or Bartra. After that, it's probably Rakitic/Xavi or Dani Alves, so yeah.

Atletico - Tiago and Siquiera are not close to world class, though the former has played very well for Simeone for years now.

Chelsea - Willian is their weakest first choice player. He works hard and does a lot of good things but is probably short of top quality. Then you could question Oscar and Azpilicueta/Felipe Luis, but that's pretty damn nitpicky, especially in the latter case, as Azpilicueta has played very well for Mourinho and Felipe Luis is coming off a fantastic season and probably just needs some time to adjust to a new club and league. Terry is old and slow, but Chelsea's D is tops in the Prem and he's a favorite to make the PFA list right now, I'd think.

those are the 5 teams 'd say are the top sides right now. The 2nd tier is something like: Man City, PSG (Those 2 really should be alone in their own tier between the above sides and the ones that follow), United, Arsenal, Dortmund (They'll rebound), Juventus, Roma. Those teams have 3-4 starters who fall short of real quality, but that's the main reason they're in the 2nd tier.

Man City - Kompany's partner, Navas, Clichy, Fernando.
PSG - Lavezzi, Marquinhos, Maxwell

United - Both CB's. Our front 6 is basically all central players, but if we added 2 quality CB's you'd fancy Van Gaal to get a diamond or something to work well.
Arsenal - Arteta, Mertesacker, Sczesny, Welbeck/Giroud. All solid players. Not good enough to compete for major trophies.
Dortmund - Langerak/Weidenfeller, Schmelzer/Durm, Immobile
Juventus - Evra, Llorente, Pererya (they are sort of like us in that they have a balance problem more than a number of quality players issue)
Roma - Iturbe/Florenzi, 2-3 defenders now that Benatia is gone, Gervinho

Liverpool can get back into tier 2 by adding the right DM and CB, and they'd be happy enough there, but if they want to push Chelsea for the title, they need more than that.
 
BTW the average age of the team that started against Swansea was 23.5 yrs. Add Markovic (20) to that (Balo & Borini won't be here next season).
 
NoPace said:
-------Sturridge----------- (Striker)
Sterling-Coutinho-Lallana (Markovic)
----Henderson------------ (Can, Allen)
----------DM-------------- (Lucas, Gerrard)
Moreno----------------RB (Manquillo, LB)
------CB1----CB2-------- (Sakho, Lovren, Skrtel)
-----------GK1------------ (Mignolet)

If they're serious about being title contenders, they basically need an entirely new back 6, save the promising Moreno and maybe one of the CB's can be carried by a great CB if they can sign one.

They would be scary going forward if they got a great DM to free up that athletic and skillful front 5, but still not there defensively.

More holes than Arsenal, but they have 6 good starters 26 and under, and potentially even a 7th if one of Sakho, Manquillo or Lovren can play to their potential.

In some ways, you could see them, if Rodgers went and a good defensive coach came in, doing a reverse Arsenal from the early Wenger days and keeping their strong attack but completely overhauling their defense with the right new manager. Not sure that guy is out there.
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I think we need probably another one or maybe two boss attacking players (depending on Ibe's development) on the level of Sturridge and Sterling. If we can get them in and flog Balotelli, Lambert and Borini we should be set. I'll be very happy with Sturridge, Origi, Sterling, Lallana, Markovic, Ibe, hopefully Suso and a new signing. Two new keepers have to be brought in too. I would probably focus what we have to spend here and ensure we get the best players we can get. Not arsed about spending money on the central defence to be honest. I'm not convinced that there are any attainable top centre halves. I'd persist with Sakho who I think can be a very good player and make do with someone else. If we can sign Manquillo permanently I would do that too and bring in an another fullback to replace Johnson.
 
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NoPace said:
reckon capitalism has ended that, if we're talking about sides that can win the Prem/La Liga and compete for the CL. Who are the weakest starters for the top teams? Not a ton of only "solid" players on that list, and in most cases it's either a proven quality player in a bad spell (Casillas, Pique) a young player who will be real quality real soon (Bernat, Carvajal).
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I completely disagree with this. We came within two points of winning the league with Glen Johnson, Simon Mignolet, Aly Cissokho/Jon Flanagan and Toure/Skrtel.
 
Barney said:
I completely disagree with this. We came within two points of winning the league with Glen Johnson, Simon Mignolet, Aly Cissokho/Jon Flanagan and Toure/Skrtel.
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Ah, that old chestnut.

"My one example outweighs the dozens and dozens of examples to the contrary".
 
Barney said:
I completely disagree with this. We came within two points of winning the league with Glen Johnson, Simon Mignolet, Aly Cissokho/Jon Flanagan and Toure/Skrtel.
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In a league where 3 of the title challengers all had a change of management and one of them was a car crash.
You found your level in the CL, (which was Europa league) let's at least be honest.
 
Barney said:
If we can sign Manquillo permanently I would do that too and bring in an another fullback to replace Johnson.
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The talk of buying Montero from Real (to replace Johnson at the end of the season) is getting stronger and stronger.
 
Barney said:
I completely disagree with this. We came within two points of winning the league with Glen Johnson, Simon Mignolet, Aly Cissokho/Jon Flanagan and Toure/Skrtel.
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1. 3 points. You were a whopping 15 behind City on goal difference.

2. Chelsea bought 4 new starters in Diego Costa, Fabregas, Courtois and Felipe Luis over the summer. The first two were massive upgrades. Chelsea are on pace for 92 points this season. The 84 you amassed last year would be 8 points away. The top of the Prem is catching up to La Liga and Bayern, and over the summer Bayern replaced Mandzukic with Lewandoski and Badstuber/CB spot with Benatia. Barcelona replaced Pedro in the lineup with Luis freaking Suarez.

3. Basically, this is a question of when, not if. The big teams are adding quality players at a faster rate than they lose them to age, injuries or transfers. This summer should be the same.

4. Liverpool were not in the CL, were eliminated in an average group stage and are 18 points behind Chelsea. You probably won't end up 36 points behind, but 25ish seems likely.

There are going to be less and less upsets. Atletico, Dortmund and others have shown a team can rise without massive spending, but that doesn't mean you can have a bunch of mediocre players.

Chelsea aren't going to stop signing players. Neither are United or Citeh. Chelsea picked up 4 quality players this summer. United probably picked up at least 3 or more from the group of Di Maria, Shaw, Herrera, Falcao and Blind. Citeh's signings may or may not come good, but they'll end up with quality if they keep throwing 40 mil a year at young players like Mangala.

It's a pyramid, basically. There won't be as many Di Natales or Le Tissiers in the future starring at smaller clubs, or as many John O'Shea's and Ray Parlour's winning multiple leagues while starting. The rich will get richer.
 
Barney said:
Two new keepers have to be brought in too. I would probably focus what we have to spend here and ensure we get the best players we can get. Not arsed about spending money on the central defence to be honest. I'm not convinced that there are any attainable top centre halves. I'd persist with Sakho who I think can be a very good player and make do with someone else. If we can sign Manquillo permanently I would do that too and bring in an another fullback to replace Johnson.
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No sure a keeper is enough. Liverpool conceded 50 last year in the league and are on pace to concede 50 again. Surely the goal should be to cut that figure by at least 15. A robotic Lev Yashin himself might struggle to do that.
 
Rafateria said:
The talk of buying Montero from Real (to replace Johnson at the end of the season) is getting stronger and stronger.
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Do you mean Montoya from Barcelona? Because I've never heard of a Montero at Real Madrid...
 
gasmanc said:
In a league where 3 of the title challengers all had a change of management and one of them was a car crash.
You found your level in the CL, (which was Europa league) let's at least be honest.
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Yada yada yada. You know your excuses are bullshit. 2013/14 Points Difference over 2012/13 : City +8, Chelsea +7, Arsenal +6, Everton +9 ... only Spurs and United declined.

Every season any number of excuses can be made for why a club fails to perform to expectations and often changes of management have an immediate, positive, effect, so changes of management certainly can't be used as an excuse as they can go either way. One can't even say that buying in players XYZ will improve a team or that club ABC will be stronger after the transfer window / new management / finances improve / next season after the team matures ... or whatever reason you like. It's a constant game of musical chairs and only rarely will a team evolve beyond that for a few seasons before inevitably falling back below their prime challengers.
 
Rafateria said:
Ha ha ! Indeed I do, Swansea on the brain still and all Spanish clubs look alike ;)
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Thought so :D

I like Manquillo better than Montoya to be honest. I was a fan of the latter but he hasn't developed since he first broke through a few years ago. There's not much between the two at the minute but I think Manquillo has the higher ceiling.
 
NoPace said:
It's a pyramid, basically. There won't be as many Di Natales or Le Tissiers in the future starring at smaller clubs, or as many John O'Shea's and Ray Parlour's winning multiple leagues while starting. The rich will get richer.
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Yep. Totally agree with this. Unless UEFA find some way to restrict spending / squad size (more nationals) / control loans then that is the inevitable outcome. But what do UEFA care if their pockets continue to be lined ?
 
Bob Loblaw said:
Thought so :D

I like Manquillo better than Montoya to be honest. I was a fan of the latter but he hasn't developed since he first broke through a few years ago. There's not much between the two at the minute but I think Manquillo has the higher ceiling.
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I don't remember ever having seen him play ! Maybe I have but I don't watch too much La Liga.
 
Rafateria said:
Yada yada yada. You know your excuses are bullshit. 2013/14 Points Difference over 2012/13 : City +8, Chelsea +7, Arsenal +6, Everton +9 ... only Spurs and United declined.

Every season any number of excuses can be made for why a club fails to perform to expectations and often changes of management have an immediate, positive, effect, so changes of management certainly can't be used as an excuse as they can go either way. One can't even say that buying in players XYZ will improve a team or that club ABC will be stronger after the transfer window / new management / finances improve / next season after the team matures ... or whatever reason you like. It's a constant game of musical chairs and only rarely will a team evolve beyond that for a few seasons before inevitably falling back below their prime challengers.
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City, Chelsea, Everton all had better managers, that doesn't mean they had their teams set the way they wanted, arguably only City was a side nearing completion and they eventually won the league.
You did forget the most telling stat of all though, which is Liverpool + 23 and seeing as your now aiming for the dizzy heights of 62-65 points, it looks like your right back where you were in 2012.
How you failed last year was astonishing in the end, a striker in unplayable form, the penalties flowed, the teams all around floundered and dallied, your most hated rival faltered and yet it still managed to slip away.
Your not a team in turmoil at the minute, you've just found your way home.
 
Bob Loblaw said:
Thought so :D

I like Manquillo better than Montoya to be honest. I was a fan of the latter but he hasn't developed since he first broke through a few years ago. There's not much between the two at the minute but I think Manquillo has the higher ceiling.
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Having watched both (Manquillo especially in Atleti) i'd tend to agree. Montoya seems to have a bit of an attitude issue aswell if you choose to believe certain Barcelona circles.
 
gasmanc said:
City, Chelsea, Everton all had better managers, that doesn't mean they had their teams set the way they wanted, arguably only City was a side nearing completion and they eventually won the league.
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Deleted all the other crap from your post because it's clearly not relevant and just the usual WUM material :D

No team is ever complete so that is a real throwaway line.

You, as per 99% of United fans, need to find an excuse to cover our season because the actual truth, that we had a brilliant team and not just a world-class player, is abhorrent. Fact is your assertion that our success was down to the failure of other clubs really doesn't have a leg to stand on as this proves : 2013/14 Points Difference over 2012/13 : City +8, Chelsea +7, Arsenal +6, Everton +9.
 
Rafateria said:
I don't remember ever having seen him play ! Maybe I have but I don't watch too much La Liga.
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Depends how much you watch Barcelona, I guess. He's only played a couple of times this season, played more regularly in previous seasons but even then he was always behind Dani Alves in the pecking order.
 
Rafateria said:
Deleted all the other crap from your post because it's clearly not relevant and just the usual WUM material :D

No team is ever complete so that is a real throwaway line.

You, as per 99% of United fans, need to find an excuse to cover our season because the actual truth, that we had a brilliant team and not just a world-class player, is abhorrent. Fact is your assertion that our success was down to the failure of other clubs really doesn't have a leg to stand on as this proves : 2013/14 Points Difference over 2012/13 : City +8, Chelsea +7, Arsenal +6, Everton +9.
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Your forgetting that you've still got that "brilliant team" your only that one world class player short, Sturridge is only injured and as you've already stated in this thread injuries are just something a good coach overcomes.

Your quoted points hauls there followed a season where United won the league with a squad that Moyes finished 7th with. We have also been told that we only won the league because of Van Persies goals and because nobody else had it in them to challenge (which is partly true tbf).
Manicinis City was hardly inspiring and Di Matteos reign was followed up by a brief spell under Rafa Benitez ffs, 71 points was all that City and Chelsea could muster. Improving on that is hardly mission impossible, your probably going to need a similar haul this year to finish fourth and thus is why I don't like stats, they're completely useless without context.
I think it's fair to say that the perm has stagnated over the last 3-4 years but the tide is now turning. The top of the league once again has some of the best managers around building excellent teams to compete not just in the league but also in CL and I can't see 84 points being anywhere near enough to win the league this time round, Chelsea are already on course for 90+ despite dropping points recently.

Last year was your year and you missed it.
 
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