You underestimate the effect Europe has on a squad. We've seen at United for far too long now. Teams get tired out of their heads by the time March comes and by then it's time to kick into full, kamikaze mode for the league. This is why Fergie was lauded so much. Defying the odds getting stronger after January. Injuries are one thing, fatigue is what will affect Liverpool the most.
Liverpool 2014/15 | WARNING: Contains strong amounts of Scouse nonsense
- Thread starter Wumminator
- Start date
You only need to look at how his club Dortmund have went about their business to know that spending shitloads of money is not the only way to bring in quality in areas you need to strengthen. Last year they brought in Aubameyang, Mkhitaryan, Sahin and Sokratis for just over £50m. It's got nothing to do with Sir Alex's transfer strategy or any comparisons to City.
Dortmund have a wonderful model, yes. But we're a far bigger club financially and the desperate state of our squad meant that we were always going to pay high, as you well know.
Comparisons to City and Chelsea are absolutely relevant given that they play in the same league as us and are our closest rivals, success wise.
The reason our squad was in such a state was due to years of SAF's 'value' philosophy in direct opposition to City and Chelsea's more aggressive transfer dealings. This window was us 'playing catch up' effectively.
And with all due respect, to suggest that City or SAF are not relevant to both our current situation and our recent spending but then suggest that Dortmund's transfer dealing are somehow relevant to us is a bit off the mark, as I imagine you know really.
Of course "spending shitloads of money" isn't the only way to bring in quality, and I doubt very much that the club spent as much as they did for a laugh - they did so because our previous investments (ones based on the value that you're nodding toward) didn't really work out and we're in a much more desperate situation, as everyone knows.
Lolz, not exactly true
Lolz, not exactly true
They're the only other 2 teams who've won the PL in the last 10 years.
That's true but success wise, it's not, City's success fits comfortably on a postage stamp.
Don't forget the extra success points you get for finishing 2nd.
I agree with you. But again, I said our 'closest' rivals not 'our equals'.
To be fair, we work in different spheres than you guys. The German market is way less inflated compared to the British one and deals like the ones for Sokratis, Ramos or Ginter, which were all around the 10 Mil. € mark would be way more costly on your side. Sahin and Kagawa had both history with us, although the fee for the latter is still a joke from your perspective. Mkhitaryan was ironically chased by Pool for a long time and despite an financially better offer he let them drop like a hot potato as soon as Klopp showed clear interest in him.
I never suggested, that you are not allowed to spend big money or that this money would be "dirty" from a morale perspective, though. The only reason I would not call United´s transfer business sensible is that you overspend on pretty much every single deal. This does not hurt you that much because you have that money, but I still get the impression that you did not care much about fees and simply wanted to get the job done at every cost.
Coming back to Liverpool and their inability to sign genuine world class players: I just need to look at the world class players who transfered in recent years and where they went. What clubs outside either the absolute elite (United, Barca, Real, Bayern) or investor backed clubs (Chelsea, City, Paris, formerly Monaco) signed these kind of players? The only one that comes to mind is Arsenal, which have shown a clear intention to further invest into the team, are a constant presence in the CL for the last decade and have one of the most respected coaches in charge.
What can Liverpool offer potential targets on that level? Realistic chances for major titles and a guarantuee for the CL? No, as things stand right now Liverpool could very well turn out to be an one season wonder carried by Suarez. Rodgers has to prove at first that they can compete in the long run. Prestige? Nope. They have a rich history, but have not done enough on the big stage in the last decade. A famous coach? Rodgers has gotten respect for the way he got Pool back on track, but outside of the British press there are other young coaches who are named as prodigies/genuises before him. Unless he does something remarkable in the CL it will stay that way. Money? Not enough to make a difference. I look at what City had to offer players to get them to join and make up for the lack of International standing or what United pays Di Maria or Falcao (the two genuine world class signings). Pool would not only need to match these salaries but actually offer more to motivate targets to join. That is unrealistic.
Overall there is only one way how they can get their hands on world class players: to develop them by themself. In that sense they are in the same boat as Atletico, Juventus or Dortmund.
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It's mainly because LvG had to get these signings. United couldn't take another failed transfer window at this critical time. When things are back on track and we've secured our place in the top 4 (and probably top 3) once more, and are winning titles at least every few years, I don't think the board will be paying 120% for players anymore. For now, however, it's more important to land the necessary transfers than to get good deals on them.
And you are making this assessment on 60mins for Lallana and 75mins for Markovic ? I think it'll take a little longer than that.
Or maybe he's watched Lallana and Markovic before?
Just a possibility. It's not like they never existed before signing for Liverpool.
Good post ! Some of the WUMs on here should take note.
Is it possible to find a more biased and unreasonable assessment ? I doubt it.
Borini is #4 and Balotelli only main when Studge is out.
Well Lallana has an excellent record and Markovic is at Sterling's stage from a year or two back (despite being a year older) and both are in a new team, new formation and with new responsibilities. For Markovic a new country and language too. It will obviously take a little time to adapt, hopefully Lallana somewhat quicker, there were nice touches and signs from both yesterday.
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Ok well that was pretty horrible. However total points gained from the same 4 matches combined last season means we're still 2 points up on last season so it's important to see where we go from here rather than look back on these 4 matches.
On this one : criticism below however we should bear in mind that there were 6 new players on show with less than 3 games for club (big mistake BR) and the last thing required is a knee jerk reaction (which we'll get from the WUMs here anyway) because we had plenty of games like this last season where, even with Suarez, we failed to break down Double Decker bus defences. This is the key to our season, and for Rodgers, to find a way to unlock those defences. It didn't help that Rodgers messed up the team selection yesterday but hopefully he'll learn from that. I've no doubt we have the players, even with a few missing, to have won that match, unfortunately they will need a little more time/integration before they become comfortable in their new roles.
On the match :
Firstly credit should be given to Lambert & Villa. Lambert set them up perfectly and their defensive solidity was a template for teams in that situation. Particularly their midfield of Westwood, Delph and Cleverly, and especially their running and closing down.
The problem for Liverpool yesterday, I feel, was three-fold; initially we were far too slow moving the ball from back to front; there was a lack of space in midfield and we lacked the creativity to create that space; a lack of movement up front. The Liverpool midfield contributed to the later though with Balotelli being forced to come wider (out to our LW) to try to get on the ball leaving a gaping hole where we lacked a forward up front, playing 2 up front would solve that issue and we play far better as a team (with a much higher 'win ratio') than with a single CF, it was far too easy yesterday for Villa to mark Balotelli out of the game.
We seemed yesterday to have lost the attacking verve in midfield that opens up teams. That is Coutinho or Sterling going past 2-3 players which then commits other defenders and creates space we can exploit. I think it happened maybe once today .. and Coutinho hit the post from it. Players like Lallana and Markovic can do it too, even Allen, so I'm not too worried. However when you need to break down a team playing 5-4-1 that is more often successful than just throwing crosses into the box. Commit players and move others out of position to create those holes.
Once Lallana and Markovic are up to speed then I can see we'll have far more cutting thrust from midfield. I also think that in matches where teams sit so deep, that Coutinho isn't the right man to be sitting at #10 or point of the diamond and I'd rather see him wide and Sterling, or later maybe Lallana, in that position.
On Coutinho - He couldn't get onto the ball in the areas he can do the most damage so dropped deeper, however that is also the ideal position for him to go on his slalom runs taking out 2-3 players and creating panic and spaces ... which I haven't seen him do for a while now. That is what we need against teams sitting with banks of 4-4 or 5-4 as per yesterday. I'm not sure if that is BR training it out of him so as not to lose possession, which he will do 2 out of 3 times he tries it, or whether it's him becoming more cautious. We seem to be scared of trying those chancy but creative movements because we'll lose the ball .... which is not always a bad thing for a team that plays so well on the break. We seem to have moved back to BR's first season of possession at all costs which is not what we want to see.
Much of our play was far too slow in the first half, especially moving out from defence into midfield or even the wings, in the second it was much better with Sako/Lovren/Gerrard playing a lot more attacking forward passes.
Pity Markovic pinched that header from off Balotelli's head and that Moreno failed to see Markovic free at the back post and instead wasted the shot himself, also Coutinho hitting the post and Sterling failing to put away the rebound, any could have made a difference to the match result. We deserved a draw but can't argue too much with the defeat because Villa played excellently in defence.
There were pluses; both FBs played well and continue to show that they should both be the incumbents from now on, I quite liked the CBs play, in the 2nd half especially where I'm referring to bringing the ball out of defence and spreading the play more. Gerrard was wasted in the first half, sitting far too deep, but was so much better dictating play by pushing forward more in the 2nd. Both Markovic and Lallana showed glimpses of what they may do once they settle in. Balotelli had some nice touches too but needs to become far more of a threat.
We go again.
On this one : criticism below however we should bear in mind that there were 6 new players on show with less than 3 games for club (big mistake BR) and the last thing required is a knee jerk reaction (which we'll get from the WUMs here anyway) because we had plenty of games like this last season where, even with Suarez, we failed to break down Double Decker bus defences. This is the key to our season, and for Rodgers, to find a way to unlock those defences. It didn't help that Rodgers messed up the team selection yesterday but hopefully he'll learn from that. I've no doubt we have the players, even with a few missing, to have won that match, unfortunately they will need a little more time/integration before they become comfortable in their new roles.
On the match :
Firstly credit should be given to Lambert & Villa. Lambert set them up perfectly and their defensive solidity was a template for teams in that situation. Particularly their midfield of Westwood, Delph and Cleverly, and especially their running and closing down.
The problem for Liverpool yesterday, I feel, was three-fold; initially we were far too slow moving the ball from back to front; there was a lack of space in midfield and we lacked the creativity to create that space; a lack of movement up front. The Liverpool midfield contributed to the later though with Balotelli being forced to come wider (out to our LW) to try to get on the ball leaving a gaping hole where we lacked a forward up front, playing 2 up front would solve that issue and we play far better as a team (with a much higher 'win ratio') than with a single CF, it was far too easy yesterday for Villa to mark Balotelli out of the game.
We seemed yesterday to have lost the attacking verve in midfield that opens up teams. That is Coutinho or Sterling going past 2-3 players which then commits other defenders and creates space we can exploit. I think it happened maybe once today .. and Coutinho hit the post from it. Players like Lallana and Markovic can do it too, even Allen, so I'm not too worried. However when you need to break down a team playing 5-4-1 that is more often successful than just throwing crosses into the box. Commit players and move others out of position to create those holes.
Once Lallana and Markovic are up to speed then I can see we'll have far more cutting thrust from midfield. I also think that in matches where teams sit so deep, that Coutinho isn't the right man to be sitting at #10 or point of the diamond and I'd rather see him wide and Sterling, or later maybe Lallana, in that position.
On Coutinho - He couldn't get onto the ball in the areas he can do the most damage so dropped deeper, however that is also the ideal position for him to go on his slalom runs taking out 2-3 players and creating panic and spaces ... which I haven't seen him do for a while now. That is what we need against teams sitting with banks of 4-4 or 5-4 as per yesterday. I'm not sure if that is BR training it out of him so as not to lose possession, which he will do 2 out of 3 times he tries it, or whether it's him becoming more cautious. We seem to be scared of trying those chancy but creative movements because we'll lose the ball .... which is not always a bad thing for a team that plays so well on the break. We seem to have moved back to BR's first season of possession at all costs which is not what we want to see.
Much of our play was far too slow in the first half, especially moving out from defence into midfield or even the wings, in the second it was much better with Sako/Lovren/Gerrard playing a lot more attacking forward passes.
Pity Markovic pinched that header from off Balotelli's head and that Moreno failed to see Markovic free at the back post and instead wasted the shot himself, also Coutinho hitting the post and Sterling failing to put away the rebound, any could have made a difference to the match result. We deserved a draw but can't argue too much with the defeat because Villa played excellently in defence.
There were pluses; both FBs played well and continue to show that they should both be the incumbents from now on, I quite liked the CBs play, in the 2nd half especially where I'm referring to bringing the ball out of defence and spreading the play more. Gerrard was wasted in the first half, sitting far too deep, but was so much better dictating play by pushing forward more in the 2nd. Both Markovic and Lallana showed glimpses of what they may do once they settle in. Balotelli had some nice touches too but needs to become far more of a threat.
We go again.
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I'm not one that generally cares about how our rivals play or how they are doing but I was watching the Villa game the other day and it was just a game they would have won with Suarez in the team. He provided that something extra when they couldn't break teams down and they have no one that can do that apart from Sterling right now. I think Liverpool fans will face the harsh reality of losing one of the best players in the world that was winning these type of games for them.
You will be chased out of here with pitch forks for that kind of reality.
I think they might do a 'Tottenham', buying lot of players from Suarez money (like Spurs did with Bale money) but not adding much of quality to the team, just squad players who wont turn them better. And they don't have Suarez now who was a X factor in that team.
I could be wrong though of course.
2 defeats already and CL hasn't even started. It will be a tricky year I think.
I could be wrong though of course.
2 defeats already and CL hasn't even started. It will be a tricky year I think.
So, the issues we've been trying to explain to Liverpool fans all summer are clear as day now, surely?
We told them no Europe last year was a huge advantage. Playing once a week. Yesterday we see Sterling on the bench with a midweek game in mind.
And the big one, no Suarez. It's not bad having Sturridge out all the time if you have Suarez in your side. But both out and Liverpool look blunt as hell up front and weak at the back. Not a great mix.
Finally, there's the continuity issue. Something van Gaal has to deal with. New players getting to know one another's game. Last year Liverpool were very settled. Now Rodgers has brought in Southampton and other squad players, they will take time to gel. Lallana looked poor. Markovic and balotelli looked on completely different wave-lengths.
We told them no Europe last year was a huge advantage. Playing once a week. Yesterday we see Sterling on the bench with a midweek game in mind.
And the big one, no Suarez. It's not bad having Sturridge out all the time if you have Suarez in your side. But both out and Liverpool look blunt as hell up front and weak at the back. Not a great mix.
Finally, there's the continuity issue. Something van Gaal has to deal with. New players getting to know one another's game. Last year Liverpool were very settled. Now Rodgers has brought in Southampton and other squad players, they will take time to gel. Lallana looked poor. Markovic and balotelli looked on completely different wave-lengths.
You are the WUM.
Aye, that's got to be a worry for our resident scousers.
Reality is starting to kick in and last year was their golden chance to win the league and they blew it.
They scored 17 goals in 91 appearances between them last season so I don't think it's a ludicrous suggestion. From what I've seen of them before I don't see much direct goal threat there. With Lallana I don't think that's an unfair comment at all because I've saw him live for club and country and I've watched a fair bit of Southampton over the past couple of seasons. I've obviously seen a lot less of Markovic but I think his game against Juve kind of sums him up at the moment - lots of good stuff at both ends but a lack of end product.
Really? 12 goals and 14 assists from his two seasons in the Premiership.
He's a decent player but not at the level you need, and he seems too slow on and off the ball for the way Rodgers wants you to play. What are you expecting from him over the next couple of seasons - will he get in your starting eleven?
Tumbleweed.gif
Another trophy for LvG. Two to him and zero for us Im gutted. And their world class man of the match: Rio.
Liverpool
Can't believe you bit at that
Nomnomnom, now just waiting for the 'were back!' bit.
A long winded, we was shit.
Good analysis though.
I've just found out that Agger went to Brondby. Some drop from being linked with Barcelona.
How about this one....
Lallana has an excellent record? I'd say that has to be bias talking over his career he's got a 1 in 4 games goal ratio and has played for the senior internationals less than 10 times. Last season was his pique when he was short listed for the player of the year, but he is some distance behind the great attacking midfielders, including Sterling at your club.
To say Markovic is Sterling v2 is unreasonable, Sterling's impact (huge talent aside) was that he had a couple of seasons learning the Liverpool way in your reserves/ youth bug he was pulling up trees because he was that good, no matter how raw he was he looked special (as did our Januzaj) Sterling has polished immensely but No matter how good Markovic will be to say he's Sterling of even two years back is wrong.
Do you really think that Lallana will be an improvement to your team (either for coutinho, sterling or Henderson in the diamond??) honest question.
Here's another couple.
Show me a worse oppo poster on this board, this fella makes Glaston look good.
(I just want to get your opinion). The article in the Telegraph is titled "Money restores the swagger to Old Trafford". I feel like Liverpool have become victims of football capitalism(not that your club lacks funds by any strech of the imagination). There's the high end of which United have decided to join,seemingly the only way to challenge City and Chelsea. Extreme spenditure so to speak. Liverpool just cant compete I feel(or wont?). You guys lose Suarez and there we are with Falcao on the bench and dont forget about that 30m left back(not even mentioning the 27m Belgian mop). You guys on the other hand suffer an injury to your main man and a 4m 'journeyman'(league 1,2 and championship) is your solution. How do you guys compete going forward? I just think it must be a bit harrowing watching Falcao nervously biting on his fingernails on the Old Trafford bench whilsts your own world class marksman decided to pack his bags. (not a wind up,seriously)
A bit like Renia. He was linked with £20mil moves a couple of time and they ended up practically giving him away. Maybe Agger just isn't physically up to playing at the top with his back injury history.
How can Liverpool be the victims here?
They were the first top flight team to go with a shirt sponsor.
They were the first English team to tap into the Asian market by going there on tour.
They were the first team to pay a player £10k a week-John Barnes.
They were founding members of G14.
They were as big a spenders as anybody in British football in the 70s/80s-generated themselves.
etc etc etc.
If they are victims of capitalism its because of their own dreadful decisions over the years in terms of spending and not developing a ground that is fit for a big club. As a big club in the early 90s is was all set up for them. They just didnt make the right choices.
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Thank you. I was looking for somebody to sum up whats happened to Liverpool in the past 20 odd years and how they didnt fully capitalise on their standing. "Victims" is probably the wrong term. I was just making the point of how they've been left behind. I really appreaciate your facts(none of which I knew as you can tell).
I am not sure why Liverpool fans keep using money this season as a stick to try and beat United with. What is so different by this season? We have had a few transfer windows where we have failed to act and as a result of this we have now been forced to buy several players (and release several others) all in one go. As it has happened we also decided to purchase one of the best attacking midfielders in the world in Di Maria, who cost us a record fee.
Are Liverpool fans arguing that it is unfair we have spent money? Or that we should not have made wholesale changes to a squad they have been keen to tell us for the past few years was past its best and not up to scratch?
United can't seem to win whatever they do but do you know what, I love it and always have. It is all down to jealously and how the club is run. The money we earn is ours through sponsorship and revenue, not gifted to us from elsewhere. We also manage to service our debt.
The media have even tried to say United no longer give youth a chance yet Mancunian Tyler Blackett has been an ever present all season and a 19 year old Januzaj has featured every game. Thats not even mentioning Jonny Evans, Rafael and the likes of James Wilson and Periera who have forced their way into the first team squads.
Show me another club in the top bracket that can boast that when it comes to youth and young players.
Are Liverpool fans arguing that it is unfair we have spent money? Or that we should not have made wholesale changes to a squad they have been keen to tell us for the past few years was past its best and not up to scratch?
United can't seem to win whatever they do but do you know what, I love it and always have. It is all down to jealously and how the club is run. The money we earn is ours through sponsorship and revenue, not gifted to us from elsewhere. We also manage to service our debt.
The media have even tried to say United no longer give youth a chance yet Mancunian Tyler Blackett has been an ever present all season and a 19 year old Januzaj has featured every game. Thats not even mentioning Jonny Evans, Rafael and the likes of James Wilson and Periera who have forced their way into the first team squads.
Show me another club in the top bracket that can boast that when it comes to youth and young players.