Good reminder to ignore most of the opinions we hear about players we're interested in
Lisandro Martinez | Signs for United
- Thread starter darioterios
- Start date
- Status
i know it might not bode well for the future but it's a great that a player is trying to force a move to us, someone who actually wants to be here.
Broadly I have no issue with this.
For one, I think the manager should be able to select the preferred targets as long the club's scouting department also approves of them. They might prefer someone else but as long as they're not actively against Martinez as an option that's fine. And I don't think they would be given Martinez' calibre and relatively reasonable price which is attracting rival clubs like Arsenal anyway.
And also while I very much like Torres as a CB and would have liked to see him here, he actually shares the same question mark people have over Martinez in terms of aerial ability despite being significantly taller. But more importantly from my POV, he's a more passive style of defender which I don't think complements our other CBs as much as Martinez' more aggressive approach.
And on a broader point while I generally agree with @Massive Spanner that we shouldn't just be relying on the manager, the specific context of this transfer window is slightly different as we got rid of our two chief scouts literally right before it opened as part of an apparent move to overhaul a scouting structure we don't think is up to scratch. In that context I'm not sure how much faith we should be placing in our scouting department right now as a basis for overuling the manager, at least in terms of his preference among good options.
So Erik Ten Hag prefers a pretty specific style of football - a way that often demands players schooled in this styled. It makes sense that he brings in players that already knows it to make the transition possible? When the style is established - its easier to bring other players on.
And that's with VVD playing for a fellow PL side, the league most people on here watch the most. Imagine them trying to rate him through the haze of barely having seen him play in a different league.
I don't agree with the whole SAF and United agenda. SAF was a complete story apart that was very different to any other manager or team out there. We werent as good as we once were, but how we won the league and even how we played Real Madrid in the CL, I am sure SAF would keep competing in the following years like he's always done.
That team was fine for him, but not fine for a succeeder and especially not for Moyes.
As for Ajax, we are likely going to replicate Martinez with Wijndal indirectly, a big transfer. We are indirectly replacing Haller with Bergwijn I presume and shifting Tadic central. Gravenberch will be replaced by Klaassen/Taylor/Kudus, which is a downgrade yes but there's still a lot possible. We still have Berghuis and Antony, with youngsters like Daramy, Unuvar, Ihatarren, Rasmussen, van Axel Dongen behind them. Mazraoui is a big loss, whether you replace him with Regeer/Rensch or a new signing. But still, I think Ajax has easily the best squad, and the most depth. Anything other than expecting the title would be too little especially with PSV having a new manager as well, losing Zahavi/Gotze and who knows what will happen to Sangare and Gakpo.
We walked the league in SAF last year and he had Ronaldo lined up for a return before his wife’s friend (?) died. I’m sure he was comfortable facing Mancini and fecking City
Couldn't have been more wrong on SAF and it's amazing how people are so ignorant about his ability or mentality.
You’ve blocked all who didn’t agree with your VVF assessment?
I would back anyone over our crap recruiting department
Good post, sums up my thoughts as well. We don't want this to be the norm, but it's not exactly an issue in this context.
The best thing about Martinez is that if we sign him and De Jong then he's our new CB. If we cant get De Jong then he's our new DM with Eriksen playing alongside him. Best of both worlds.
Except that you're completely wrong, sure.
If ETH wants him then that is enough for me
I do have this little fear that he'd turn out to be like Rojo but he seems to be more composed/disciplined in his aggression rather than rash like Marcos. Plus technically more sound
I wonder if we'll see him in DM at some point in the season. It's not a given that he'll only play CB right? Did he play DM at all at Ajax?
I do have this little fear that he'd turn out to be like Rojo but he seems to be more composed/disciplined in his aggression rather than rash like Marcos. Plus technically more sound
I wonder if we'll see him in DM at some point in the season. It's not a given that he'll only play CB right? Did he play DM at all at Ajax?
Rojo's biggest problems were his injury record and being a rubbish left-back, he usually performed well as a centre-back and his rashness was never punished.
Rojo was dogshit
Loved the short term Ro-Jo partnership too.
When FSG hired Klopp, they hired him to lead the football department as manager and not as the head coach from what Mike Gordon has said. And it was Klopp who installed the much criticised Michael Edwards as the Sporting director.
Mane absolutely did fit into Brendan Rodgers' style of play imo. Rodgers also coached a modern play style with a view to transitioning play quickly with high intensity, which Mane was a fit for. And tbh with you, Mane fits into any approach imo. And below are direct quotes from Klopp when Mane signed for Liverpool.
"Liverpool manager Jurgen Klopp revealed he had been tracking Mane "since his impressive performances in the Olympics in 2012"
"Since I came here I have spoken to the staff a lot about him and have always felt he could be a very good signing for us," the 49-year-old German added"
https://www.bbc.com/sport/football/36642523
Below is a hit piece by Duncan Castles, where he absolutely ravages both Rodgers and Edwards and also points to how Mane was deemed not good enough by the Graham model. Quotes below.
Duncan Castles: "When Red Bull Salzburg were looking for a buyer for Sadio Mane in the summer, Liverpool were one of the clubs approached. Graham's analysis indicated the Senegal international wasn't good enough, so Mane ended up at Southampton instead (paid for with a fraction of the money Rodgers channelled to the South Coast club for Adam Lallana, Dejan Lovren and Lambert)."
https://bleacherreport.com/articles...sfer-committee-has-been-a-spectacular-failure
What truly changed their fate was what they did in subsequent seasons, but in Klopp and Edwards first full season as head coach and Sporting director, they targeted players Klopp was mostly familiar with, that were either from the Austrian/German Bundesliga or associated to one of the countries. So I can only make the comparison with Liverpool from the summer of 2016, and with us in the current window. I also think we will sign players next season (maybe even this season) who won't have any ties to ten Hag or the Dutch League. We had Darwin Nunez as a target reportedly who we missed out on, and he wasn't associated to either ten Hag or the Dutch League. But I do think it's the correct move to target players that the head coach is familiar with to build the foundation of the team. And from what I know, it's not easy for players to understand the requirements of vertical positional play and it takes time to implement. So it's wise to sign players who do understand the concept which would in theory speed up the coaching process on the training ground for players who aren't familiar with zonal and positional control.
Data is useful if applied correctly imo, which can help in the decision making process. But data can also be misinterpreted and mistakes can be made. And if it wasn't for Jurgen Klopp, I suspect the narrative around Michael Edwards and the Liverpool recruitment/data departments would be very different now. So being guided by Klopp was the true driving force for Liverpool, which made the football departments supporting him a lot more effective.
Last edited:
They most likely did not even know him
That and our dressing room was toxic. He’s bringing in not only good players but also players he knows that are off good character
Couldn't agree with this more. I actually said when ETH joined, he had a bit of a blank canvas as a positive, but it also means he needs to be sure the players he brings in will do as he asks straight away. So it is a challenge to navigate the market in light of so many gaps in the squad and implementing a new play style.
Same with the Brobbey link, even if he isn't our long term CF , he knows what's expected of him and others will have to follow suit if they want to displace him.
But it does not make much sense buying a CB now. That does not look like a priority to me. May be bargain deal yes but not for 50 million. We have holes in the midfield and in the attack and I would say RB position probably needs fix before CB.
I believe we are buying him to play as DM if needed or one of 3 CBs. Does Eth prefer 5 at the back otherwise I hope we are selling one of Lindelof/Maguire.
The rebuild isn't starting out too well eh
How much would Pau Torres cost.
We could get him for that according to Romano. He doesn’t play in Holland though.
And isn't as good
Ajax clearly don't want to sell as this bid is more than enough so we better let go of this Ajax/Dutch thing its clearly not working.
Okay that's enough, on to the next target. Preferably not Torres though
Figure that if we're really in for Brobbey that would have reverberations with the other Ajax targets we have...
Am sure you've seen at least a dozen games of both of them.
You would be correct, Torres is not aggressive enough
They wanted 50m plus add-ons. This bid was 50m including add-ons.
That's life I guess. I still feel we need a right back and screening midfielder more anyway (although I'm aware Martinez can play as a midfield anchor man).
Bit of an odd statement considering that we haven't signed any of their players yet. Talking to Ajax surely isn't that big of deal either.
Right but Martinez isn't perfect either and he's clearly not for sale.
It's only worth getting rinsed on price for a proven quantity in my opinion, someone who offers an almost guaranteed success.
To me there's still a huge question mark over whether he's likely to be our long term first choice centre back, I really don't think it's worth getting ripped off on a player of his profile.
- Status