Lisandro Martinez | Signs for United

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Mr PG said:
Lisandro will make a bigger difference to our team than even FDJ imo. Being e defensive player and very tenacious… qualities in short supply in our team. Eriksen, Garner and other number 8’s kinda make up for some of FDJ qualities though not as good.
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Wow... this is something, isn't it?
I just find splashing almost half of our budget on a 6th CB idiotic. I know it's quality than quantity, but who's going to be left out? Maguire? I am not his biggest fan at all, it's a 80million captain we are speaking here. Varane? He is supposed to be our best defender and some of the world's best.
Yes, I will say again he's short. That wouldn't considered me much, if we had money to get ST, RB and 2 CMs. And even wouldn't bother me the last season. But considering that our main rivals signed forwards of 2ms height - its like doing them a favor in signing 1.75 defender, isn't it?
 
Teja said:
Been noodling with this idea as well but we really need a RWB to get it to work and I'm not convinced Dalot is the guy there.

---------- Lindelof --- Varane --- Martinez --------
---- Dalot ------ Fred ----- FdJ ------- Shaw ---------
---------------- Bruno --------- Sancho ------------------
-------------------------- Ronaldo ----------------------------

I still don't think you can get away with playing Eriksen + FdJ through the middle. Jorginho / Kova or Jorginho / Kante is the right model for us to look at. Bruno in the Mason Mount role where he'll excel.

Anyway, our interest in Antony makes it a moot point. We'll play 4-2-3-1 - players know the formation, know their roles etc. If we were going 5-3-2 I think we'd be signing a RWB over a RW player.
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Yeah I felt something like this should work with our current players with perhaps Laird over Dalot, he is a proper RWB. I think Antony will be tough to being from Ajax, they'll ask for too much and we might have to look at Ronaldo's replacement as well
 
pocco said:
There's a video in this thread somewhere of him being smoked for pace by what is apparently a player not known for his pace. It was over 30-40 yards or so, so I'm hoping he's agile and quick over smaller distances. But the thought of a high line with him and our current CBs is a bit worrying. ETH obviously trusts him, but he has noted he's not the quickest player himself.
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So pretty slow and weak in the air. Worrying for the PL.
 
VanDeBank said:
Not happy with the reported fee.

He's short, not brilliant on the ball (good passer with time and space, but breaks down when under pressure). He's quickish but not lighting fast.
Sound like a player you get for 30million tops.
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Still going this one :lol:
 
FrankWhite said:
How many possession teams play back three though? These type of teams, you usually want more players comfortable on the ball and that doesn't happen by adding more centre backs. Also, the outside centre backs usually have some speed because they are really pseudo-full backs. Martinez isn't fast so don't think he's best suited to the back three.

Don't get me, in ETH we trust either way, just trying to understand the plan.
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I think Pep and Sarri have tried this at times. it depends if CBs are really good on the ball, they have the most time and space on the pitch and if they are brilliant footballers then it can be an option. Also one doesnt need a pure Dm with this setup as well.

I think Martinez is pretty fast. Not maybe rapid like Axel but he is plenty fast to play that role. He has played full back at times as well so he should be fine
 
Flexdegea said:
Still going this one :lol:
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It's my first post in this thread and I watch Ajax regularly. He's obviously better than the likes of Maguire, but he's no VVD or a few other high end CB that have the ability to smoothly beat the press and get out of tight spots. He's more of a no nonsense type of player.
 
avgp_1 said:
I think Pep and Sarri have tried this at times. it depends if CBs are really good on the ball, they have the most time and space on the pitch and if they are brilliant footballers then it can be an option. Also one doesnt need a pure Dm with this setup as well.

I think Martinez is pretty fast. Not maybe rapid like Axel but he is plenty fast to play that role. He has played full back at times as well so he should be fine
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Like you said at times so you're looking at a handful of games not 40-50 games in the season. It's not a formation Ten Hag has ever used consistently
Maguire and Varane will fight for that RCB spot with Martinez playing at LCB.
 
VanDeBank said:
It's my first post in this thread and I watch Ajax regularly. He's obviously better than the likes of Maguire, but he's no VVD or a few other high end CB that have the ability to smoothly beat the press and get out of tight spots. He's more of a no nonsense type of player.
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That does sound a bit like Rojo. How do those two compare in your opinion?
 
This transfer still worries me. Lindelof and Maguire lack pace, now we add another player, Martinez with the same issue. In addition, Arsenal were looking at him to cover LB and LCB, he wasn't coming in to be a starter for them yet it looks like we are targeting him to be a starter. Heck, he doesn't even start all the time for Argentina. Despite his progressive attributes, this transfer does worry me going into the season, especially with the size of the fee.
 
hellhunter said:
That does sound a bit like Rojo. How do those two compare in your opinion?
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Martinez is good at the fundamentals of defending and reads the game well. Rojo was a passionate idiot.
His passing is also much better. (Sorta like Lindelof at his best).

Martinez is actually quite comparable to Ake.

I'd have preferred it if our scouts found a left footed CB with a higher ceiling. Odds are, our scouts are shit and ETH doesn't trust them rather than them not being available. I like Martinez, I just think we're about to overpay.
 
Kingslayer18 said:
This transfer still worries me. Lindelof and Maguire lack pace, now we add another player, Martinez with the same issue. In addition, Arsenal were looking at him to cover LB and LCB, he wasn't coming in to be a starter for them yet it looks like we are targeting him to be a starter. Heck, he doesn't even start all the time for Argentina. Despite his progressive attributes, this transfer does worry me going into the season, especially with the size of the fee.
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If you confident arsenal know how to use him then I'm really sure you are very confident Hag knows how to definitely use him
 
The last thing we need to do is buy another decent but not brilliant centre half. We already have several. Strikers however, we currently have none as Ronaldo ain't coming back.
 
I quite like the signing, if only because his weaknesses show the kind of team Ten Hag wants to build. If you are going to put a CB like this into the Prem, he’s going to need to be well protected/utilised by the surrounding system.
 
For me personally it only makes sense if we’re signing him to play in a back 3 or using him as a DM.

Spending £40m on a seemingly decent/average CB just seems a waste to me.. especially when there’s other areas of the squad that need work and we the fact we seem to be short on funds.
 
sglowrider said:
But like ETH's position at United, Schreuder can come in almost with a new slate and with lower expectations. He will have a lot more $$ and can afford to buy the players that suit his system?
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Doesnt work like that at Ajax, Schreuder has to win the league.

Also the issues at Ajax arent the same as in other leagues. It is nearly impossible for Ajax to improve on Mazraoui, Martinez, Antony, Gravenberch. Regardless of how much money is in the bank. Players that would be an improvement, wouldnt join Ajax and would join bigger teams and bigger leagues. Unless they are some very rare hidden gems or are ending their careers.
 
sewey89 said:
Is he worth the money mate? I’ll hold my hands up and say other than him being class on football manager a couple of years ago and him still shopping in the boys 7-16 section in Primark , I know nothing about him
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A bit difficult to say, I think he's worth that fee more than Donny, Fred, Lindelof and even Varane to be honest.

He will improve us a lot and is very versatile.
 
It seem's like Ten Hag wants to speed up the process of overhauling the team. Martinez plays in Maguire's position, and is 5'9...

He must want to go full Ten Hag ball from day one if we're bringing this guy in.
 
GledTheRed said:
Please do.
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Comparing performances levels from one to another. Also cross comparing international football to club footbal (very daft). Finally going on to insinuate Martinez is weak.
 
VP89 said:
Comparing performances levels from one to another. Also cross comparing international football to club footbal (very daft). Finally going on to insinuate Martinez is weak.
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While all of that is true, is it really that outlandish that Maguire might be better than Martinez (how this all started)
 
Elcabron said:
The last thing we need to do is buy another decent but not brilliant centre half. We already have several. Strikers however, we currently have none as Ronaldo ain't coming back.
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We are very weak up top but it could be that ETH sees defenders and midfielders as more important to implement the style of play. Besides he's looking at the long term- building a new team over the next few years and not just this window.
 
hellhunter said:
While all of that is true, is it really that outlandish that Maguire might be better than Martinez (how this all started)
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Should ask the question of who is a more integral cog in the Ten Hag system.

Jose Mourinhos set up would make Maguire shine over most options. Martinez would shine more for Ten Hag's system.
 
Kingslayer18 said:
This transfer still worries me. Lindelof and Maguire lack pace, now we add another player, Martinez with the same issue. In addition, Arsenal were looking at him to cover LB and LCB, he wasn't coming in to be a starter for them yet it looks like we are targeting him to be a starter. Heck, he doesn't even start all the time for Argentina. Despite his progressive attributes, this transfer does worry me going into the season, especially with the size of the fee.
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Your response worries me, this is a player ten hag has worked with over a number of years. If he wants him then i trust him.
 
VP89 said:
Should ask the question of who is a more integral cog in the Ten Hag system.

Jose Mourinhos set up would make Maguire shine over most options. Martinez would shine more for Ten Hag's system.
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That's a good point tbh, the way coach sets up team is very important and decides which player is better.
 
I think the most prudent thing to do when determining how Martinez will be used by Erik ten Hag is to wait and see what the team looks like during pre-season. Whilst it is obviously the best tool available right now, I'm not sure how accurately one could predict United's team by simply translating what EtH did with Ajax because he is a manager who very much adapts his formations and to an extent even playing styles to the squad available to him and the merits of his side relative to the rest of the division they're competing in.

I think this video by TIFO does a great job of demonstrating why it is unlikely that anybody has a complete grasp on how ten Hag will line us up next season.
 
acnumber9 said:
At some point people will realise international football is not a barometer anymore. 90% of his international matches are considerably easier than any Premier League game.
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I agree. Many of our players have been great in their respective NT even during poor patches in the club. Same goes for Dutch league, not a good barometer for how well a player will play in the PL.
 
Adnan said:
Matip, Klavan, Karius, Manninger were players signed from the German Bundesliga. Sadio Mane was a player Klopp pushed for due to the player being associated to the RedBull club in Austria and he was well versed in understanding the heavy metal approach of Jurgen Klopp. Klopp went ahead and signed Mane after it was reported Liverpool's data department had deemed Mane to be not good enough via the Graham model. Wijnaldum was the only player that didn't have a link to either the German or Austrian Bundesliga.

Paratici has mainly signed players from one club in his first season at Spurs and those are his ex Juve players like Romero, Kulesevski and Bentacur for a reported combined fee in excess of a 100m. And the targets within the UK are being negotiated by Levi because it's said in some quarters that Paratici isn't as well versed in the English market.
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I admire your patience to write and explain things that are clearly available for people who are too stubborn (at best) to google them and prove themselves wrong...
 
AjaxCunian said:
Doesnt work like that at Ajax, Schreuder has to win the league.

Also the issues at Ajax arent the same as in other leagues. It is nearly impossible for Ajax to improve on Mazraoui, Martinez, Antony, Gravenberch. Regardless of how much money is in the bank. Players that would be an improvement, wouldnt join Ajax and would join bigger teams and bigger leagues. Unless they are some very rare hidden gems or are ending their careers.
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Couldnt they target the CL like one-club leagues like Bayern and PSG? But interesting fact nevertheless.
 
I don’t really care about his height stuff, but reading some posters calling him slow (or not particularly quick) is a little bit worrying.
 
Everyone want to see signing we potentially getting someone the manager wants suddenly all the experts comes out the woodwork. Height experts, forensic accountants, best scouts who knows the player abilities pace and awareness. Psychologist about his mental abilities of his lack of, who are certain he will not cope with the pressure of the league. Instant success glory entitlement hunters who will jump at the manager throat if he so lose one preseason match. What’s more worrying is how our fans turned into snowflakes.
 
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VanDeBank said:
Not happy with the reported fee.

He's short, not brilliant on the ball (good passer with time and space, but breaks down when under pressure). He's quickish but not lighting fast.
Sound like a player you get for 30million tops.
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I've said all along when you want a player that the selling club doesn't want to sell and the selling club has the leverage of a long term contract, you are going to have to pay a premium to get it done. The same applies to Antony. If you're going to get him, it will be for €70m-€80m and not for €60m.

I love Martinez and he'll definitely bring agressiveness to your side. I don't agree he breaks down under pressure. Sometimes he simply refuses to take risks, other times he will stay ice cold when players are chasing him down. Most defenders who are calm on the ball, tend to miscalculate every now and then and then make a big mistake. I actually don't recall these with Martinez. I think he's really found a solid balace in staying calm and resisting pressure and deciding when he shouldn't take risks.

On the other side he does have a few weaknesses. I wouldn't call him slow, but he's not the quickest. Sometimes he takes stupid yellow cards by being aggressive at the wrong time (half way line tackles) and obviously he is not very tall. Nevertheless he's strong in the air for a player his height. But put him against Lukaku/Zlatan types obviously he's going to struggle with crosses. But guess what, that's why he's a €40-50m player and not an €80-100m player. PL fans should really stop acting like €50m is a lot of money for players they don't know that well, whilst accepting ridiculous fees for PL players. Martinez is better than Mings or Dier, but they would probably be regarded cheap for €50m. Saying €50m is expensive is BS as long as ridiculous fees are paid for average PL players. Harry Maguire being the biggest example for that and £80m Harry is going to be benched for this €50m guy now, unless EtH switches to a back three (which I don't think is likely). :lol: :lol: :lol:
 
I never seen a whole country being obsessed with single player like Dutch people with Maguire. It's so weird.
 
roonster09 said:
I never seen a whole country being obsessed with single player like Dutch people with Maguire. It's so weird.
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He took Van Dijk status as most expensive center back, I don't know why they are insecure about that.
 
Teja said:
Surely he gets some leeway this season given how many key players left?
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Feyenoord (who are never in the running, really) have lost their two best players and will continue to lose a few more as they’re kind of broke; PSV are the only direct competition and they’ve hired Ruud as their manager and this is his first senior coaching gig. Standards are super high at Ajax like their fans have said, a 2nd place finish will probably be a disappointment
 
Daslogisch said:
I've said all along when you want a player that the selling club doesn't want to sell and the selling club has the leverage of a long term contract, you are going to have to pay a premium to get it done. The same applies to Antony. If you're going to get him, it will be for €70m-€80m and not for €60m.

I love Martinez and he'll definitely bring agressiveness to your side. I don't agree he breaks down under pressure. Sometimes he simply refuses to take risks, other times he will stay ice cold when players are chasing him down. Most defenders who are calm on the ball, tend to miscalculate every now and then and then make a big mistake. I actually don't recall these with Martinez. I think he's really found a solid balace in staying calm and resisting pressure and deciding when he shouldn't take risks.

On the other side he does have a few weaknesses. I wouldn't call him slow, but he's not the quickest. Sometimes he takes stupid yellow cards by being aggressive at the wrong time (half way line tackles) and obviously he is not very tall. Nevertheless he's strong in the air for a player his height. But put him against Lukaku/Zlatan types obviously he's going to struggle with crosses. But guess what, that's why he's a €40-50m player and not an €80-100m player. PL fans should really stop acting like €50m is a lot of money for players they don't know that well, whilst accepting ridiculous fees for PL players. Martinez is better than Mings or Dier, but they would probably be regarded cheap for €50m. Saying €50m is expensive is BS as long as ridiculous fees are paid for average PL players. Harry Maguire being the biggest example for that and £80m Harry is going to be benched for this €50m guy now, unless EtH switches to a back three (which I don't think is likely). :lol: :lol: :lol:
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1. Thank you captain obvious, and

2. No they wouldn't.

We were laughing our ass off at Arse spending 50m on Ben White a year ago and Mings is nowhere near his level. Regarded by the English media, maybe. Definitely not by the football fans.

Harry Maguire is an anomaly. Using his 80 million fee as a benchmark is silly. You wouldn't use 120million for Coutinho either. These are outliers, because the buying club overpaid big time. This isn't controversial.

I don't think Ake was cheap for 50m and I think he's comparable to Martinez. I don't think it's a great deal, but you're right it's not a ludicrous fee either.
 
Adnan said:
Matip, Klavan, Karius, Manninger were players signed from the German Bundesliga. Sadio Mane was a player Klopp pushed for due to the player being associated to the RedBull club in Austria and he was well versed in understanding the heavy metal approach of Jurgen Klopp. Klopp went ahead and signed Mane after it was reported Liverpool's data department had deemed Mane to be not good enough via the Graham model. Wijnaldum was the only player that didn't have a link to either the German or Austrian Bundesliga.

Paratici has mainly signed players from one club in his first season at Spurs and those are his ex Juve players like Romero, Kulesevski and Bentacur for a reported combined fee in excess of a 100m. And the targets within the UK are being negotiated by Levi because it's said in some quarters that Paratici isn't as well versed in the English market.
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https://bleacherreport.com/articles...sfer-committee-has-been-a-spectacular-failure

It's somewhat understandable that they didn't go for him after his redbull days. Mane did get better at Southampton, Pool ended up hiring Klopp and maybe Mane didn't fit the team's style before but he fit right in after Klopp came in.

I also don't think they signed Mane from Southampton just because Klopp said so (overruling the transfer committee). Would love to see some sources if this was true.

Pool did buy a bunch of players from the Bundesliga but they were very cheap (Karius 5M, Klavan 4M, Matip free, Manninger free). Nothing similar to what we're doing right now with Martinez and Antony.

What truly changed their fate were the purchases of VVD, Salah and Robertson - none of whom had any ties to the German league.
 
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